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This is primarily inspired by the frequent "there can't possibly be trillions of Dark Eldar" that invariably shows up when I mention the rough (low-end) estimates of their population based on what the codex says, though also by thinking about the (also extremely rough) figures for humanity and the Guard, in light of the sheer size of the Imperium. This is mostly almost entirely just speculation and extrapolation based on the rare figures given.


To start off, the human population is apparently somewhere in the low quadrillions. The Daemon codex references "thousands of trillions of humans" (bottom of page 24), and more tenuous estimates based on Guard figures also come out somewhere in that range. The Guard codex states there a million planets in the Imperium, though we can assume that's a suitably inaccurate rounded figure rather than a specific number. This would also mean that only about .2% of the currently estimated planets within the habitable range of their star (some 500 million, which I'm assuming is a low estimate based on the current, extremely limited detection methods) were colonized, which while seemingly low is probably not too bad of a figure if one thinks about it (there's only so much terraforming can do, after all). Terra is alleged to have a population in tens of trillions, which effectively works out to a lower population density than Tokyo when the depth of the Hive layer is taken into account. Armageddon is placed somewhere in the hundreds of billions by the Guard codex. It isn't much of a stretch to thus place the average Hiveworld population in the high hundreds of billions to the low trillions, so if even 1% of Imperial worlds (somewhere around 10,000) are hiveworlds, we quite easily reach the several quadrillion figure.

Guard figures are a bit stranger, and seem to contradict themselves frequently. Armageddon (again), is said to have a particularly high tithe, amounting to an average around 100 million soldiers on an apparently annual basis, which comes out to well under one thousandth of its stated population (hundreds of billions). Those are about the most solid figures we have, and they're stated to be exceptionally high (though naturally it's not bothered to note whether they're simply numerically high, or an unusually high percentage). There are ostensibly around two billion regiments, though I can't find a citation of that at the moment (it's allegedly in the Guard codex, or an older Guard codex, but I don't see it skimming through just now). The codex places the size of an infantry regiment in the tens of thousands, though every Black Library novel I've seen puts the size in the low thousands, which makes a whole lot more sense logistically. There's also the matter of the Space Marine codex (apparently) placing the ratio of Guard to Space Marines somewhere around the low millions to one, which through simple multiplication would place their numbers somewhere in the low trillions, which is on the lower end of the possible range, but still within it. Everything seems to consistently point to numbers somewhere in the low trillions to the low tens of trillions, which works out nicely to about a thousandth of the human population.

I feel fairly confident in the above numbers, because while they're based off of extremely vague references, all of these vague references point to the same general ranges.


Commorragh, a conglomeration of Old Eldar Empire webway port cities and estates, is large enough to contain seven stars, and is stated to be "to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mounting is to a mound of termites," and "its dimensions would be considered impossible if they could be read by any conventional means." The largest of Imperial Hives houses something on the order of a hundred billion. Even assuming that the description of Commorragh is an exaggeration, and the stolen suns technically exist outside it or in some effectively smaller space than they physically should (which is likely, considering the nature of the webway), it's still vast enough to require seven entire stars to power, and could easily be seen as able to house tens of trillions (it certainly can't be smaller than the Terran Hive, can it?), even at a low density. That's still greatly down from the post-labor Eldar Empire, which would have rivaled or surpassed the human population estimated above.

I have very little idea about the Craftworlder population, though. A Craftworld is what, the size of a small moon? Even assuming a significant portion is given over to the machinery that keeps it moving and livable, and the rest a comfortable low density, that would leave each at the very least an equal to an Imperial Hiveworld, which is only a thin layer covering part of a planet. Of course, as I understand it there are only seven canonically surviving Craftworlds, which also puts their total population in the low trillions, most of which is non-martial.


At first, I would assume Orks to outnumber humanity, but on thinking about it that seems fairly unlikely. Humans stack themselves in several mile high hives that cover the greater parts of planets, and have advanced agricultural systems and logistics to support them. Orks at their densest have ramshackle shanty towns the size of modern cities. Their population growth far exceeds that of humanity, but that's accompanied by significant culling at their own and other hands. I don't think it would be far wrong to assume that an Ork world wouldn't greatly exceed the population of modern Earth, and it's quite doubtful that they have even as many worlds as the Imperium does Hiveworlds, even though small populations can also be found on many human worlds.


Tau, I don't have any population figures for, but I do recall that they only have about seven major colonies, and a hundred or so minor outposts, so in all likelihood a pretty small total population.


Necrons are anyone's guess.


Chaos Marines fall pretty solidly within a few hundred thousand on the outside, and Daemons are effectively infinite.


The question becomes patently ridiculous when applied to Tyranids, as it would be like trying to estimate the human population if you considered every manner of domestic animal, tool, and vehicle human for the purposes of estimation...


Have I left anything out?

I recall it somewhere saying that if the Orks were to band together as an empire they would conquer the galaxy easily. I believe this was said in reference to their very large numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, the Dark Eldar outnumber the Eldar?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

At first, I would assume Orks to outnumber humanity, but on thinking about it that seems fairly unlikely. Humans stack themselves in several mile high hives that cover the greater parts of planets, and have advanced agricultural systems and logistics to support them. Orks at their densest have ramshackle shanty towns the size of modern cities. Their population growth far exceeds that of humanity, but that's accompanied by significant culling at their own and other hands. I don't think it would be far wrong to assume that an Ork world wouldn't greatly exceed the population of modern Earth, and it's quite doubtful that they have even as many worlds as the Imperium does Hiveworlds, even though small populations can also be found on many human worlds.

I would think, based on what you have estimated concerning human population estimates, that humanity occupies a smaller, denser portion of the galaxy that orks would. On the other hand, I would think Orks a spread over a vaster area of the galaxy, and as far as we know, into the next. I recall some reference somewhere that mentions a Mars tech-priest sent out a probe into space to discover the extent of life outside the known galaxy. After centuries (or even millennia, I forgot), the probes findings finally got sent back and all they found was the back-chatterings of Ork communication, which suggests that even in the darkest, unknown reaches of space, where mankind hasnt even set foot on, there are Orks. Hell, it's probably an Ork Empire the size of the Imperium, and the only reason why they havent invaded (like the nids) is because they're embroiled in their own fighting (as orks are wont to do).

Still, an interesting thought. I will watch this thread with great interest.

Perhaps that's true. I don't know how far out the Imperial reach in the Segmentum Ultima goes, but I'd interpret the extremely low percentage of colonized planets mostly as humanity just skipping over the ones that would be to much work to terraform/couldn't be terraformed, and just picking out those (relative) few that could be easily settled.

I suppose that may be an underestimate of ork worlds, though I'll stick by the guesses as to the population they can support on a world (not that it matters much, since they tend to just up and go somewhere else when things start getting crowded).

I will make you a list from the most populated to the least populated of all races:

1-Orks (duh)
2-Tyranids (billions of bugs)
3-Humanity (we rock!!!)
4-Eldar (both Dark and ordinary)
5-Tau (small but efficient)

AS for others:
Necrons-not much information on their number, so we can't point anything for sure. And please without "there are billions of us" when even you don't know that.

Chaos-If we count onlt CSM then not much because original legions have been decimated in 10.000 years of long history and there is not simply enough new marines to count for big population. But if we count chaos cultist, then they have substantial population. Daemons are not from our reality so don't count.

Hope this help's you.

Brother Coa wrote:
2-Tyranids (billions of bugs)

But are there quadrillions of them? And do you count the smallest expendable ones, that are little more than what domestic animals are to humans, if not even lower in some cases, or just the semi-intelligent ones herding them? The whole concept of population size doesn't really work with tyranids, because their numbers are almost entirely expendable one shot organisms that get eaten after their job is done, meaning they spike when taking a planet, and then drop down into the thousands or millions for the trip to the next planet.

Chaos-If we count onlt CSM then not much because original legions have been decimated in 10.000 years of long history and there is not simply enough new marines to count for big population. But if we count chaos cultist, then they have substantial population. Daemons are not from our reality so don't count.

Hope this help's you.

The traitor legions would have numbered somewhere in the hundreds of thousands at the time of the Heresy, right? Half the ranks of twenty legions, each comprising several tens of thousands, would leave it somewhere around there. Space Marines that fell to chaos and survived are probably somewhere in the low tens of thousands or less, and I can't imagine they're producing many more in the Eye of Terror. Cultists are a trickier story, since they're mixed into the general human population with the exception of those on Daemonworlds, which we have even less information on, and we don't know how much of the general human population is given over to secret chaos worship.

And yeah, Daemons are for all intents and purposes infinite, and so the concept of population makes even less sense for them than it does for tyranids.

It depends on your definition of population. If you mean by how we define it normally (a single sentient being counts as one, has to be self aware, etc.) then I'd say it's close between humans and Orks, with Orks ahead by a decent margin. Even though Humanity has a more concentrated population, Orks are far more widespread, and critically can survive environments that would fry, freeze, melt, or otherwise suitably kill a human being, which opens up a LOT more worlds for them to rule/survive on. Not to mention that several sources in the 40k fluff have outright stated that the Orks are the most numerous species originating in the 40k galaxy (note the emphasis on originating, not currently in.)

If we're counting population as anything that's alive at all, then the Tyranids would outstrip every other race, including Orks, hands down. Even taking into account the idea that each basic Gaunt is basically a throwaway suicide soldier/meatshield, you have to remember that every single basic thing in the Tyranid hive fleet is alive. That alone skews the estimates in their favor heavily, especially when you look at maps showing the different tendrils reaching into the galaxy and how insanely huge they are.

There is, however, one race that I'm curious about, and that's Necrons. They're portrayed as rare (or deadly) enough that very few people even know of them, and there's limited amounts of knowledge surrounding them.... but if creatures that literally devour stars decided to create an army of mansized creatures to sweep the galaxy clean, then there must be a hell of a lot of them. But so few tomb worlds have awoken that hard estimates are basically impossible to come by, and the fact that they're basically robots removes any kind of limitation on what areas of the galaxy they can populate - being inorganic pretty much means that anything's fair game. Now, granted, they're not generally seen as the limitless hoard type, seeing as how they can survive nearly anything, but at the same time, it wouldn't surprise me if they happened to have an absolutely staggering amount of troops squirreled away in their hidey-holes, and the only reason no one knows is because they are all asleep.

Chaos:
- demons are nearly infinite...
- cultists are numerous enough to make chaos incursions possible.
- Traitor guard may represent the real common "chaos based opponent" of the Imperial guard. Should be only a low percentage of Guard tough, because those
following Horus into the Heresy weren't as long lived as the astartes....
- dark mechanicum has not much fluff to go from.
- chaos space marines, or correctly Traitor marines, came from 9 of the Space marine legions. As not all turned, and a lot died in the Heresy, numbers of
HH era marines should be only a few thousand. ( TS reduced to 1k, NL running with deleted companies in fluff lately, etc ). Some renegades like Huron BH may
increase the numbers, but looking at the badab war even those starting at thousands of renegades end at only a few hundred defecting to chaos....

numbers come from replacable sources like demons and cultists. CSM would form the elite.Got a bit cut down in importance lately. Without demons they lack the numbers to compete in population since ruining things isn't creating and thus there is always a negative trend in numbers


Dark Eldar:
- their home is commoragh, a collection of city states...
- As part of the net, the size is impossible to know, but the hint at territorial behaviour of DE should point to a low population density.
- the population " is higher than the craftworlders assume" but do we know what the craftworlders guess at?
- DE tend to attack badly defended targets. Its safe to assume the DE do not have the numbers to overwhelm just any target. If they had, their greed would keep them raiding whole systems...
- DE use mercenaries and redesigned creatures in masses. So meatshields aren't DE themselves, reducing the amount of neccessary troops.

As elves, self-esteem and slow breeding lead to a force to be seen in the whole Galaxy but still a rare sight when comparing to other races


Eldar:
- most of them ceased to exist at the fall
- codex lists 11 craftworlds
- a craftworld seems to rival a standard world of other races in power but space elves are a elite force and low on numbers

So craftworlders, exodites & co would be still "the dying race" we usually see in backgrounds, highly skilled and specialized but never having the sizeable force for protracked engagements. The 4ok HE/WE equivalent should rank in population at the lower end.

IoM:

- space marines after 2nd founding estimated at a 1k chapters
- Imperial Navy provides enough transport capacity to ferry all the IG units and supplies around. Numbers ?
- Mechanicum. They must know themselves as they really like correct data but we are kept in the dark about their numbers. Usually able to defend themselves.
- Imperial Guard. Recrutement examples in the rulebook. Always provide enough men to throw in the meatgrinder of 40k.
- PDF. Examples for planets but as we just have a number for Imperial worlds in the rulebook without given percentages per type, rahter impossible to extrapolate.
- specialist forces like SoB, inq, etc. Are there, get their spotlight in 40k, but should not be counted before codices are redone.
- not even the Administratum knows the size of the Imperial forces nor their current state and location exactly. So how shall we know?
- IG codex claims the Imperial Guard as the largest military in the Galaxy. Debate this with your local commissar at will...

humans breed fast enough to replace most losses and accept a higher population density than other races. I'd place them in Top 3 too.


Necrons:
- conquered the Galaxy once.
- sleepy bunch of metal. We'll see where a new codex gets them. Actually the known Tomb worlds could be all of them. Could.......

some potential to be the new galaxy wide threat. Top 3 or not? Who knows...


Orks:
- fungi spread like noting else
- claim to outnumber the other races
- its known that orks are everywhere so maybe really part of the Top 3 of most numerous species.
- is there a difference made between orks and their smaller cousins? if not it may just be the greenskins that are so widespread.

a single line in a codex doesn't provide exact numbers. Still better than the stretchable extrapolations we may have for others.

Tau:
- 20? septs, minor colonies
- Nearly encircled by nids actually so maybe soon to be really down in numbers.
- as new guys, likely to go unnoticed till lately, but intend to grow leads to conflicts.

combined with allies a small empire. Only at 2nd place in the rulebook when it comes to new competitors.


Tyranids:
- some Hive-fleets known
- construct from biomass, so numbers may vary on chosen type of nid to produce
- kept in the dark as threat from outside the galaxy. Unknown if all Hive fleets showed up yet.

a bit of a joker type threat. Place as many as neccessary on the galactic map....

From smallest to largest...

Necrons is anyone's guess, though it's funnier to say they're population: 0 as they're all dead robot skeletons.

Tyranid is pretty low, with a population of 1, around ~5+ (known) if you want to consider the different fleets separate beings to each other or not.

Then Tau, who are confined to their populated planets in their confined space.

Eldar of all sorts are probably next. We don't know about comparative size of Eldar or Dark Eldar, but it's looking like Dark Eldar are larger. Exodites are said to be the most likely to thrive, so maybe they're the largest?

Size of a Craftworld according to GW (from BFG) ranges from moon sized to larger rocky-planet sized (Larger than Earth and similar but much smaller than Gas Giants still). Since it's populated throughout it, and they had to expand them to accommodate growth from their trading ship start they probably out-populate a hive world per Craftworld (only surface dwellers), though with more space so not by much.

Above them, it's anyone's guess. I would probably say IoM is next though.

Craftworlds are the size of a small planet(and are treated like one in BFG)

there are definitly more DE then Eldar. it was said that 95% of all Eldar died during the Fall. 4% became the DE, 1% the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar.



Tyranids have more organisms, but if you consider the fact that there is only 1 sentient mind for them all you will get Pop=1

all Tyranids become feral animals without the influence of the Hivemind.


Humans are the most populous race for sure(aside from nids, but they are funky)

Grey Templar wrote:there are definitly more DE then Eldar. it was said that 95% of all Eldar died during the Fall. 4% became the DE, 1% the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar.

In addition, the De started growing test-tube babies to replenish their depleted ranks. Only a minority of DE are born from a real mother. AFAIK, craftworld and exodites don't use these methods and still have babies the normal way.

Well, GW likes to point out the fact that there are 1000 regiments of 1000 Marines. That puts there rank's at about 1,000,000 Space Marines if my mental math does not fail me.

Estimating the population of Tyranids is pretty close to impossible, conisdering how quickly they can be bred. The speed of which they can be created means that they could outnumber the entire galaxy with enough biomass very quickly.

There are approx 1000 chapters of a 1000 marines each.


IF every chapter followed the codex and was at full strength this would be true.

but chapters like the Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Black Templars have more then the 1000 marines.

and some chapters like the Salamanders, or a newely founded chapter, have fewer then 1000 marines.


hopefully it all evens out in the end, but 1 million marines is the general rule.

Grey Templar wrote:Humans are the most populous race for sure(aside from nids, but they are funky)

I disagree, The Humans live in a more dense, but smaller area of a galaxy, while the orks are spread Lord knows how far. That said, the population of the orks drastically increase when there is much fighting abound. Since Millions of spores are relesed when a ork is killed (which is pretty often) the Ork population can eaisly outnumber the humans (and challange the tyranids) during a particually large WAAA[AAAAAAAAAA]GH!


POST NUMBER 69!

1hadhq wrote:


Dark Eldar:
- DE tend to attack badly defended targets. Its safe to assume the DE do not have the numbers to overwhelm just any target. If they had, their greed would keep them raiding whole systems...
- DE use mercenaries and redesigned creatures in masses. So meatshields aren't DE themselves, reducing the amount of neccessary troops.

The first point is mainly because of their tactics and nature. The DE have a focus on lightning raids that are Piratical in nature. They are only after three things: Loot, slaves, and inflicting pain. If you are trying to get those things, it wouldn't make sense to attack a planet that is of tactical importance to the enemy and thus highly defended. It would be so much more efficient to go around the defense, or pull the defenses away via subterfuge, and then attack. Plus, things tend to be more fun to kill when they can't fight back. If need be, they can attack heavily defended areas, as the story of Lady Malys stealing the STC from the Ad Mech states in the codex, but again, they fight smart. Rather than attacking head on, they lured an entire Ork fleet to attack instead.

Their use of mercs isn't really to keep the DE from having to fight themselves. They are just, well, allies I guess. You see, DE love going into combat. They are rejuvenated by it. Why let the mercs have all of the fun.

As is stated, the gestation period of an Eldar is long(years.) which would slow their population. But, the DE utilize cloning technology quite extensively. (Fabius Bile is actually working with the DE on that end.) Also, the Haemonculi can restore a DE warrior from the tiniest bit of flesh... for a price.

Trillions seems about right.

1hadhq wrote:Dark Eldar:
- DE tend to attack badly defended targets. Its safe to assume the DE do not have the numbers to overwhelm just any target. If they had, their greed would keep them raiding whole systems...
- DE use mercenaries and redesigned creatures in masses. So meatshields aren't DE themselves, reducing the amount of neccessary troops.

In addition to what jadebullet said, a "small" raid is enough to seize or kill every man, woman, and child on a planet with a population in the low billions (assuming the target is a fairly low density world) in a matter of hours or days, and they do frequently raid entire systems at once. The creations of the Haemonculi covens are also used mostly as shock troops: expendable, easily repaired creatures to wear out the defenders before the real Dark Eldar show up for the party.

However, they don't use cloning technology, they use artificial insemination in artificial wombs, that have a greatly accelerated gestation time, and Fabius Bile was tutored by a Haemonculi coven in M37.

jadebullet wrote:

Trillions seems about right.

Next thing is, they outnumber orks....

See, elfs of any sort never come in size.
All that this codex did, was to change the realm of the DE from a single "world" to a empire of several "worlds". Its good to give them enough darkspaceelfs to
actually participate regularly in the wars of 40k. But it still doesn't multiply them to trillions.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
In addition to what jadebullet said, a "small" raid is enough to seize or kill every man, woman, and child on a planet with a population in the low billions (assuming the target is a fairly low density world) in a matter of hours or days, and they do frequently raid entire systems at once.

Still circumventing the description of commoragh and DE in their own codex?
How about an example from codex DE?



Not sure why both of you seem to think a race of cunning agile space elfs need a massive force.
Isn't it perfectly valid to have these selfish pointy eared as a less numerous but "faster than you" faction?

Dark Eldar codex page 34

Each Archon has the power to steal away the populations of entire planets.

Daba wrote:Dark Eldar codex page 34

Each Archon has the power to steal away the populations of entire planets.

There is nothing to suggest that these are 'small' raids. (in fact I have no idea what a 'big' raid would be in that case). A typical raid would be conducted against a town or several population centers (as demonstrated in the Battle Missions DE scenario).

There's nothing suggesting 'big' or 'small'; we only have this example, and the example in Battle Missions where the Dark Eldar took an entire Hive.

Remember that 40k missions are much smaller than a normal force would be, as it concentrates on only one side of the battle, or a small skirmish. They aren't representative of a battle in the background.

Wouldn't the attention of one of the real ancient Archons count as a "big" raid?
(in fluff terms, we all know how rare characters in game terms can be...)

I'd assume the common Raid is performed by the minions of those Archons. Like the DE codex tells us about their nearly unslakable thirst so anything too small
may be an insult to the Archon and resulting in some "reassigned" Dracons...

Orks are the most numerous race. It's been flat out stated many times so there's no debating it.

Anyways OP, I believe there's well over 500 Billion Dark Eldar. The DE codex indicates there's more Craftworld Eldar than Drk Eldar so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Trillion Craftword Eldar out there.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Daba wrote:Dark Eldar codex page 34

Each Archon has the power to steal away the populations of entire planets.

There is nothing to suggest that these are 'small' raids. (in fact I have no idea what a 'big' raid would be in that case). A typical raid would be conducted against a town or several population centers (as demonstrated in the Battle Missions DE scenario).

Exactly, what would a big raid be? "Oh we just decided to kidnap Terra."

I guess a big raid would be taking as slaves the population of a relatively minor planet, with few defenses. It makes a lot more sense than "kidnapping an entire star system" because:

1°/ It would take ages to do so, or require a massive army and fleet (both things that the DE don't really have)

2°/ DE ships are relatively small and never fielded in huge armadas, so they would not have enough room to bring back to Commoragh 10 billion slaves at once anyway.

1hadhq wrote:

jadebullet wrote:

Trillions seems about right.

Next thing is, they outnumber orks....

See, elfs of any sort never come in size.
All that this codex did, was to change the realm of the DE from a single "world" to a empire of several "worlds". Its good to give them enough darkspaceelfs to
actually participate regularly in the wars of 40k. But it still doesn't multiply them to trillions.

It's a massive conglomeration of cities and estates that requires seven stars to power. The codex puts it at thousands of times the size of the largest of Imperial hives, if one assumes that "is to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites," is a gross exaggeration; taken literally it would be much, much larger. Even if we assume a comfortably low density compared to an Imperial Hive (which would seem to be less dense than a modern city (at least on average), once all's said and done), that still lands in the trillions. Which is somewhere around .1% of what the human population is.

Not sure why both of you seem to think a race of cunning agile space elfs need a massive force.
Isn't it perfectly valid to have these selfish pointy eared as a less numerous but "faster than you" faction?

That's not a massive force, it's the entire, fragmented race. We're just talking about an extremely large scale here.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways OP, I believe there's well over 500 Billion Dark Eldar. The DE codex indicates there's more Craftworld Eldar than Drk Eldar so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Trillion Craftword Eldar out there.

Both of those seem to be quite low estimates. Single Imperial worlds can break one trillion, and at least one is alleged to have a population in the tens of trillions (Terra). Shall the thriving, ever expanding webway cities, and more than half a dozen moon sized ships number less than what fits in a thin layer upon the surface of a single planet?

Hey guys, keep in mind that our current population of hour planet is 6.9 Billion people. Commorah is a massive Eshure(sp?) style conglomeration of realms all powered by 7 suns that dwarfs the largest supercities of the Imperium. The entire population of the race of the Dark Eldar should, and probably does, consist of at least 1 trillion people. Now, since the planet Earth/Terra can apparently hold over a Trillion people, it makes sense that Commorah could do at least the same.

Daba wrote:There's nothing suggesting 'big' or 'small'; we only have this example, and the example in Battle Missions where the Dark Eldar took an entire Hive.

Actually, they hit several mining colonies (of relatively minor population) and did not even apporach the main Hive.

Remember that 40k missions are much smaller than a normal force would be, as it concentrates on only one side of the battle, or a small skirmish. They aren't representative of a battle in the background.

You seem to have lost me here, I didn't say that 40k missions are representative of race population (otherwise Space Marines would be more common than guardsmen). The campaign represented in a 'typical' DE raid was shown alongside the 'typical' actions of other races, such as the process in which a Tyranid fleet feasts on a world (or fails to depending on the final stages).

The few examples were DE have been known to hit major planets have always been done with something to steal in mind (the STC is one example). If sucessful these undertakings are applauded (albeit with envy) by the whole of Commoragh. Emptying whole planets is not typical of the DE, striking major targets is not typical of DE, in fact it is seen as unwise to do so too often as it will eventually attract a retributive strike by the Imperium (which, as seen by Asdrubal Vect, is a severe threat to Commoragh).

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Actually, they hit several mining colonies (of relatively minor population) and did not even apporach the main Hive.

My mistake, I was referring to the Planetstrike one with the Eldar battle, not the Battle Missions one.

You seem to have lost me here, I didn't say that 40k missions are representative of race population (otherwise Space Marines would be more common than guardsmen). The campaign represented in a 'typical' DE raid was shown alongside the 'typical' actions of other races, such as the process in which a Tyranid fleet feasts on a world (or fails to depending on the final stages).

The few examples were DE have been known to hit major planets have always been done with something to steal in mind (the STC is one example). If sucessful these undertakings are applauded (albeit with envy) by the whole of Commoragh. Emptying whole planets is not typical of the DE, striking major targets is not typical of DE, in fact it is seen as unwise to do so too often as it will eventually attract a retributive strike by the Imperium (which, as seen by Asdrubal Vect, is a severe threat to Commoragh).

Ok, I see what you mean now. We have a range from a mining colony to a hive to an entire planet at the moment.

I don't think that a small raid would take entire planets, though it's not out of their capability.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

jadebullet wrote:

Trillions seems about right.

Next thing is, they outnumber orks....

See, elfs of any sort never come in size.
All that this codex did, was to change the realm of the DE from a single "world" to a empire of several "worlds". Its good to give them enough darkspaceelfs to
actually participate regularly in the wars of 40k. But it still doesn't multiply them to trillions.

It's a massive conglomeration of cities and estates that requires seven stars to power. The codex puts it at thousands of times the size of the largest of Imperial hives, if one assumes that "is to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites," is a gross exaggeration; taken literally it would be much, much larger. Even if we assume a comfortably low density compared to an Imperial Hive (which would seem to be less dense than a modern city (at least on average), once all's said and done), that still lands in the trillions. Which is somewhere around .1% of what the human population is.

Not sure why both of you seem to think a race of cunning agile space elfs need a massive force.
Isn't it perfectly valid to have these selfish pointy eared as a less numerous but "faster than you" faction?

That's not a massive force, it's the entire, fragmented race. We're just talking about an extremely large scale here.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyways OP, I believe there's well over 500 Billion Dark Eldar. The DE codex indicates there's more Craftworld Eldar than Drk Eldar so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Trillion Craftword Eldar out there.

Both of those seem to be quite low estimates. Single Imperial worlds can break one trillion, and at least one is alleged to have a population in the tens of trillions (Terra). Shall the thriving, ever expanding webway cities, and more than half a dozen moon sized ships number less than what fits in a thin layer upon the surface of a single planet?

Well in 3rd ed. they state the most populous planet is 500 Billion which I assume is Terra. So basically I think Terra has half a trillion people. I've never heard of anything cannon that states a population higher than that. The ten trillion number appears to be fan theories.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
It's a massive conglomeration of cities and estates that requires seven stars to power.

These nearly depleted stars which are unable to lighten the darkness?
Or maybe the DE like it that way, since the cults of sun/moon were beaten...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The codex puts it at thousands of times the size of the largest of Imperial hives, if one assumes that "is to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites," is a gross exaggeration; taken literally it would be much, much larger. Even if we assume a comfortably low density compared to an Imperial Hive (which would seem to be less dense than a modern city (at least on average), once all's said and done), that still lands in the trillions. Which is somewhere around .1% of what the human population is.

Physical size of a settlement isn't so important, population density is.
DE as predatory race, would act territorial and I am sure the moment you put some DE unwatched into a room there may just 1 leave the room afterwards...
Examples of imperial hives:
BRB,p115 MineA ( creative as GW is, specialising on mining...)
- population : 154.000.000.000
- Garrison : 2.000.000
- recrutement per year: 1.250.000
- so not-so-well defended but lots of workers...

BRB, p117, Macragge:
- population: 400.000.000
- obviously no data for garrison/recrutement
- as raw-model of a well run world, doesn't the medium population density hint at some variety?

BRB, p138 Imperial Army;
- Coronis Agathon/ Hive world
- population: 120.000.000.000
- garrison: 10.000.000
- points at a low recrutement rate, again. But maybe the workforce of hiveworlds is too important to be lessened by recruting their most capable youth?
- otoh, a garrison just has to delay until the imperium answers in force...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
it's the entire, fragmented race. We're just talking about an extremely large scale here.

And I still think you've got the scale wrong.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:. Single Imperial worlds can break one trillion, and at least one is alleged to have a population in the tens of trillions (Terra). Shall the thriving, ever expanding webway cities, and more than half a dozen moon sized ships number less than what fits in a thin layer upon the surface of a single planet?

As much as I am willing to run with your american way to name it, numbers instead of names may sometimes help.
Terra itself, has sources claiming just 10.000.000.000 inhabitants, now that may not include pilgrims and the defense force.
But it isn't that much if you look at GW's datasheets for planets like the one of Minea.

jadebullet wrote:Hey guys, keep in mind that our current population of hour planet is 6.9 Billion people. Commorah is a massive Eshure(sp?) style conglomeration of realms all powered by 7 suns that dwarfs the largest supercities of the Imperium. The entire population of the race of the Dark Eldar should, and probably does, consist of at least 1 trillion people. Now, since the planet Earth/Terra can apparently hold over a Trillion people, it makes sense that Commorah could do at least the same.

Not going to address the suns again,sorry.
Fact is, eldar are less numerous than humans. They live longer, some fo the DE till the Fall!, and breed slower.
Where Humans may populate the surface with Hives like ant-hills, DE would be the anteater.
Did the DE lose their whole 'upper class' when the Salamanders attacked?
Seems they don't have the numbers to drown an attacker in DE bodies.
Did the DE fight for weeks when a waagh made it into commoragh?
Seems the DE don't have such numerous forces to deal with some orks.
Do eldar of any color usually manipulate someone to do their bidding? Yes all of them. Includes DE.

IMO, the codex is clear how the realm of commoragh is to be seen.
But this isn't a teeming realm of trillions of DE.
There is nothing to draw halfway exact numbers from.
Fleets? Size of arenas? Size of cabals? How many Cabals are there?

Guessing from the Fluff of DE raids, they should be able to outsmart and outmaneuvre the unwary and claim their prize without suffering too many casualties.
But, since they have to keep casualties low, its safe to assume they don't have unlimited ressources and a nearly fully mobilised race like eldars should
run a rate of more than 70% combatants.