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So... the new Arachanrock flinger gives a unit it hits ASL. Would it have any effect against swordmasters? They already have ASL from their great weapons and they ignore it. Also, by implication, does that mean that it does NOTHING against any high elves? (I'm guessing it's meant to just give them "ASL", but as written, and with the High Elf faq, it seems like it might not).

I would think is one of the few things that would cause HE to actually strike last

Scarecrow456 wrote:I would think is one of the few things that would cause HE to actually strike last

You mean strike at initiative. ASL and ASF cancel out, and you're left at Init.


@OP: I believe they'll cancel out, as the only reason it doesn't for Swordmasters and their Great Weapons is because the HE rule grants ASF regardless of what weapon they're using, not any spell, enemy magic item, or attack that grants it. At least, that's how it reads to me.

Checking the HE FAQ, it should move them down to swinging on their initiative with no re-rolls. This is because said FAQ deals specifically with ignoring ASL from weapons. This is from a different source so will affect them as normal. Bolded emphasis is mine. Platu above has it right (that'll learn me to read before I post).

Q. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.” How does this interact with a great weapons
Always Strike Last? (p43)
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For
example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great
weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his
opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.

Thanks -- I should have checked the wording. Good to know

I'm going to say they ASL.
They ASL webs cancel the ASF (which includes the regardless of weapon).
So now you've got an elf without ASF, armed with a great weapon, rules say great weapons ASL.

Because the regardless of weapon is part of the ASF statement, and that rule is canceled out, I believe striking last is correct.

-Matt

Rules don't stack (unless stated otherwise), so you can't get ASL twice.

I would, however, state that they strike at Initiative Order if the rule specifically states that they only ignore a Weapon-Caused variety of ASL.

That's an interesting situation. As Minsc stated, rules don't stack so they can't take ASL twice. However, is it really stacking in Matt's situation? The web's ASL removes the HE's ASF. Without this super-special pleasebuymoreswordmasters ASF, they don't get a special bonus to ignore a weapon's ASL. It's not really taking ASL twice, it's removing what allows them to ignore the original ASL.

Gah. Just shoot them or throw fanatics at them.

The web's ASL removes the HE's ASF.

Not entirely true. The web just gives the unit it hits ASL. The Swordmasters can ignore the ASL granted by their two handed weapons, and strike at ASF. Now you apply the ASL from the web to the current condition of the High Elves (ASF). You now have a unit that has ASF, hit with something that causes ASL. When the two special rules interact, we are told that they "cancel each other out" which isn't removing the condition, merely cancelling the effect. End result should be elves that strike in initiative order.

That makes sense to me. Good point about ASL not removing existing ASF, it just interacts in a different manner.

Really though, don't fling at them. Just roll the trio of goblin chariots in. 3D6+3 impact hits, killing on 2's gets the job done.

-Matt

Gobbo chariots are S5 and have Scythed wheels? Oh come on!

It's true... and they're cheap too!

Yep, M9, cheap as chips and scythed. Half a ton each is crriminally cheap You can even make *pump wagons* S5 for 2D6 impact hits!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, M9, cheap as chips and scythed. Half a ton each is crriminally cheap You can even make *pump wagons* S5 for 2D6 impact hits!

Which, when I roll a pair of 1's, is the same as D6+1.
Well, not exactly the same, I feel much worse when I do it with a pump wagon.

Really though, take BOTH.
With savages with the 'Uge spear thingy, you could make an impact army.
General with impact hit armor, Characters on chariots, savages with uge spear, wolf chariots as specials, and pump wagons as rares. It's a down right elf killer I tell you.


-Matt

I was looking at the wagons last night - giving them the 3D6 movement upgrade as well as S5 means you have a reasonable chance of turn 1 (if they take first turn and move otwards you) impact hitting a nasty unit, and potentially tarpitting it with a cheap unbreakable unit. You could be really mean and take the "no armour saves" impact hit upgrde as well, but against elves that's definitely overkill!

...you could splurge 5 extra points to do it over a forest/lake/cliff for extra comedic value.

The "don't roll 2+ 1's for movement" rule is funny...but not exactly a hindrance.
Guess it makes up for the Squig Hoppers "Extra Boingy" or whatever. Triple sixes? So...every 36 games, I'll do it once. And every...dozen of those times, it will actually (1) bring me into combat (2) actually be a situation where the massive distance/extra wounds will matter.
...hurray.

But seriously, this thread was pretty sick. Reminds me of "the stack" from Magic the Gathering.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I was looking at the wagons last night - giving them the 3D6 movement upgrade as well as S5 means you have a reasonable chance of turn 1 (if they take first turn and move otwards you) impact hitting a nasty unit, and potentially tarpitting it with a cheap unbreakable unit. You could be really mean and take the "no armour saves" impact hit upgrde as well, but against elves that's definitely overkill!

I'd go either no save or +1 strength, you don't really need both. The bottom of turn 1 charge is a long shot. With 24+" to cover, you're going to need something pretty close to risk coming up short.
I see pump wagons as a good pairing for deep blocks of goblins. Steadfast then using wagons to break the stalemate.

-Matt

Main reason I see Pump Wagons, as always, is to watch-out for Ambushers and the like. You want to put that unit with Wulfrik behind me? Sure thing, but you're about to risk up to 4D6 S4 (or S5) hits on them before they can do diddly, so you can bet on that unit not hitting intact.

Anti-Ambush and Anti-Flanker, really.

Played against the UK ETC champ last night (I'm really not that good a player, so I assumed I was in for a thrashing from the off!) with his new O&G list.

He had 2 PW with S5 upgrade, nothing else. One, which is cavalry / big nasty hunter had S5 and no armour saves. Combined with the 2 manglers and unit of squig hoppers I was almost iedialty stripped of my skinks, etc, and they then took vital wounds off my big blocks. They really arent to be underestimated!

The new fanatics are wrong - if you dont pop them out before charging in you WILL take 2D6 from any you contact; you no longer have a chance of them passing "through" your block (initial 2D6 roll was further than your block is deep)