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I have recently been testing a Dark Eldar army at 1000 points and have been making some tweaks to it. The theme is a Haemonculus coven. My original list had:

-Archon-Agonizer, Shadowfield, Phantasm Grenade launcher- 135
-Haemonculus-venom blade and shattershard- 70
-Incubi (4) in venom- 163
-10 Wracks 2 liquifiers in raider w/ flickerfield- 190
-9 Wracks 1 liquifier in Raider w/ ff-170
-Ravager with ff- 115
-Razorwing with ff- 155

Total: 998

I give the army list to allow for some context here. So far I have found the Archon to be incredibly disappointing. He seems to be a paper tiger. Even with six attacks on the charge, he is mathematically getting 2 wounds on an average opponent. Not too great. I tried the Husblade/Soultrap and found that underwhelming as well. I like the grenade launcher because it benefits the Incubi, but the unit essentially becomes a mini deathstar. Overall, I haven't seen what all the hooplah about the Archon is really about.

If I dropped the Archon, I could afford another Incubi and a Haemonculus Ancient with Agonizer and Liquifier and 5 points left. My question: Is a Haemonculus Ancient worth it? In the context of this list or in general.

Looking over the statline, the Ancient does have some nice benefits over a normal Haemonculus. On the charge (with an Agonizer) the Ancient would be getting 5 attacks at I6 (with 2 tokens mind you). Not too different than the Archon. The lack of durability versus the Archon seems to be a problem, but in actuality, it depends on the opponent. While the Archon is a bit more suited to fighting the big nasties, he is basically counting on the 2++. I have seen it fail so much. St 6 is dead to rights and even a normal failure is catastrophic as he has no survivability versus normal attacks.

I'll have to playtest the Ancient, but until then, any experienced DE players or opponents have any take on him? Is the HM worth it? What is the best loadout? Thanks Dakka.

No wonder the archon does not work for you. Where is his backup? He should be hitting with other high inisiative. Grab some wytches for some of those wracks so that they can charge in as well if need be. Also, the razorwing seems like a huge investment at sutch a low point. The ravager would do better.

Also, perhaps give the arcon a blaster instead of a gun, so he can open up things before you charge in.

No wonder the archon does not work for you. Where is his backup? He should be hitting with other high inisiative. Grab some wytches for some of those wracks so that they can charge in as well if need be. Also, the razorwing seems like a huge investment at sutch a low point. The ravager would do better.

Also, perhaps give the arcon a blaster instead of a gun, so he can open up things before you charge in.

Well, he has been riding with the Incubi...that's about the best backup he can get. I don't think the Blaster would be worth it. Popping tanks is no real issue here. There are 7 Lances in the list. Not an incredibly high number but still enough to handle armor at 1000 points.

As to the Ravager versus the Raider, I have found the alpha strike capabilities of the Razorwing to be pretty incredible. If I go second, it can choose to have it come in from reserves or stay back for a turn. The 4 missiles st 6 large blasts will rock most armies. Ravager is probably a better point for point choice, but I like versatility over total spam. I don't particularly want Wytches as this list is made to be more Haemonculi based.

Regardless of all of the above, the I have still to be convinced the Archon is that great. Do the math. With an Agonizer he simply isn't that potent. Two wounds is about what he is looking at doing to almost everything. The Huskblade and Soultrap puts him into very expensive territory and really relies on the opponent. Against something like Blood Angels where there are Priests and other easy to kill characters around, ok. Against other armies it is tough to gib the first IC or MC to double that strength. Either way, if the Incubi unit he is with is doing the work, why not just take Incubi?

Try giving the archon drugs. Most of the results help, and if he teams up with a haemonculs he's getting a pain token right away. My preferred kit on the archon is drugs, blast pistol, shadow field, and a weapon. Ive has decent results from all of them, but a power weapon/ soultrap provides decent return. That way your not investing in insta-gank, but you can still take advantage of killing IC, Or getting FC. One thing I suggest is not using the archon/incubi as primary killers. Use them to mop up something you shot the bejesus out of before. Or combo them in with your wracks or whatnot.

Having the archon with the incubi means they dont start with a pain token while your wracks with haemi are going to start with 2. A more even distribution would be better.

An archon without drugs is a rather strange

Do you really think you need a PGL for 4 models? If he is with the incubi then essentially you are paying its price to give 4 incubi plasma gren and the whole squad def grenades. A bit rough for such a small squad... I mean if you are out in the open your oppoent is probably going to shoot your incubi and archon instead of trying to assault them? So basically you are paying 5 points per model for plasma grenades.

I think the ancient haemi is useful if you want to take casket of fleshening as he can use the higher BS. For a shattershard or liquifier BS 4 will work just fine.

You only have 2 troops in this list, even though they are full squads and have T4 and FNP I feel its better to have 3 at 1000pts and 4 at 1500.

Is the razorwing really essential or could you drop it down to another ravager?

Having the archon with the incubi means they dont start with a pain token while your wracks with haemi are going to start with 2. A more even distribution would be better.

That's true. Still, the furious charge is pretty crucial for the Wracks while the Incubi should be able to wreck without a token.

An archon without drugs is a rather strange

I don't really see the need for them. With an Agonizer and in a squad a Incubi there is a 50% chance of the drugs being relatively worthless. The extra run roll doesn't apply to the squad as they have no drugs. +1 WS is overkill. +1 Strength is irrelevant. The attack is so-so. The token and wound re-rolls are pretty amazing. Still, I don't see why an Archon should have drugs 100% of the time.

Do you really think you need a PGL for 4 models? If he is with the incubi then essentially you are paying its price to give 4 incubi plasma gren and the whole squad def grenades. A bit rough for such a small squad... I mean if you are out in the open your oppoent is probably going to shoot your incubi and archon instead of trying to assault them? So basically you are paying 5 points per model for plasma grenades.

They would be the only unit in my army that could assault into cover. Also, the defensive grenades mitigate being charged, especially by hoards or power weapons.

I think the ancient haemi is useful if you want to take casket of fleshening as he can use the higher BS. For a shattershard or liquifier BS 4 will work just fine.

Other than the niche role of the Casket, would he be worth it?

You only have 2 troops in this list, even though they are full squads and have T4 and FNP I feel its better to have 3 at 1000pts and 4 at 1500.

Maybe. I'd have to either drop the Lord/Incubi or run a min unit in a Venom. That just seems like a paper thin KP though.

Is the razorwing really essential or could you drop it down to another ravager?

Essential...no. In my experience it has been worth the 40 points. I'll have to tinker with it.

Overall, I was thinking about the Ancient Haemonculus with a Flesh Gauntlet. Poisoned and insta kill if they fail a save. Not too shabby. Would that be a waste or decent character?

JGrand wrote:
That's true. Still, the furious charge is pretty crucial for the Wracks while the Incubi should be able to wreck without a token.

FC on the wracks is great but it only works when you charge. FNP on the incubi and archon if he is with the wracks is really nice.

JGrand wrote:
I don't really see the need for them. With an Agonizer and in a squad a Incubi there is a 50% chance of the drugs being relatively worthless. The extra run roll doesn't apply to the squad as they have no drugs. +1 WS is overkill. +1 Strength is irrelevant. The attack is so-so. The token and wound re-rolls are pretty amazing. Still, I don't see why an Archon should have drugs 100% of the time.

Reroll to wound on the archon is awesome, if you could guarantee it it would be worth 30 points. The attack is probably worth 10-15 points and the token is worth 20 points. Even if the other are completely useless its still probably worth 10 points for drugs.

JGrand wrote:
They would be the only unit in my army that could assault into cover. Also, the defensive grenades mitigate being charged, especially by hoards or power weapons.

The only thing I can think of that would be charging incubi are genestealers and banshees. Against either you are going to lose with our without defensive grenades. In almost every other case the incubi and archon are just going to get shot at. I think the PGL would be better with a unit of wracks.

JGrand wrote:
Other than the niche role of the Casket, would he be worth it?

well the extra WS, wound, attack, inititive, and leadership are worth it, but IMO the casket is awesome on a BS 5 model.

Overall, I was thinking about the Ancient Haemonculus with a Flesh Gauntlet. Poisoned and insta kill if they fail a save. Not too shabby. Would that be a waste or decent character?

The problem is the number of IC that have 2+ saves out there. They might be able to kill your haemi before they fail one save. Especially if they gang up on him with the rest of the squad as they most surely will do. I think the agonizer is still the thing to go for, focus on killing the squad and leave the IC for last.

Ancient haemonculi are really only worth it in a coven type list...but even then are Meh. I agree with the other posters...10pts for drugs on an archon is a steal. Getting re-roll wounds is huge, free pain token is huge, +1 attack is more Agonizer attacks in the long run...attempting to get one of all those possibilities for 10pts? Yes please.