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If an independent character turbo-boosts and ends his movement within 2" of another unit (joining said unit) what does everyone count as having done in the movement phase?
does the IC count as turbo-boosting and thus have a 3+ coversave while being attached to the unit?
can the unit now assault since the IC turbo-boosted in the movement phase?

Reference pg. 48 - Independent Characters joining and leaving Units
Reference pg. 76 - turbo-boosters

Katfish! wrote:If an independent character turbo-boosts and ends his movement within 2" of another unit (joining said unit) what does everyone count as having done in the movement phase?

The IC counts as having used Turbo Boosting (with all the relevant restrictions on shooting/assaulting/etc) and the unit he joins will count as doing whatever they did in the movement phase. Specifically, if they didn't move, the don't automatically count as moving when the IC joins them (Pg 48, Second Column, 4th bullet).

Katfish! wrote:does the IC count as turbo-boosting and thus have a 3+ coversave while being attached to the unit?

I would say that even though he might lose the ability to Turbo Boost once he joins the unit (if the unit he joins does not have it), since Turbo Boosting grants a cover save to "the bike", dependent on how far he moved in the previous movement phase, that the IC would receive a 3+ cover save but the unit does not.

Katfish! wrote:can the unit now assault since the IC turbo-boosted in the movement phase?

No, because the IC Turbo Boosted (which specifically forbids launching assaults) and the unit cannot separate from the IC during the assault phase.

Additionally, if the unit the IC joins does not have Turbo Boosters, the IC can't use his Turbo Boosters until the movement phase after he separates from the unit. Basically you can't Turbo Boost out of coherency unless the unit is capable of Turbo Boosting too.

At least that's how I read it.

DoW

Hmm, that would be an iffy one actually, because in the Shooting phase, the character would count as moving but the unit would not, but if the unit had gone to ground and the IC joins, he automatically goes to ground......


It also states that only bikes can use turbo boosters, so I would say that unless they are on bikes, its a definite no. If they are on bikes, then I would say its between you and your opponent, but if they did get the benefits, they would have to suffer the penalties also, aka no shooting or assaulting.

Nothing happens to the unit.

The ic still turbo boosted, so yes the save is still his, as is:

The fact that the unit can't assault since someone in it can't.

DogOfWar wrote:Additionally, if the unit the IC joins does not have Turbo Boosters, the IC can't use his Turbo Boosters until the movement phase after he separates from the unit. Basically you can't Turbo Boost out of coherency unless the unit is capable of Turbo Boosting too.

At least that's how I read it.

Actually he could turbo boost the next movement phase, because all he has to do is end the phase out of coherency, and the turbo boost would definitely do that. I know it states that they move at the slowest models speed, but if he plans on leaving the unit anyway, as long as he doesn't end within 2" of the unit, I would let him Turbo-boost, especially if he states that the IC is leaving the unit. But then again, some people are more strict on this kind of thing than I am.

Galador wrote:Actually he could turbo boost the next movement phase, because all he has to do is end the phase out of coherency, and the turbo boost would definitely do that. I know it states that they move at the slowest models speed, but if he plans on leaving the unit anyway, as long as he doesn't end within 2" of the unit, I would let him Turbo-boost, especially if he states that the IC is leaving the unit. But then again, some people are more strict on this kind of thing than I am.

I think the only problem with starting a Turbo Boost move while attached to a unit that does not have the Turbo Boost ability is the fact that it is an 'asterisk' USR (meaning that he automatically loses it upon joining).

Even if he ends out of coherency, he can't start his move as a Turbo Boost move because he only gets the ability back when he is no longer attached to the unit, which only happens after he's already moved out of coherency.

Long story short, probably best to not attach ICs on bikes to infantry units.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I think the only problem with starting a Turbo Boost move while attached to a unit that does not have the Turbo Boost ability is the fact that it is an 'asterisk' USR (meaning that he automatically loses it upon joining).

If he loses the rule upon joining a unit without Turbo Boost, wouldn't he at that time lose all parts of the rule and immediately lose his 3+ cover save as well?

DogOfWar wrote:

Galador wrote:Actually he could turbo boost the next movement phase, because all he has to do is end the phase out of coherency, and the turbo boost would definitely do that. I know it states that they move at the slowest models speed, but if he plans on leaving the unit anyway, as long as he doesn't end within 2" of the unit, I would let him Turbo-boost, especially if he states that the IC is leaving the unit. But then again, some people are more strict on this kind of thing than I am.

I think the only problem with starting a Turbo Boost move while attached to a unit that does not have the Turbo Boost ability is the fact that it is an 'asterisk' USR (meaning that he automatically loses it upon joining).

Even if he ends out of coherency, he can't start his move as a Turbo Boost move because he only gets the ability back when he is no longer attached to the unit, which only happens after he's already moved out of coherency.

Long story short, probably best to not attach ICs on bikes to infantry units.

DoW

I do agree with you, and in a Tourney, would stick to this. In a friendly game though, I would let them turbo boost just for simplicity of the rules and to move the game along.

time wizard wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:I think the only problem with starting a Turbo Boost move while attached to a unit that does not have the Turbo Boost ability is the fact that it is an 'asterisk' USR (meaning that he automatically loses it upon joining).

If he loses the rule upon joining a unit without Turbo Boost, wouldn't he at that time lose all parts of the rule and immediately lose his 3+ cover save as well?

Amazing!!! Something we actually agree on!!!! Now if I could just get you to see the light on the WWP rules....

time wizard wrote:If he loses the rule upon joining a unit without Turbo Boost, wouldn't he at that time lose all parts of the rule and immediately lose his 3+ cover save as well?

I don't know, I guess you could probably read it both ways but whether the IC loses Turbo Boosters or not, he still counts as having moved more than 18" from his starting point in the following enemy player's shooting phase. I'd say that still grants the 3+ cover save.

Galador, I agree. It's probably not a common occurrence so I would probably let it slide in a friendly game too. I doubt it would be game changing.

DoW

All cover saves are base on 50% of the unit having a save. If you want to use that Turbo boost save you need to join a single model or (more difficult to achieve) join a unit in cover but without a majority cover save.

Tri wrote:All cover saves are base on 50% of the unit having a save. If you want to use that Turbo boost save you need to join a single model or (more difficult to achieve) join a unit in cover but without a majority cover save.

Sorta, "In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast-moving targets." TURBO-BOOSTERS* Pg 76

"Roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered from incoming fire and compare the results to the model’s Sv characteristic." TAKE SAVING THROWS Pg 20, under armour saves.

This is the really important bit; "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves.

If less than half of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit counts as exposed and none of its models may take cover saves." Units partially in cover Pg 22

So if a turbo-booster join a unit 'in cover', it may take a cover save. This cover save would be the 3+ as saves are taken on a per model basis (this is backed up by pretty much every bit of wound allocation rule present in the rule book), the turbo-booster would also benefit from the units cover save but as that (usually) wouldn't be the 'best available save' it can be ignored.

If a turbo-booster was to lose the 3+CS then one would also have to assume the model would forget about the other effects of the turbo-booster rule, moving, shooting, assaulting.

I had completely forgotten about all the cover save rules (50%, best save, etc) thanks! Although would it be true that if the IC Turbo Boosted up to another IC in the middle of open terrain, they could both take a 3+ cover save?

ChrisCP wrote:If a turbo-booster was to lose the 3+CS then one would also have to assume the model would forget about the other effects of the turbo-booster rule, moving, shooting, assaulting.

I don't know about this one... it seems a little OP to have a beefy IC on a bike Turbo Boost 24", join a squad (that is not in cover), and then be able to assault as well.

For some reason that doesn't make sense to me. I think you're still restricted by what you've already done that turn, even if you do lose the USR.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I had completely forgotten about all the cover save rules (50%, best save, etc) thanks! Although would it be true that if the IC Turbo Boosted up to another IC in the middle of open terrain, they could both take a 3+ cover save?

No because the TB rule says 'the bike' that turbo boosted gets the 3+ save.

50% of the unit, etc, only apply to getting cover from terrain. If one model is getting a cover save from wargear, a special rule, psychic power, etc, it wouldn't matter whether the rest of his unit could or couldn't get it.

I do concur, however, that if the IC joins a unit without the Turbo-boosters rule he'd technically lose it, thanks to losing the USR. The USR is what gives him access to that cover save. And I guess that would technically free him of the assault prohibition too... Yeah, on reflection, I agree that the better way to play it is that he keeps his cover save and they can't assault. That best fits the rules without creating an absurd situation.

Mannahnin wrote:50% of the unit, etc, only apply to getting cover from terrain. If one model is getting a cover save from wargear, a special rule, psychic power, etc, it wouldn't matter whether the rest of his unit could or couldn't get it.

What exactly removes the rule "Units Partially in cover"? second/third paragraphs are quite clear that A) 50% all the unit is in cover B) less then 50% none of its models may take a cover save. It is one of the key points of a cover save, ether the unit has a cover save or doesn't and every one uses the same save.

The word "in".

There is a difference between models being "in" cover, and models having cover saves.

Of course 99.999% of the time, when models get cover saves(via special rules), the whole unit is granted that cover save; Bike ICs turbo-boosting into joining with a non-turbo-boosting unit is the only case i can think of where a special rule may grant a cover save that does not automatically apply to the entire unit(KFF "obscuring" a Vehicle in a squadron is another, but the Whole squadron still gets the 5+cover save; whether or not they can use that 5+ has been debated ad nauseum).

Kommissar Kel wrote:The word "in".

There is a difference between models being "in" cover, and models having cover saves.

Of course 99.999% of the time, when models get cover saves(via special rules), the whole unit is granted that cover save; Bike ICs turbo-boosting into joining with a non-turbo-boosting unit is the only case i can think of where a special rule may grant a cover save that does not automatically apply to the entire unit(KFF "obscuring" a Vehicle in a squadron is another, but the Whole squadron still gets the 5+cover save; whether or not they can use that 5+ has been debated ad nauseum).

What you are describing is not a cover save that is an invulnerable save. There was a big shift in how cover saves worked in 4th Ed to how they work now. In 4th models could get cover saves, in 5th its units; also in 4th turbo boosting gave units an invulnerable save (= to their armour save).

In many ways its like saying that a special rule that gives an armour save (daemons) isn't affect by AP as its there because its a special rule. The simple truth is that any cover save follows all the rules for cover saves, the same way that any armour save follows all the rules for armour saves.

Tri wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:50% of the unit, etc, only apply to getting cover from terrain. If one model is getting a cover save from wargear, a special rule, psychic power, etc, it wouldn't matter whether the rest of his unit could or couldn't get it.

What exactly removes the rule "Units Partially in cover"? second/third paragraphs are quite clear that A) 50% all the unit is in cover B) less then 50% none of its models may take a cover save. It is one of the key points of a cover save, ether the unit has a cover save or doesn't and every one uses the same save.

Not at all. That section applies only to models/units in cover, and limits how they get cover saves from cover.

It has no bearing on cover saves gained from wargear, special rules, or psychic powers, which have their own eligibility criteria. Otherwise you'd need 50% of the models in a squad of 30 orks to be within 6" of the KFF. Which is not the case.

Tri wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:The word "in".

There is a difference between models being "in" cover, and models having cover saves.

Of course 99.999% of the time, when models get cover saves(via special rules), the whole unit is granted that cover save; Bike ICs turbo-boosting into joining with a non-turbo-boosting unit is the only case i can think of where a special rule may grant a cover save that does not automatically apply to the entire unit(KFF "obscuring" a Vehicle in a squadron is another, but the Whole squadron still gets the 5+cover save; whether or not they can use that 5+ has been debated ad nauseum).

What you are describing is not a cover save that is an invulnerable save. There was a big shift in how cover saves worked in 4th Ed to how they work now. In 4th models could get cover saves, in 5th its units; also in 4th turbo boosting gave units an invulnerable save (= to their armour save).

In many ways its like saying that a special rule that gives an armour save (daemons) isn't affect by AP as its there because its a special rule. The simple truth is that any cover save follows all the rules for cover saves, the same way that any armour save follows all the rules for armour saves.

What i was describing is cover saves; actually any saves of any type; the rules on cover saves generally assume the save is from either being "in" or behind cover providing terrain. Most special rules that grant cover saves grant those saves to the unit that is within a certain distance(as defined by the special rule itself); as I said that .001% of instances where individual models may or may not gain a cover save is the only time the "units partially in cover" does not apply.

their are 2 seperate ways to gain a Cover Save:
Being in/behind cover.
Having cover granted via special rule.

The first is governed by the partially in cover rules the second is not. Page 21 defines what being/not being "in" cover is; no reference to cover-granting special rules is ever given; only TLOS.

Mannahnin wrote:Not at all. That section applies only to models/units in cover, and limits how they get cover saves from cover.

It has no bearing on cover saves gained from wargear, special rules, or psychic powers, which have their own eligibility criteria. Otherwise you'd need 50% of the models in a squad of 30 orks to be within 6" of the KFF. Which is not the case.

No with Kustom force field the rule gives any unit (friendly unit) with a model within 6" a 5+ cover save. If it was models within 6" get a 5+ cover save you'd need 50% within range to get the save (or have another source of cover to combine with it). That section is the rules for coversaves, ignoring part because you don't like it is the same as a daemon player ignoring Armour piercing because his armour save is a special rule.

Kommissar Kel wrote:their are 2 seperate ways to gain a Cover Save:
Being in/behind cover.
Having cover granted via special rule.

And unless you can post a rule saying other wise must follow the cover-save rules. One model counts as in cover no one else does then no models can claim a cover save. Simple



Still if you want to play silly b'ers you cannot claim that cover save any way as the unit has not move 18". Also you cannot execute any voluntary actions in the same turn as you use turbo boosters, so no joining units.

Sure thing, boss:

BRB Page 21, "When are models in cover?": When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

BRB page 76, "Turbo boosters", 4th sentence: in the following enemy shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast moving targets.

Now clearly turbo-boosting bikes are never "In Cover" by definition, so Either you are saying that Turbo-boosting Provides no defensive benefit; or it works exactly as I detailed for you earlier.

Mann already explained to you how the KFF Grants a Cover save(still while not actually being In cover, again by definition).

As to the last Part:

2-bits:

First: the turbo-booster rule(which I quoted above) states the bike(unit type) gets the Cover save, not the unit.

Second: Joining a unit is not a Voluntary action, if you are an IC within 2" of a friendly unit, you join that unit.

I expressly remember a rule however my books in storage at this moment. Isnt there something stating that a unit that turbo boosts may not do anything else that turn? This should include joining another unit eh?

There is vaguely such a rule; When A bike turbo-boosts it may not do anything Voluntarily(also immune to pinning).

Of course joining a unit is not a Voluntary action, it is a matter of Proximity; if you are within 2' of a friendly unit, and an IC, you join that unit(unless you are already part of another unit; and in any cases where you are within 2" of more than 1 unit it is your choice which unit you join, this includes having been attached to a unit, and ending within 2" of another unit).

I'm sorry but the rules for what the unit can or can not do is quite simple and very straightforward.

While an independent character is part of a unit he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stayed together...... now, not being able to assault due to turbo boosting seems to be a slowest move possible to me.

Secondly.. and this is also a important part:
An independent character moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the character counts as having moved in the ensuing shooting phase, but the unit does not. ... Meaning he can turbo boost to a unit and then the unit is still able to fire.

Thirdly as to an answer about the saves. This is also under Independent Characters under the subsection Special Rules:
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

And Turbo-Boosting is a special rule.

And if you want to ask about him turbo boosting into a unit of bikes, turbo boosting specifically states that every model in the unit must of moved at least 18" to gain this special save.

Any questions?

mpangelu wrote:Thirdly as to an answer about the saves. This is also under Independent Characters under the subsection Special Rules:
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

And Turbo-Boosting is a special rule.

And if you want to ask about him turbo boosting into a unit of bikes, turbo boosting specifically states that every model in the unit must of moved at least 18" to gain this special save.

Any questions?

Just this, the special rule section goes on to say that in some cases the independent character or the unit might lose their special rule as a result of the character joining the unit.

Turbo-boosting is a USR marked with an asterisk so it is a rule that is automatically lost by an independent character joining the unit.

So when the character turbo-boosts and joins a unit without the turbo-boost rule, he loses the rule automatically. So doesn't he lose all parts of the rule at that point?

I think he technically would. But the outcome is sufficiently absurd and broken (turbo 36" on a DE jetbike, join a unit, and still be able to assault) that I can't see playing it that way.

I have quite a stron inkling that joining units is a voluntary action.

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2"... If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase." Pg 48

One makes a choice (moving within 2") with the intention of joining a unit, that's how the action of joining a unit is performed. If one can't or chooses not too, then one must stay more 2" away.

being joined to a unit is determined at the End of the movement phase; if Joining was Voluntary as you say then a Unit of bikes with attached caharcter can never turbo boost, and especially never turbo-boost to within 2" of another unit(as you must announce which unit the character is joined to at the end of the movement phase).

If there character is already attached then how do the rules prevent them from turbo boosting, please show how you have used the rules to reach this conclusion.

Joining is voluntary as one make an elective action to move with-in 2", with the intention of joining a unit, one doesn't have to do this so it's a choice with consequences, or an elective action.

Kommissar Kel wrote:being joined to a unit is determined at the End of the movement phase;

That depends on when you stop reading the paragraph:

In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase... Note that after a character joins a unit, that unit may move no further that Movement phase.

If it was only determined at the end of the phase, there would be no way to join before then, and there would be no need to limit the unit's movement. The rules are written to suggest both interpretations actually - that you join when you move, and that you join at the end of the phase.