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Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing? Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?
Also that DE vehicles can have Flickerfields and Night sheilds without being modeled on the vehicle? Usually causes an argument whenever I play with my brother as to "Whether he has it or not."

Not really.

Relic Blade, Frost Blade, Power Weapon, Regular old sword-seem familiar? (leaving out mastercrafted vs regular etc)

Rosarius is in the same boat as Shadowfield - Most models with one i've fought don't have a specific-look wargear on the model that is a rosarius. I daresay some models may have one sculpted in, but i wouldn't know. Not my army.

Power of the Machine Spirit isn't modelled on the model either. The AI is inside the vehicle, so why not the shield generator? Ask your opponent. That said, with DE assume he has it until proven otherwise, as most DE players will take both.

Eldar holofields don't have a rep for them either, not half the vehicle wargear in the Tau codex.

About half the wargear from the Necron code is the same way. The only really recognisably Wargear items are the staff of light/warscythe, destroyer body and orb.

It's pretty normal in this game for some wargear to not have a sprue piece for it, or to not be sculpted into the model. A fair chunk of the wargear doesn't even tell you what it's supposed to look like.

Because Power of the Machine Spirit is not an upgrade so if people should know what it does but then saying that it's like saying people should know if it's a Djin blade or whether it has a Flickerfield

This is a pretty easy issue to solve tbh, ask him for his list and see what each model has. If you aren't playing with lists then you have nothing to go on.

Most of the time only a few models are going to be highly customisable so you only have to remember a few things. On more common things like vehicles ideally he should have some form of distinctive markings so you can tell the difference but as most of the time all vehicles of the same type have the same rules (and often the same upgrades) again its not a huge issue.

It is common for many xenos armies to have issues with WYSIWYG for upgrades or weapons (regeneration). Most people cant tell a blaster from a shredder. When I play my armies, I usually let people know what squads have what and tell them what the weapon does since 75% of the time they do not know what the weapon does if its not imperial based.

As for vehicles, ask your brother to nominate by placing a die or marking the side of the base with a color or number to tell between the vehicles.

'Because Power of the Machine Spirit is not an upgrade so if people should know what it does but then saying that it's like saying people should know if it's a Djin blade or whether it has a Flickerfield '

Not really, but it does point out that the generator for the powerfield might be inside the vehicle (not visible) as opposed to being bolted onto the outside (visible). I also recommended asking your opponent if you recall.

Best bet is to ask for your opponent's list, and have him point out the vehicle (or model) that has different wargear. If you have a rough time remembering then have him place a coloured dice or similar aboard.

I have a similar issue with my Ork upgrades. I don't want to paint every vehicle red, as i don't always take the red paintjob upgrade. I made a marker that i put on the vehicle that indicates it has RPJ. Ditto Grot riggers, Armour Plates etc.

guyperson5 wrote:Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing? Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?

You think it would be fair to make your brother convert his model every time he needs to make a minor alteration to his army list?

thehod wrote: It is common for many xenos armies to have issues with WYSIWYG for upgrades or weapons (regeneration). Most people cant tell a blaster from a shredder. When I play my armies, I usually let people know what squads have what and tell them what the weapon does since 75% of the time they do not know what the weapon does if its not imperial based.

As for vehicles, ask your brother to nominate by placing a die or marking the side of the base with a color or number to tell between the vehicles.

I just did a quick count from Codex: Eldar and there are 46 upgrades that can't be represented on a model. Most of these are psychic abilities and exarch powers, but quite a few are vehicle or character upgrades.

And oddly enough, Codex Eldar is the ONLY codex with a WYSIWYG rule.

Grakmar wrote:
I just did a quick count from Codex: Eldar and there are 46 upgrades that can't be represented on a model. Most of these are psychic abilities and exarch powers, but quite a few are vehicle or character upgrades.

I wouldnt say can't to all of them, just involves some skill and intuition.

Soup and a roll wrote:

guyperson5 wrote:Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing? Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?

You think it would be fair to make your brother convert his model every time he needs to make a minor alteration to his army list?

Yes. The rest of us do it. My ork army is fully 100% WYSIWYG and if it is an options I sometimes add and remove I make it removable.

guyperson5 wrote:Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing?
Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?
Also that DE vehicles can have Flickerfields and Night sheilds without being modeled on the vehicle?

No, I don't think any of the above is unfair.
What is unfair about it?

Usually causes an argument whenever I play with my brother as to "Whether he has it or not."

How can this cause an argument? You ask him, and he tells you.....what is the problem?
If he has bought a given upgrade for the character, then that character has that upgrade.
If you are in doubt about what upgrades your opponents characters have, you just ask him. Don't you guys go through your army lists with each other before the game?

You might run into trouble at a tournament where it is important to be able to tell upgrades and equipment at a glance due to a time limit, but this is playing against your brother!?!



On top of that, how can your opponent know that conversions he can make that you will recognize as a given upgrade?

Ascalam wrote:
Rosarius is in the same boat as Shadowfield - Most models with one i've fought don't have a specific-look wargear on the model that is a rosarius. I daresay some models may have one sculpted in, but i wouldn't know. Not my army.

sorry to be a little OT, but i thought the Rosarius was modeled onto all the chaplain models? looks a bit like a small crux terminatus IIRC

OT, ive always had the same problems with WYSIWYG melta bombs, i never have enough to model them if i want them
O and having the opponents list on hand is always the best answer, failing that, questions are the key, make sure you know exactly what each squad has as early as possible to make sure there arent any problems later on

nkelsch wrote:Yes. The rest of us do it. My ork army is fully 100% WYSIWYG and if it is an options I sometimes add and remove I make it removable.

For options that have no defined visual basis? Just because some other options do require removable options? Personally I think it would be unfair to make the guy change his model if he doesn't need to.

Can i ask, as i haven't taken my DE for a spin yet fully painted, has there been issues with unmodelled flickerfields on raiders?

In my mind, the point of WYSIWYG is to eliminate confusion. If all of your Raiders have the same upgrades, no really need to model things. "My Flickerfield is that sail right there". If you have some that have it and some that don't then you really need to make it obvious to your opponent which ones have it.

Same with models. If the only Archon in your army has a Djin Blade then the sword he is holding is a Djin Blade. If you have two and they are different then they really need to be different.

You might need to brush up on converting if you need to do some bit swaps.

Homer

'sorry to be a little OT, but i thought the Rosarius was modeled onto all the chaplain models? looks a bit like a small crux terminatus IIRC'

You may well be right about the Chaplains (not my army ) but they aren't the only people who have access to a Rosarius. The Witchhunters codex has them as wargear, for one. I don't think they've ever shown a picture of one in a codex either, so that you could recognise it. I'm sure they're well described in the novels etc, but not all of us read them...

Ascalam wrote:
'sorry to be a little OT, but i thought the Rosarius was modeled onto all the chaplain models? looks a bit like a small crux terminatus IIRC'

You may well be right about the Chaplains (not my army ) but they aren't the only people who have access to a Rosarius. The Witchhunters codex has them as wargear, for one. I don't think they've ever shown a picture of one in a codex either, so that you could recognise it. I'm sure they're well described in the novels etc, but not all of us read them...

very true, i do admit to forgetting about the Witchhunters, my mistake (and anyone else who has access to one lol)
ive read a few of the BL books, but they arent particularly well described in them either. Not sure where i got the idea from tbh, it just seemed to be a common factor on all the Chaplain models i think.

Likely you are right The only refence i've read to one was in an old story compilation, where it is described as a necklace (one would assume a parallel to Catholic rosaries) because it gets ripped of the bad guy right before he gets shot, after he had been ignoring gunfire for a while, and then he gets a second or so of 'oh feth' before he dies.

Imperial fashion sense and accessories is probably an interesting topic to look into though.

Ascalam wrote:
Imperial fashion sense and accessories is probably an interesting topic to look into though.

haha!!! very true!

i think i read something similar, and the cross thingy always semed to be hanging on a chain on the models, thats probably the entire (fairly specious) basis for my thinking (altho the catholic conatation did come into it too).

Grakmar wrote:

thehod wrote: It is common for many xenos armies to have issues with WYSIWYG for upgrades or weapons (regeneration). Most people cant tell a blaster from a shredder. When I play my armies, I usually let people know what squads have what and tell them what the weapon does since 75% of the time they do not know what the weapon does if its not imperial based.

As for vehicles, ask your brother to nominate by placing a die or marking the side of the base with a color or number to tell between the vehicles.

I just did a quick count from Codex: Eldar and there are 46 upgrades that can't be represented on a model. Most of these are psychic abilities and exarch powers, but quite a few are vehicle or character upgrades.

Vehicle upgrades can be obtained by forgeworld ^.^ But i'll de damned if i'm going to buy them...

As for the OP.
For certain weaponry, if there is nothing on the sprue to represent a certain weapoin... put a simple wash over a blade to give it an unnatural sheen, thereby marking it out as different... As for counting that same sword as different weapons depending on the game... you could add pins to different blades, and drill into the Archons hand, meaning you can swap blades when needed. An alternative is to buy very small magnets! I've seen some about 1mm across that could work.

For the Shadow field can be represeted by a simple gem or ring, its a field that can't really be modelled, but the generator could be. Pick a colour that stands out and paint any old piece of jewellery that colour.

Same applies to vehicle upgrades, pinning or magnetising them to remove then when your not using them. Although I'm unsure if those upgrades are present on the sprue... but you could easily make some! I'm sure there will be something from the vehicle box or one of the infantry boxes that you can use as a 'count as' flickerfield, or 'counts as' night shield.

Soup and a roll wrote:

guyperson5 wrote:Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing? Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?

You think it would be fair to make your brother convert his model every time he needs to make a minor alteration to his army list?

That is a good point but since he hardly ever paints his guys he could put a little marking or something? Then just go over it when he changes it? Because it is so frustrating when something is in range but then he just goes "Night Shield"

Its Dark Eldar- just assume it's 6'' less range on your guns automatically. Plan to be within that range if you can

Same applies to Eldar tanks- They are almost always Holofielded.

Ask him to put a counter on it. Even better- get a few spare bases and paint Night Shield and/or Flickerfield on them. Hand them to him as marker tokens to put on the vehicles. I did this with my wife's Dark Eldar to preserve my sanity somewhat.

If he refuses to put markers you supply on his tanks he's being a (fill in blank here) as he hasn't got the excuse of 'i forgot to bring my markers' or similar.

Steelmage99 wrote:

guyperson5 wrote:Hey. Does anybody think it is unfair that Archons can have a Djin blade, combat weapon, power weapon or Husk blade all modeled on the same sword thing?
Or with the Archon a Shadow field without modeling it on the figure?
Also that DE vehicles can have Flickerfields and Night sheilds without being modeled on the vehicle?

No, I don't think any of the above is unfair.
What is unfair about it?

Usually causes an argument whenever I play with my brother as to "Whether he has it or not."

How can this cause an argument? You ask him, and he tells you.....what is the problem?
If he has bought a given upgrade for the character, then that character has that upgrade.
If you are in doubt about what upgrades your opponents characters have, you just ask him. Don't you guys go through your army lists with each other before the game?

You might run into trouble at a tournament where it is important to be able to tell upgrades and equipment at a glance due to a time limit, but this is playing against your brother!?!

On top of that, how can your opponent know that conversions he can make that you will recognize as a given upgrade?

Oh, you don't know how heated it gets at my house!
In the 40k rulebook it states that you must explain exactly who has what at the start of the game
I just want to get on with the killing and don't ask . We don't go through army lists before each battle because it's pretty obvious what my guys have due to WYSIWYG and he hasn't made one (an army list )
Well, if I got half way through a game then chose to announce that my Combat squad was actually a Devestator sqauad armed with Missile launchers and my excuse was that I just didn't have enough Missile launchers to put on the models, do you see my logic?
He/She might go "Whats that thing sticking off the Raider?'" in terms of coverting something on to the vehicles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Homer S wrote:In my mind, the point of WYSIWYG is to eliminate confusion. If all of your Raiders have the same upgrades, no really need to model things. "My Flickerfield is that sail right there". If you have some that have it and some that don't then you really need to make it obvious to your opponent which ones have it.

Same with models. If the only Archon in your army has a Djin Blade then the sword he is holding is a Djin Blade. If you have two and they are different then they really need to be different.

You might need to brush up on converting if you need to do some bit swaps.

Homer

The only thing is one day it might be a Djin blade and the next a Power weapon and so it goes on

As I understand, the limit of alterations you can do to the archon model without a jeweler's saw is choosing the head, the rest is solid. So it's not like you can make it look meaningfully different from the default huskblade without the proper tools, and none of the weapons have an official paint scheme.

As for forcefields, if they're on everything that can take them, knowing that should suffice, while if they're only on one or two, then it should be made clear. There's no way to model them short of clever wiring and bits of some large plastic sphere or sheets of cellophane or something, although that would be an interesting conversion...

@ OP - I'm not sure I understand the problem here.

Are you saying "Every upgrade taken by every character/unit in every army must have that specific upgrade modelled" If so, you're going to find a very small pool of players willing to play you at all.
How would you model a psychic power - or more than one on a single model? What about a necron lord's gaze of flame? Or an archon's combat drugs?

It seems more likely that your real issue is that your brother likes tinkering with his list (nothing wrong with that, we all like to try out new stuff), but that its not clear to you who has what. In this case there is only one answer - go through his list! Make sure he has one written out before the game. If he has two identical models with different wargear make sure that you put a marker next to one/both of them so you know which is which.
If he wants to proxy something (I don't have a spare model with a plasma gun but want one in this squad, so I'll proxy with a flamer) this is fine if you agree, but again it must be clear and your brother needs to be aware that in tourneys this is a no-no and even in pick-up games may be refused.

Ultimately, you just need to take the time before the game - its a 5 min job that will save you a lot of aggravation.

guyperson5 wrote:

Homer S wrote:In my mind, the point of WYSIWYG is to eliminate confusion. If all of your Raiders have the same upgrades, no really need to model things. "My Flickerfield is that sail right there". If you have some that have it and some that don't then you really need to make it obvious to your opponent which ones have it.

Same with models. If the only Archon in your army has a Djin Blade then the sword he is holding is a Djin Blade. If you have two and they are different then they really need to be different.

You might need to brush up on converting if you need to do some bit swaps.

Homer

The only thing is one day it might be a Djin blade and the next a Power weapon and so it goes on

Each game is a new thing: what you call it day to day is not important. It is during the game there should be no confusion. So if you have one Archon, it can be what you paid for in your army list. If there are two and they are different, they need to be different. Just let your opponent know today he has a Djin Blade. When you play again and want it to be something different, just say so.

If I have accidentally forgotten to magnetize my Shuriken Catapults on all my skimmers and I've paid for the Cannon upgrade, I would just let my opponent know before the game starts that all of my Skimmers have Cannons. Short of a tournament, games should be friendly enough that this is OK.

Homer

guyperson5 wrote: Oh, you don't know how heated it gets at my house!

Don't take this the wrong way but if that's the way you both play I can see why it gets heated!

guyperson5 wrote:In the 40k rulebook it states that you must explain exactly who has what at the start of the game
I just want to get on with the killing and don't ask

Then shame on you!
Far easier to follow the rules and explain to your opponent what's what. In my games before we start the game, we go over terrain and if we don't actually exchange lists we at least point out what units have what to make sure there will be no confusion later. This entire process takes less than 5 minutes.

guyperson5 wrote:We don't go through army lists before each battle because it's pretty obvious what my guys have due to WYSIWYG and he hasn't made one (an army list )

If he hasn't made an army list, how do either of you know for sure what his point total is? He could be off by a hundred points and neither of you would know.

guyperson5 wrote:Well, if I got half way through a game then chose to announce that my Combat squad was actually a Devestator sqauad armed with Missile launchers and my excuse was that I just didn't have enough Missile launchers to put on the models, do you see my logic?

I wouldn't let you do that halfway through the game. But if, at the start, you told me that your combat squad was proxying for a dev squad with missile launchers, I would make a note of it and say ok.

WSYISWYG is not obvious to everyone. I for one am not adept at knowing what every piece of wargear in the 40k universe should look like for each race.

WYSIWYG should be used in tandem with a list so you can then say to an opponent "I am using this piece of wargear, which is represented by this piece on the model"

WYSIWYG is there to stop people from saying "I am using this blade of doom, even though my model is blatantly armed with a squeaky hammer"

If in doubt consult the army list. You are not at a tournament. You do not need to be getting into arguments about a proxy.

Simply saying your models a WYSIWYG makes no sense without a list stating who has what, how much it costs and whether it takes you over the points limit.

Phayse wrote:
WYSIWYG should be used in tandem with a list so you can then say to an opponent "I am using this piece of wargear, which is represented by this piece on the model"

Yeah 100% "so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game." Pg 47

Phayse wrote:
WYSIWYG is there to stop people from saying "I am using this blade of doom, even though my model is blatantly armed with a squeaky hammer"

This is horribly inaccurate.
"The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing."
"a player might decide that for his next game a model’s power sword will simply count as a close combat weapon, but he will also equip the model with melta bombs." Pg 47

So, differently coloured pieces of blu-tak and an index is more than sufficient. So is deeming a 'squeaky hammer' a 'blade of doom', hell a PS can pretend to be a melta-bomb