Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was discussing the beak style of helmet for Marines with my brother and he thought they were supposed to be an older version, I however think they are a newer vision of Marine helmets. So Dakka Dakka, what say you? Who is right and who has to wallow in the shame of being wrong?

They are Mk. 6 Corvus. Its an old model, Im pretty sure all the rogue trader guys were beaky. Marines wear mk 8 I think now.

Beakies are more awesome though.

beakies are older model space marine armour. Though they werethe newest version during the horus heresy.

Lizar7 wrote:They are Mk. 6 Corvus. Its an old model, Im pretty sure all the rogue trader guys were beaky. Marines wear mk 8 I think now.

The first bit is correct

In the game universe MK6 was made and produced at the outbreak of the Heresy.

In real life terms, the first ever marines both metal and the famous 'RTBO1' multi-part plastic kit all featured 'beakies'. So, that was more than 20 years ago now, and the majority of the marines in the Rogue Trader edition 40k artwork wore that style armour. IIRC mk7 was introduced with the Warhammer 40k compilation (or it may have been the Compendium, I always get them confused), and then 2nd edition cemented it as the 'core' armour of choice as only mk7 was included in the starter set. It has been that way ever since, although with the last 2 editions a couple of the older armour marks have made there way in (although mk7 still makes up the majority).

Lizar7 wrote:They are Mk. 6 Corvus. Its an old model, Im pretty sure all the rogue trader guys were beaky. Marines wear mk 8 I think now.

Mark 8 is the best "standard" armour currently available (absolutely not counting the Grey Knight's Aegis armour), which means that captains, chaplains, chapter masters and the like have a priority on recieving them. For some reason though, the Black Templars upgrade sprue comes with more Mk8 armour than you can shake a stick at. I guess the Templars are hogging the Mk8's, causing the relative scarcity of them in the first place .

Personally, I find the beaky helmets the most aesthetcally pleasing ones.

If I could, all my non-bare face marines would wear a MK VI helmet.

I don't really fancy the beaky helmets. They look less scary or impressive than the Mk7 and 8 helmets with the apparent air filters. But this is just my opinion.

I thought some Marines keep their armor as sacred, just like their bolters. This means older suits would be kept around out of some sense of pride. They get replaced if they get wrecked. I noticed some mismatched armor (like Mk. VI greaves and older tubes under chestplate with Mk. VII helmet and shoulder pads) on some figs, which makes me think they replace pieces of the armor as necessary. I have always thought giving my veterans the beaks, older greaves withou the knee plate, studded shoulders, was a good way of representing this.

most pieces of PA are compatable with the others so there are quite a few suits made up of multiple marks.


the Mk6 "beakie" had more advanced sensors and Vox systems inside the beak. the Beak also had the function of deflecting rounds from the head, but had the weakness of possably deflecting rounds into the neck area.

Mk7 and 8 were able to make the sensors and Vox systems in the beak more compact and so the beakie helmet was dropped. the Neck vulnerability was fixed by adding a Gorget to the Breastplate on Mk8 armor.


the Studs on Pauldrons are from Mk5 "Heresy" pattern armor(so called because it was the most common Mk during the HH) which was covered in the Studs.


Corvus pattern armor was a hasty development during the years of the Heresy in an attempt to bring the loyal Legions up to the standards of the Traitors(who had recieved the bulk of new Technology prior to the actual outbreak)

Mk7 "Aquilia" was devloped during the Siege of Terra and was significantly more advanced then any previous marks. it is currently the Standard Issue PA for all space marines. whenever they can, Traitor marines will scavange Mk7 PA as it is better then the suits they currently have.

Mk8 is a new development and is only seen in limited numbers. some suits have an intergrated power field in the gauntlets similer to a power fist.

Right From the Forge World Catalogue...

"MkII Armour represented a significant technological step forward compared to the original Mk I Thunder Armour, and was supplied by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who hand-crafted each component to the highest specification."

"The MkIII ‘Iron’ Armour is a variant of the previous ‘Crusade’ pattern adapted with additional armour plates to the front, as well as a reinforced helmet faceplate and strengthened vambraces for the savage firefights of fleet-based boarding actions. This extra armour turns an already resilient Marine into an almost unstoppable juggernaut within the cramped confines of a ship."

MkIV "This pattern of power armour was developed towards the end of the Great Crusade, using advanced technologies recovered by Astartes forces from scattered Forge Worlds across the Imperium. Despite being intended as the pinnacle of power armour technology, and containing many advanced systems..."

"The iconic MkV ‘Heresy’ Armour Set is an archaic pattern of Power Armour, first created during the dark and shadowed days of the Great Betrayal, which saw several layers of inferior-quality materials bonded with adamantium studs. As some Forge Worlds sided with Horus and some remained loyal to the Emperor, the supply lines from the Forge Worlds that manufactured arms and armour for the Legions were heavily disrupted, forcing the Legions to develop the Mk V pattern."

"Designed as a successor to the advanced MkIV ‘Maximus’ armour that was derailed by the Horus Heresy, MkVI ‘Corvus’ Armour is distinctive for its’ relatively clean appearance and elongated, conical nose – designed to house additional systems including advanced Autosenses. The studded left shoulder pad, taken from the previous MkV pattern, commemorates the glory of those heroes who stood at the Eternity Gate alongside the Emperor himself."

The MkV seems to have been simply a degraded set of MkIV created during the chaos of the heresy.

While most 'modern' figures are equiped with the MkVII, I don't know how prevalent it is in the 40k universe as a whole.

As for the MkVIII, I'd like to think the armor is more advanced than the previous models, but considering the advanced state of technological decay since the heresy, I'm thinking more and more that the pinnacle may have been the MkIV suit and the subsequent models may be slightly modified. More armor and additional electronics as in the case of the MkVI, where it mentions the addition of 'advanced autosenses'. Perhaps more advanced than the MkV, but not the MkIV. Just a thought since no new STC's have been discovered since then.

Uhlan wrote:Just a thought since no new STC's have been discovered since then.

And just what makes you think that?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Uhlan wrote:Just a thought since no new STC's have been discovered since then.

And just what makes you think that?

I can't quote anything (which I like to do as often as I can if you read my posts), but I'm almost positive I've read somewhere that no new functioning STC's have been found. (One of the reasons that the Terminator suits can only be cannibalized and there haven't been any new advances in armor as that technology has been lost). The only exception that I'm aware of is an STC that was found which had the blueprints for the 'iron men' of legend and, because of it's nature was destroyed along with all of it's information. I think I have that right. I haven't read every book yet, but I'm trying.

Inherent in some of Forge World's descriptions is an indication that there hasn't been anything new 'under the sun' for a very long time.

There may be technology stashed away somewhere, maybe on Mars, but unless a functioning STC is part of the process I think the tech may languish unused. Maybe even unrecognized.

If the loss of technology was as bad as some of the fluff makes out then the Imperial fleet would be in major decay and would after 10,000 years be near unserviceable for maintaining contact between systems.
With the marks of marine armour, I think what we're looking at is one or two base STCs which produced the first types. The improvements are the result of better understanding of the STCs (some of which are merely blueprints or broken fragments) and how they are actually supposed to be put together. Similar to how experienced modelers can produce quite different results to people who've never put a kit together before using the same kit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There have been some innovations though, such as the Rhino variants. Originally designed for moving people about, it has since been adapted for military use such as the predator and razorback.

cadbren wrote:If the loss of technology was as bad as some of the fluff makes out then the Imperial fleet would be in major decay and would after 10,000 years be near unserviceable for maintaining contact between systems.
With the marks of marine armour, I think what we're looking at is one or two base STCs which produced the first types. The improvements are the result of better understanding of the STCs (some of which are merely blueprints or broken fragments) and how they are actually supposed to be put together. Similar to how experienced modelers can produce quite different results to people who've never put a kit together before using the same kit.

Yeah, that would be a good explanation of the process to a degree. Tantamount to 'reverse engineering' the STC blueprint. I think the process to do so is getting tougher all the time since nothing radical has come to light.

However, In my minds eye as I read the fluff there aren't any new advancements per se. Everything is maintained at a stagnant technological level (more or less) and even that is fast becoming difficult. Some of the more advanced systems (and I would imagine Starships and Terminator Armor here) must be cannibalized in order to replace many functions. This is why, if you read the fluff on armored vehicles for example, that once certain weapon systems are destroyed, the hull is 'repaired' and a 'lesser' (although many times more efficient) weapon system is used to fill the void. Those weapon systems can't be re-made and has less to do with vehicles being 'field stripped' and cannibalized for expediency.

The sheer size of the Empire and the vast amounts of equipment left over from millenia of production has left a fairly good sized amount of equipment with which to take parts.

Geez, I hope that made sense... lol.

I thought MK7 was the norm, with MK8 suits going to the lucky

winnertakesall wrote:I thought MK7 was the norm, with MK8 suits going to the lucky

Mk 7 is the norm because SM prefer out-dated and old equipment as opposed to the newer and much better Mk 8.
How many times has an SM died because he got "shot in the throat" with a Mk 8 suit that wouldn't have happened.

Contrary to popular belief, the IoM has actually advanced in many areas of Technology.

99% of the "Lost" technology was lost during the Dark Age of Technology BEFORE the IoM began.


the Mechanicus has actually found thousands of STCs in the 10k+ years of it's existance. most won't apply to military technology, but are nontheless valuable. 6 Guardsmen fell through the roof of a buried STC that made high grade steel knives. those lucky dudes got their own planets.


an STC can be used in a multitude of ways. the Rhino STC actually has the information to make Predator tanks, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators as well as Rhinos. the STC was modified to create the Razorback. the BA's have a missing componant of the STC to make Baal Predators.

the Landraider STC has many variants. the standard Lascannon varity. the Crusader was developed by the Black Templars. the Landraider Achilles was developed to counter a, now unknown, alien threat during the Great Crusade.


an STC is more of a blueprint to make some bit of technology.

an STC Machine is a massive computer that has all of mankinds lost technology inside of it and can make the blueprints to make them. none of these machines are fully functional, most have only a few common bits of technology or are stuck making a single thing.

Some STC machines were hooked up to Nano-replicators that could create the technology you wanted right there. again, most have been irrevocably damaged.

It would also help if both the AdMech and the SM chapter shared their special shiny toys...
And there was a department in the AdMech for experimenting with both developments and xenos tech.

there are departments in the Admech for advancement.


Xeno Tech is constantly, albiet secretly, being tested.

one story in "Hero's of the Space Marines" involved a Deathwatch kill team boarding an Ork Rok to kill a Wierdboy. they were instructed to bring the beasts head back with them because he was using other Orks to increase his power.

the head is turned over to the Ad Mech where they do some Psychic testing attempting to harness Waaagh energy.

I got this from the 40k Wiki...

"Standard Template Construct (STC) systems were advanced computers created during the Dark Age of Technology, which are said to have contained the sum total of human technological knowledge. The STC was invented when human interstellar civilisation was at its technological peak. Introduced during the Dark Age of Technology before the Age of Strife, an STC allowed workers to build anything from a lasgun to a fortified bunker or the fearsome interstellar warships now used by the Imperial Navy. Examples of STC technology still in use are the Rhino Armoured Personnel Carrier, the Land Raider and the Baneblade. Imperial forces (especially those of the Adeptus Mechanicus) will go to any length to recover a lost or stolen STC, even if it means the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Imperial citizens. It is said that even the flimsiest rumors of an STC system will spark cross-galaxy journeys, titanic fleet search operations, and the spending of untold lives and treasure. A STC system was possessed by every group of human colonists before the Age of Strife, allowing them to build all of the equipment necessary for survival on an untamed colony planet. During the Age of Strife the systems fell into disuse, were damaged or destroyed, and so became increasingly rare, until they were lost entirely. In the Age of the Imperium, after so many thousands of years, it is unlikely that any have survived. What technological knowledge remains from the Dark Age of Technology survives only in the form of STC hard-copies that have been preserved and copied over thousands of years by the Tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who believe that STCs are the most holy of artefacts."

"The STC was an advanced computer data system designed to provide construction details for human colonists during Mankind's early interstellar expansion across the Milky Way Galaxy before the massive Warp Storms of the Age of Strife brought an end to all interstellar travel and communications for several millennia. Each group of colonists carried such a system when they embarked for their new homes. It enabled the colonists to build efficient shelters, generators and transports without any technical knowledge and using almost any locally available materials. The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary plans. The rare STC Library is said to contain the total sum of all human knowledge of the great human interstellar civilisation that existed before the onset of the Age of Strife, but as the technological level needed by the majority of the human population at that time was simple, most STC systems were for producing relatively unsophisticated equipment like threshing machines and aircraft, not Warp energy taps or holo fields. Very few examples of schematics for the more advanced devices have been found. The STC systems themselves worked by providing in a hololithic format the full schematics for a machine, device or vehicle according to the given needs of the user. This resulted in the production of some extremely sturdy, functional designs still found throughout the Imperium. Since no confirmed reports of a fully functional STC Library have been made since the Dark Age of Technology, the full nature of the STC--and what technological secrets and wonders it may contain--remains unknown."

This is GW's info at least I think with some additional material from a book or two.

I think it goes to what I mentioned earlier that no new functioning STC libraries (the key word I guess) have been found. However, fragmants of data (STC hard-copies) have been found, but the ability to understand what is available is not always possible because of the loss of ancillary technologies for instance.

A fully functioning STC has never been found, unless you want to count what Skippy the Idealistic Young Grey Knight Captain destroyed in Dark Adeptus by using the Power of Imagination.

Only damaged STC databases and copies of blueprints of STC designs have been recovered. Imperial technology, for the most part, is improving over the years, but the improvements rarely find their way into active service, for economic and inertial reasons, to say nothing of the inflexibility and conservatism of Space Marines, who still view a rhino with a slightly different gun, that's been around for thousands of years, as a dangerously new and untested bit of technology...

Terminator armor is still produced, but is such a grossly inefficient waste of resources that other, actually useful things get manufacturing priority (like lasguns and baneblades...).

and any advancements that do occur probably don't have huge impacts.


say they develop a Lasgun Power Pack that hold 25% more juice.

it's a big advancement, but it could take decades for even a fraction of the IG to recieve the new power packs and even then the increased ammo capacity won't have a massive impact. whats 25% more ammo when you fire thousands and thousands of rounds in warfare where the life expectency is measured in hours.

'Beakies' are the older (much older) varient. Conti nue to wallow.

Mk6 "Corvus" Armour is the oldest recognisable armour, the other earlier models backfiled the catalogue and fleshed out the 40K world a bit more.

Mk7 "Aquila" Armour (with the Eagle at the centre hence Aquila) is the standard armour across most Chapters. Seen in Space Crusade et al, with Jes Goodwins designs.

Mk8 "Errant" Armour has a heavier ring around the Gorget "Neck" to the Helmet is partially obsucred (very like the Emperors Champion or Grey Knights Power Armour) and also features an armoured abdomen around the cables. It is quite awesome looking but also quite rare.



I love "Corvus" pattern armour and Helms they look really good on Veterans, especially with studded pauldrons. Combine this with different torso's and legs and you get alot of mileage. They look particularly great on Sternguard and Sergeants.

I like all the artwork that features beakie helms with teeth drawn on them. looks badass.

like this ^
If my hands were more stable i would love to do this on a squad of vets

I have a higher proportion of Corvus on my Crimson Fists veterans.

My Kantor even uses a Mk6 helm instead of the stock head.

I just love the look of it, much more than Mk7 and 8 (though they aren't bad).

Uhlan wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Uhlan wrote:Just a thought since no new STC's have been discovered since then.

And just what makes you think that?

I can't quote anything (which I like to do as often as I can if you read my posts), but I'm almost positive I've read somewhere that no new functioning STC's have been found. (One of the reasons that the Terminator suits can only be cannibalized and there haven't been any new advances in armor as that technology has been lost). The only exception that I'm aware of is an STC that was found which had the blueprints for the 'iron men' of legend and, because of it's nature was destroyed along with all of it's information. I think I have that right. I haven't read every book yet, but I'm trying.

Wrong.

Terminator Suits can and are built from scratch. The only reason you see them "cannibalized" is because they're very complex things to build from scratch and take decades to manufacture. Thus, the Astartes in the field(who generally will have more Terminator suits than they will veterans who they feel are qualified to operate them) find it easier to pull parts to fix the suits.

But where do you think the replacement parts for the 'spare' suits come from?

Inherent in some of Forge World's descriptions is an indication that there hasn't been anything new 'under the sun' for a very long time.

There may be technology stashed away somewhere, maybe on Mars, but unless a functioning STC is part of the process I think the tech may languish unused. Maybe even unrecognized.

This is where a large amount of misinformation comes from.
A 'functioning STC' doesn't refer to the template but the constructor. The Land Raider and Land Speeders, for example, were discovered STC templates--but no constructor was in place.

Finding a fully functional STC is rare simply because the constructors tended to decay over time.