Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was having a doubles game today and my partner was blood angels and one of the units he took was a stormraven. However, we didn't get first go and the Tau player on the opposite side promptly blasted away at the stormraven from turn one. He didn't manage to destroy it but managed to prevent it from firing or moving for the match until turn four when it managed to unleash a bloodstrike missile.

We're all relatively new to WH40k but if you don't get first turn when you have a stormraven, it's such a big target, do you just accept that you've wasted your points on it? I realise that not every opponent is going to have 72" railguns but in this case, it really was 200 points wasted. If we'd have got first turn, it would have made a big difference to the flow of the battle.

If you don't get first turn and you've elected not to deepstrike the stormraven, what you do dakka? Just take it or is there something smarter that you can do?

One word, or two really.

Normal reserves.
Move 6" in, point at a tank with av13 or less and watch it turn useless.
Or turbo halfway up if you feel like it, or move 12", fire at 2 things and then unload the stuff inside. And so on and so on.

Yep putting it into normal reserve can generally give it at least 1 decent move and then usually the contents should be in striking range of a target the following turn even if the raven gets shot down.
I do recommend giving it extra armor so that it can ignore stunned results and keep on the move. I also run mine with with the TL Las Cannon so that if it is back away from a target i can use PotMS to hit something that is at range.

Cheers,
~Volkan

you should NEVER deploy a Stormraven unless you got first turn.

If you don't have 1st turn it goes in reserves, which is ok because it can move a great distance and be a threat from the turn it arrives.

I don't play BA, but with a target that big i would definitely put it in reserves same with the IG Valkyrie. Let the enemy concern himself with your ground troops, then pop in somewhere and blow him away.

Cypher's Sword wrote:I don't play BA, but with a target that big i would definitely put it in reserves same with the IG Valkyrie. Let the enemy concern himself with your ground troops, then pop in somewhere and blow him away.

Funny enough, I play team matches with a BA friend where we field a stormraven and vendetta. Having now played against 4 different teams I can tell you that putting these giant fliers on the board for turn 1 is not such a bad idea as you think.

The thing is that because of their size and flyer base, they are basically never going to get cover other than turboboosting. Also, for some reason, people make them out to be the biggest threat on the board every single time. Your opponent will put a silly amount of effort into killing it asap. Use that against them.

But even with all that, they are surprisingly tough vehicles. They're fast, immune to melta and have 12 armor all around. Keep it move flat out and not only will it have cover, but strength 8 or lower shooting and any CC will be next to useless against it. Guess what most armies rely on to kill vehicles? The tau are an odd exception with their railguns and cover ignoring markerlights.

My friend put it best when he said that the stormraven is really 2 different vehicles: a gunboat and an assault transport. On the first few turns, you have to ignore the guns and play it like a fast transport. Its job is to get the units inside (perferably assault marines and a furioso dred) to their targets asap. If it lives, then it becomes a gunboat, with the added bonus that there are now 2 more threats on the board running amok in the enemy lines.

Don't get distracted by all the bells and whistles into thinking that the raven can transport and shoot at the same time. It can't because that means moving too slowly to keep itself alive. It needs to either be moving too fast to deal with, or else blowing up whatever threatens it with overwhelming firepower.

It can move flat out and still fire 1 gun with the POTMS! Move flat out, drop the troops with DOA, and blast something with the TL-LC!

yup, except i perfer the TL-assault cannon and Multi-melta for my GKs.

Some interesting points of view here. Personally, Im not sure whether I'll be getting one for my GK - Im thinking about sticking with landraiders for termies and rhinos for PAGK (obviously when the new codex comes out). We'll see when the codex is out but Im not convinced that the stormraven is that good that it should take the place of a landraider which is going to be harder to hit thanks to LOS blocking terrain and better armour and allow termies to assault out of them.

ColdSadHungry wrote: He didn't manage to destroy it but managed to prevent it from firing or moving for the match until turn four when it managed to unleash a bloodstrike missile.

One thing to remember is that it has PotMS, it can always fire one gun more than normal, even if it's stunned or shaken if it wasn't destroyed you should be able to fire one weapon at him.

Rex-Nine wrote:It can move flat out and still fire 1 gun with the POTMS! Move flat out, drop the troops with DOA, and blast something with the TL-LC!

page 70 of the rulebook, "fast vehicles moving fast may fire no weapons"

rule seems pretty clear cut on that one, sorry. It can either move less than 12" and shoot, or move over that and gain a cover save, not both.

ColdSadHungry: The stormraven is an assault vehicle, so terminators can jump out and fight just as well as in landraider. The point is that it flys, is immune to melta and moves faster. There is a definite place for it versus landraiders.

Bruteboss wrote:

Rex-Nine wrote:It can move flat out and still fire 1 gun with the POTMS! Move flat out, drop the troops with DOA, and blast something with the TL-LC!

page 70 of the rulebook, "fast vehicles moving fast may fire no weapons"

rule seems pretty clear cut on that one, sorry. It can either move less than 12" and shoot, or move over that and gain a cover save, not both.

ColdSadHungry: The stormraven is an assault vehicle, so terminators can jump out and fight just as well as in landraider. The point is that it flys, is immune to melta and moves faster. There is a definite place for it versus landraiders.

Q: Can a Stormraven Gunship that has moved flat out still
use its Power of the Machine Spirit to fire one gun? (p38)
A: Yes.

Taken from the most recent BA FAQ on the GW site.

Wow my friend has been wasting the potential of that thing. Can't believe its even better than the effect we've been getting out of it.

Oscarius wrote:One word, or two really.

Normal reserves.
Move 6" in, point at a tank with av13 or less and watch it turn useless.
Or turbo halfway up if you feel like it, or move 12", fire at 2 things and then unload the stuff inside. And so on and so on.

If it's dimensions are anything like the Vendetta, you can't move on with 6" of movement. The whole vehicle has to be on the board, not just the base.


Someone was saying that Vendettas and Stormravens should be off the board unless you get turn 1. I actually *always* start my Vendetta on the board. As mentioned, they are great at soaking up fire, plus I want those cannons firing as soon as possible instead of wasting time in reserves. I imagine the same things apply to the Stormraven. You want your assault unit on the field and chopping away ASAP instead of dicking around in near-orbit.

The best defense for a Stormraven that I can see would be another Stormraven, as well as other transports. Maybe I'm thinking too much like IG, but target saturation is a huge deal.

you might be able to move it on 6" and then rotate it 90 degrees or so that might work, and if you only have to rotate it 75 degres you might be able to angle it to still get all it's shots.

ElCheezus wrote:
Someone was saying that Vendettas and Stormravens should be off the board unless you get turn 1. I actually *always* start my Vendetta on the board. As mentioned, they are great at soaking up fire, plus I want those cannons firing as soon as possible instead of wasting time in reserves. I imagine the same things apply to the Stormraven. You want your assault unit on the field and chopping away ASAP instead of dicking around in near-orbit.

The best defense for a Stormraven that I can see would be another Stormraven, as well as other transports. Maybe I'm thinking too much like IG, but target saturation is a huge deal.

One important thing to keep in mind is that the Vendetta is about 70 less expensive than a storm raven at base price, and that would be before the obligatory extra armor upgrade.

Also I'm not sure why some folks refer to the Raven as being "Immune to Melta", its kind of misleading. Just because Melta weapons don't get an extra d6 doesn't mean they wont swat it like a bug. Most are S8 and more than enough to get the job done. The Avatar is Immune to Melta. The Storm Raven just denies melta its additional effect.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Bruteboss wrote:My friend put it best when he said that the stormraven is really 2 different vehicles: a gunboat and an assault transport. On the first few turns, you have to ignore the guns and play it like a fast transport. Its job is to get the units inside (perferably assault marines and a furioso dred) to their targets asap. If it lives, then it becomes a gunboat, with the added bonus that there are now 2 more threats on the board running amok in the enemy lines.

Don't get distracted by all the bells and whistles into thinking that the raven can transport and shoot at the same time. It can't because that means moving too slowly to keep itself alive. It needs to either be moving too fast to deal with, or else blowing up whatever threatens it with overwhelming firepower.

Agree with the above. You need to deliver the transported assault units to target. That is job #1. If you do not have first turn, and your opponent has even mildly effective shooting, put it in Reserve. This also creates a deterrant to your opponent moving within around 20" of your table edge, because he knows if he does so, your Storm Raven will fly up 12", drop off units, and he'll get assaulted the turn it arrives without him getting to shoot at it first. If he does stay on his side, jet it 24", fire the multimelta to blow up a tank (or the assault cannon against lighter armor like Dark Eldar), and then he's got ONE turn to shoot at it before you deliver the assault units- and you've got a 4+ cover save for that turn.

Bruteboss wrote:The thing is that because of their size and flyer base, they are basically never going to get cover other than turboboosting. Also, for some reason, people make them out to be the biggest threat on the board every single time. Your opponent will put a silly amount of effort into killing it asap. Use that against them.

It's an AV12 vehicle that almost never gets a cover save (apart from SMF), costs 200+ points and hauls around and delivers to target two deadly assault units. There is almost never a better target on the board in terms of ease to kill combined with reward of killing it. The only units on the table which tend to be more valuable in and of themselves are landraiders, which are harder to kill, and only contain one assault unit- not two. The effort of shooting down an SR is usually worth it; especially since there's usually not all that much effort required.

I think that within two years all Imperial chapters will have access to the Stormraven and if mobility continues to be a cornerstone to the game it will eclipse the landraider - it's cheaper and more powerful.

AV12 dies with comparative ease to missile spam, though. And even meltas outside 6". I think it's a big investment which will usually only see substantial use in bigger games.

I disagree that the Raven is more powerful. It has a better potential than a land raider with more mobility and the ability to lug around 2 units. It also is much easier to kill and with its size will almost never get a cover save unless it goes flat out. Furthermore since it needs to go flat out to make up for its AV12 with such a high threat index any immobilized results are going to swat it from the skies. The savings up 50ish points don't make it better than a Land Raider, only different.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Lately I've been using a couple of Stormravens in my games and I've found them to be pretty damn awesome. It's already been said but if you don't get the first turn, start them in reserve. That way your opponent won't have a whole turn of shooting to take it down. Even though it doesn't have as much armor as the landraider, it has far more potential to cause chaos with an opponents army if used properly (I've been using them to drop death company dreads and units like sanguinary guard etc.). At the end of the day, any unit that gets completely destroyed the first turn will seem like a waste of points really.

The problem with putting it in reserve, though, is that you can't just bring it in when you want. If, as has been stated, the number 1 priority is to deliver troops, then aren't you putting a squad and perhaps a dread in reserve, too? If it doesn't arrive until turn 3 or 4, then it may be too late to have the kind of impact it should have. I'm just not convinced yet - think I'll watch a few more battles and see what it does before considering one for myself, afterall, delivering terminators with landraiders is a tried and tested technique that works, seemingly with less hassle.

I messed around with a blood angel list for the first time the other night and tried out the storm raven I had originally bought for my future grey knights army. And I must say it was impressive. I only fired the guns once and then it was wrecked on turn 3(we were playing dawn of war and I had second turn). But by that time it had delivered my furious charging terminator unit and furious charging furioso with blood talons.

The ability to carry a dreadnought at that speed and deliver it as an assault vehicle causes it to eclipse the landraider in my mind, especially since you can have the terminator unit in there as well. As Mannahnin could attest I love my dreadnoughts, and the blood talon one has me wanting to build a blood angel army just for fun, there are no assaulty dreadnoughts in the grey knight codex so Im switching mine from grey to red. Delivering a dreadnought up the field like that with speed can be brutal, the dreadnought also increases the threat range of the Raven, since it has a larger base than even a terminator your 2" deploy from the flying base goes even further.

By the odds it takes lots of shots to drop a Stormraven. Suppose it has moved flat-out... A Dev with ML has the following odds to penetrate:

0.67 to hit
0.33 to penetrate
0.33 to roll 5/6
0.5 due to cover

0.67*0.33*0.33*0.5 = 6.633%

The melta is a little better but lacks range.

Your third step is wrong. It should be .5 to roll 4/5/6 to kill- since you moved Flat Out, Immobilized crashes you.

I think your math is off anyway; I get .67/3/2/2 = 5.58%. Add the chance to be killed by a Glancing 6 (0.93%) and you get 6.51%. Nearly the same, anyway.

That said, as you show, despite the chance to be killed on an immobilize, Flat Out nearly doubles the survivability of the SR thanks to the 4+ cover save. Which underscores the importance of not letting your opponent shoot at it unless it is moving Flat Out or has already dropped off the assault troops.

I was under the impression that flat out/Immoble = wrecked only happened on the Stormraven's turn, not the Missle's turn.

I believe that applies to an embarked squad or dreadnaught.

One thing I failed to mention is that the percentage should be multiplied by the number of rockets in the Dev squad. They are still not great odds but if we only look at one shot it's misleading. If I were playing a shooty army versus BA with a Stormraven I'd want three squads of Devs - one deployed in the middle and the other two out towards the short edges of the table with overlapping fire lanes - you don't want to leave any blind spots or else the Stormraven could come in from reserve and pull an alpha strike with no immediate threat. The Bloodstrike missiles outrange rockets and you could blast a Dev squad on entry from reserve.

On coming in late from reserve - mine has a funny habit of not showing up until turn four. There is still enough time even if it comes in that late for it to do what needs to be done and mine always carries a big payload. While I'd rather have it optimally show up on turn three the good thing about a late arrival is that the rest of your army should be able to neutralize all if not most of the big threats.

Sentai_Sage wrote:I was under the impression that flat out/Immoble = wrecked only happened on the Stormraven's turn, not the Missle's turn.

You're confusing different things.

If a Fast Skimmer (specifically; not any other Fast vehicle) moves Flat Out and is Immobilized, it crashes and is Destroyed instead. This applies both during its own turn and in your opponent's turn (p.71).

If a Skimmer begins or ends its turn in Difficult, it takes a Dangerous Terrain test. Like other vehicles, this Immobilizes it if failed, which (combined with the above rule) means it can kill itself at the end of a Flat Out move. (p.71, again).

A separate but related issue, which you're probably thinking of because it's gotten a lot of attention since the November FAQ update, is that a unit in a Fast transport is forbidden/unable to disembark in the SAME TURN in which said vehicle moves Flat Out (p.70).

Thus if a Fast transport vehicle manages to kill itself in its own turn while moving fast (most commonly possible with an Eldar or Dark Eldar skimmer, due to the dangerous terrain thing, above, but also possible with a ground vehicle if it Rams & kills itself, or Tank Shocks and is blown up via Death or Glory), any passengers are unable to get out and die along with it. This fiery trapped passenger death only applies in the moving player's own turn, however, since page 9 tells us that "turn" defaults to "player turn", not "game turn" unless otherwise specified.

So if you move your SR Flat Out, and your opponent gets an Immobilized result shooting at it in his turn, it WILL die, but at least the passengers will get out as normal. Whereas if you move it Flat Out into difficult terrain and roll that "1", it dies and the passengers die with it. So don't jet it into terrain like an idiot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Afrikan Blonde wrote: you don't want to leave any blind spots or else the Stormraven could come in from reserve and pull an alpha strike with no immediate threat. The Bloodstrike missiles outrange rockets and you could blast a Dev squad on entry from reserve.

I don't believe that's legally possible, is it? Is the Stormraven capable of moving its entire model onto the table with a 6" or less move?

Actually I believe it can. I'd have to measure on a table to make sure... Again another nuisance from the re released FAQs. Oh well.

If it can, it'd probably have to do it sideways.

I still think tactically it's generally a poor idea to fly on 6" and waste time shooting. 24" and deliver the package!