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Evening chums,

The main reason for linking this story is due to me informing people that this activity was common knowledge a while back and promptly having to argue the toss with some of our more left leaning friends on here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12694266

Basically they got caught red handed, giving rockets to the Taliban, now, this might be a slight exacgeration, but i see it like this.

The Iranians are directly responsible for the deaths of a great many of the ISAF soldiers deaths in Afghanistan.

I cant speak on an open source too much about my military activity, but suffice to say it is well known via open source that they were also supplying AIF (Anti iraqi Forces) with rockets and munitions for their attacks on British and American targets in Iraq.

I am very pissed off about it.

I believe that they are directly responible for the lions share of our losses in both countries, I did 2 tours of Afghanistan and 2 tours of Iraq and this bears heavily upon me, my question is this.

Clearly we do not have the resources to take the Iranians on in a war at the moment, and lets be honest, it cannot happen for numerous other reasons. What do you believe the end game is going to be?

Is Iran likely to descend into civil war in the near future? What actions should we take in the event?

Do you think that our governments have such short memories that they will forget what the Iranian administration has been doing the last ten years?

What is your long term view of our complex and disturbing relationship with the Iranians?

And seriously, doesnt anybody else feel like they really really deserve an ass kicking?

Maybe we can coax the Israelis into malleting them!

I'm NOT defending Iran in this, because it's clear that Iranian military supplies have a history of "mysteriously" ending up in the hands of insurgents/terrorists.

However, are we sure that this is officially sanctioned activity by Iran, and not theft/smuggling of Iranian weapons? I noticed that Iran didn't trot out that excuse, but the BBC doesn't directly link Tehran to the weapons either.

The cave-dwellers in Afghanistan/Pakistan are also probably not producing their own small arms, so they need to be getting those from outside the country as well. Are those being smuggled through Iran?

Yep, they're taking the piss. It's what they do.

Saying that, the West did the exact same thing during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan - you can hardly blame the Iranians for wanting to fight a proxy war out there. It's the only feasible sort of war they CAN fight - they would be decimated in an open conflict. So, it's a douche move, but also a pretty shrewd move. They should, however, have had their gak pushed in years ago, either by the Israelis or by the Anglo-American alliance.

Nothing new here. Iran is vicariously attacking Israel through Hezbollah & Hamas, killing our soldiers with supplied IEDs in Iraq and has de facto control over oil markets thanks to their presence at the Straight Of Hormuz. Hooray Iran.

I don't think Israel will need much coaxing when this powder keg will go off.

This is news because?

I seem to remember it being a fairly well-established fact that Iranian weapons were being brought across the border to Iraqi militia when I did my tour there so this comes as no shock.

I used to produce maps showing potential egress routes along the Shatt-Al-Arab canal. Not surprising they are doing the same for the Taliban.

This is only news because they nailed them right on the border.

Pick the leaders from each faction and lock them in a room together. They only have food and water for 2 days. They must reach a peaceable solution to be let out. Beyond something as ridiculous as this scenario, I have no idea besides total annihilation or just completely ignoring them.

Edit: While oil is a concern, let's just get off it already. Stop giving in to the corporations and lobbyists who want to see things stay the same and make change happen. How much power does Iran really have then?

I'm pretty sure every country on earth sold missiles to the taliban at one point or another.

Albatross wrote:Yep, they're taking the piss. It's what they do.

Saying that, the West did the exact same thing during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan - you can hardly blame the Iranians for wanting to fight a proxy war out there. It's the only feasible sort of war they CAN fight - they would be decimated in an open conflict. So, it's a douche move, but also a pretty shrewd move. They should, however, have had their gak pushed in years ago, either by the Israelis or by the Anglo-American alliance.

I don't understand the need to war with Iran. It doesn't do anything Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or a host of north African nations did and are currently doing. They're vocally anti American, but words don't really do much damage and we did prop up the shah to the detriment of democracy for quite some time. It's not like they're actually threatening to us or realistically the Israelis. About the worst they could do is launch an ineffectual and quickly demolished offensive or drop a nuke in a few years. Both of which would result in the total dismantling of their country. The same could be said for virtually every country on earth.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's not like they're actually threatening to us or realistically the Israelis. About the worst they could do is launch an ineffectual and quickly demolished offensive or drop a nuke in a few years. Both of which would result in the total dismantling of their country. The same could be said for virtually every country on earth.

Or they could supply militants in a third party nation with weapons to attack our troops, prolong the conflict, and use it as a rallying cry to recruit more crazies to go die against the evil Americans who won't leave those poor Muslims alone.

Which is what they're doing.

biccat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It's not like they're actually threatening to us or realistically the Israelis. About the worst they could do is launch an ineffectual and quickly demolished offensive or drop a nuke in a few years. Both of which would result in the total dismantling of their country. The same could be said for virtually every country on earth.

Or they could supply militants in a third party nation with weapons to attack our troops, prolong the conflict, and use it as a rallying cry to recruit more crazies to go die against the evil Americans who won't leave those poor Muslims alone.

Which is what they're doing.

Which kills less Americans then car accidents annually, while (note how I said this in my post) not doing any different then Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and a host of north african countries. Iran isn't somehow special for doing this. Hell, it's unlikely they give more per capita then Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to anti western extremists who've been bankrolling them as mini ideological armies for decades.

ShumaGorath wrote:

biccat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It's not like they're actually threatening to us or realistically the Israelis. About the worst they could do is launch an ineffectual and quickly demolished offensive or drop a nuke in a few years. Both of which would result in the total dismantling of their country. The same could be said for virtually every country on earth.

Or they could supply militants in a third party nation with weapons to attack our troops, prolong the conflict, and use it as a rallying cry to recruit more crazies to go die against the evil Americans who won't leave those poor Muslims alone.

Which is what they're doing.

Which kills less Americans then car accidents annually, while (note how I said this in my post) not doing any different then Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and a host of north african countries. Iran isn't somehow special for doing this. Hell, it's unlikely they give more per capita then Saudi Arabia or Pakistan to anti western extremists who've been bankrolling them as mini ideological armies for decades.

Do you have any support for your claim that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and North African countries are sending weapons into Afghanistan?

Also, if we opened up a 'third front' (really consolodated into one front), would the deaths from those '3' wars still be less than Americans killed by car accidents annually? What does this have to do with anything?

Do you have any support for your claim that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and North African countries are sending weapons into Afghanistan?

I'll let you do your own research, though if you are unaware of the ISIs funding of AQiA or the Taliban then you shoud reeeaaalllly do some actual research into these topics. The ISI has funded extremist operations as a buffer to counter Indian power for decades and as the governance in pakistan has weakened the extremists have grown more capable and symbiotic.

Hell, the word "pakistan" is used 160 times in the wiki on the taliban. As for the connections for SA or north africa I'll just let you wiki it or something. I watched the WeakmanObama thread. I know where these posts are going.

Also, if we opened up a 'third front' (really consolodated into one front), would the deaths from those '3' wars still be less than Americans killed by car accidents annually? What does this have to do with anything?

More then forty thousand Americans die in auto accidents per year. Just drawing a contrast between the importance of "militant violence" and "lol car accidents". One being in the news daily and a source of trillians in expense (despite being the merest fraction of importance compared to the other) and the other being relatively unimportant socially.

biccat wrote:I'm NOT defending Iran in this, because it's clear that Iranian military supplies have a history of "mysteriously" ending up in the hands of insurgents/terrorists.

However, are we sure that this is officially sanctioned activity by Iran, and not theft/smuggling of Iranian weapons? I noticed that Iran didn't trot out that excuse, but the BBC doesn't directly link Tehran to the weapons either.

Its certainly possible. It's (reasonably) well known that Iran is not popular amongst many of the more hard-line Islamic groups (Al-Qaeda etc.), and there may be individuals sympathetic to those people within the Iranian military. Of course, it's also possible that this is nothing more than the sort of thing that the US did with the Contras; ie. aid by proxy.

biccat wrote:
The cave-dwellers in Afghanistan/Pakistan are also probably not producing their own small arms, so they need to be getting those from outside the country as well. Are those being smuggled through Iran?

They're may be coming from Pakistan, for the most part, as the ISI is thought to contain a large number of Islamist sympathizers. There's also all the other Central Asian states to consider, as most of them are relatively ungoverned outside the major cities; at least in the sense that governance refers to the central state.

You can't blame the Iranians, they got the idea from Mark Thatcher

ShumaGorath wrote:

Do you have any support for your claim that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and North African countries are sending weapons into Afghanistan?

I'll let you do your own research, though if you are unaware of the ISIs funding of AQiA or the Taliban then you shoud reeeaaalllly do some actual research into these topics. The ISI has funded extremist operations as a buffer to counter Indian power for decades and as the governance in pakistan has weakened the extremists have grown more capable and symbiotic.

Hell, the word "pakistan" is used 160 times in the wiki on the taliban. As for the connections for SA or north africa I'll just let you wiki it or something.

Awesome. I appreciate your excellent sourcing of relevant issues.

I look forward to using this sourcing method in the future.

Don't believe me? See here.

biccat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Do you have any support for your claim that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and North African countries are sending weapons into Afghanistan?

I'll let you do your own research, though if you are unaware of the ISIs funding of AQiA or the Taliban then you shoud reeeaaalllly do some actual research into these topics. The ISI has funded extremist operations as a buffer to counter Indian power for decades and as the governance in pakistan has weakened the extremists have grown more capable and symbiotic.

Hell, the word "pakistan" is used 160 times in the wiki on the taliban. As for the connections for SA or north africa I'll just let you wiki it or something.

Awesome. I appreciate your excellent sourcing of relevant issues.

I look forward to using this sourcing method in the future.

Don't believe me? See here.

I stated in the post itself that I don't care to provide sources for this discussion. If you want a history lesson in mideast politics buy a book or something. I watched what you did to the obama thread about libya, and frankly the idea of explaining every piece of minutae relevant to geopolitics and socio economics for a large section of the world because you need it isn't appetizing to me.

Was anyone claiming Iran doesn't supply other factions with weapons. I mean, if nothing else who was unaware of Hezbolah?

I can see people arguing that war with them would still be a really bad idea, or saying that it was no different to the Saudi's giving piles of money to terrorist groups, but I don't remember anyone claiming that Iran wasn't funding terrorism.

As for what we do about? Try to contain Iran as best we can. Try to restrict their nuclear weapons regime as best we can. Hope that somewhere down the track the government will normalise or have an internal revolution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll let you do your own research, though if you are unaware of the ISIs funding of AQiA or the Taliban then you shoud reeeaaalllly do some actual research into these topics. The ISI has funded extremist operations as a buffer to counter Indian power for decades and as the governance in pakistan has weakened the extremists have grown more capable and symbiotic.

To be fair, so were the Indians. The Indians even ended up accidentally starting a war and creating a new country out of their meddling.

To be fair, so were the Indians. The Indians even ended up accidentally starting a war and creating a new country out of their meddling.

To my knowledge Pakistan has considerably more cookie crumbs on their hands these days, though it was a wild wild east for quite some time.

mattyrm wrote:
Clearly we do not have the resources to take the Iranians on in a war at the moment, and lets be honest, it cannot happen for numerous other reasons. What do you believe the end game is going to be?

Is Iran likely to descend into civil war in the near future? What actions should we take in the event?

Do you think that our governments have such short memories that they will forget what the Iranian administration has been doing the last ten years?

What is your long term view of our complex and disturbing relationship with the Iranians?

And seriously, doesnt anybody else feel like they really really deserve an ass kicking?

Maybe we can coax the Israelis into malleting them!

Have faith, eventually the U.S. will elect another warhawk...

Sorry for the semi-necropost here but I have to take issue with this:

The cave-dwellers in Afghanistan/Pakistan are also probably not producing their own small arms, so they need to be getting those from outside the country as well. Are those being smuggled through Iran?

Pakistan currently has a whole lot of people building things like AKMs from scratch. With hand tools. Look up Durra/Peshawar for example, theres a whole boatload of that happening. The Afghans have been doing similar on varying scales since the Russians were the local great-satan. Are they on par with an AK-103 with all the fixins fresh off the line, loaded with lapua ammo and then handed to an olympic level marksman? Heck no! But uh...They don't have to be to put a hole in a man at a few hundred meters. Or dump a magazine across a room (Though admittedly, the rifles sometimes explode!)

Modern firearms are designed to be cheap and easy to produce, after all, you have to arm hundreds of thousands of men and women with them and in large part...designers succeeded. Couple that with a giant surplus of small arms from governments falling in that general region or captured during fighting...or weapons they obtained from us directly or indirectly by US aid when they were only beheading and killing people we didn't like....Well...Iran smuggling weapons at least for small arms/infantry weapons is a pretty small potatoes, as rage inducing as it might be.