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Under Inquisitor Coteaz it says "Henchmen warbands are troops choices in an army with Coteaz and are not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army" Under Henchmen Warband it says "This unit does not use a force organization slot" Does Corteaz by making it a troops choice make it take a slot so they are limited to 6 or can you take as many as you want assuming you take 2 grey knights squads to fill the troop slots? Seems to be it should since infinite henchmen makes for some stupid armies like 20 vehicles and many many squads of henchmen.

I believe it is infinite, just like Chaos Marine lesser daemons. They are a troop choice that does not take up a FOC slot, hence you still need to take 2 compulsory normal (grey knight) troop units, but can then take as many hench units as you want.

jy2 wrote:I believe it is infinite, just like Chaos Marine lesser daemons. They are a troop choice that does not take up a FOC slot, hence you still need to take 2 compulsory normal (grey knight) troop units, but can then take as many hench units as you want.

Infinite.

However, you do not in fact need to take 2 compulsory GK units. The reason for this is that the FOC rules state that for each box you may "Make one choice". Dark boxes, the mandatory units, are "compulsory selections".

As you can see, as long as you are selecting a unit, it counts for compulsory. The fact that this unit does not "use up" a slot in the process of being selected does not invalidate the fact that you have in fact selected it.

Not infinite.

For each inquisitor you may include a unit. This unit (i.e. the one purchased for the inquisitor) does not take up a force org slot. Because it's in the same paragraph. If it was an entirely separate statement, then it would still apply with Coteaz's rule.

Coteaz makes them troops and removes the link to inquisitors.

Seems clear to me.

*edit* I'm basing this off the "leaked" version - As yakface says below, it has changed wording, so I'll withdraw this comment until such time as I've read the actual wording.

Seems like this is going to be a topic argued about for a long time

Infinite, but you still need to take two choices (to counter Ph4rs assertion)

All it removes is the link to requiring an inquisitor and the elite requiremetn. It does not remove the "does not take up a choice" language.

Are you guys basing your arguments off the final wording in the codex?

It did change from the leaked version, so if you're making a rules call based off of the leaked version, you should be specifying as much.

Basing it off the final version.

ph34r wrote:

jy2 wrote:I believe it is infinite, just like Chaos Marine lesser daemons. They are a troop choice that does not take up a FOC slot, hence you still need to take 2 compulsory normal (grey knight) troop units, but can then take as many hench units as you want.

Infinite.

However, you do not in fact need to take 2 compulsory GK units. The reason for this is that the FOC rules state that for each box you may "Make one choice". Dark boxes, the mandatory units, are "compulsory selections".

As you can see, as long as you are selecting a unit, it counts for compulsory. The fact that this unit does not "use up" a slot in the process of being selected does not invalidate the fact that you have in fact selected it.

Not being sarcastic but does this mean you could have an entirely demon CSM force? (Princes and lessers?)

ChocolateGork wrote:

ph34r wrote:

jy2 wrote:I believe it is infinite, just like Chaos Marine lesser daemons. They are a troop choice that does not take up a FOC slot, hence you still need to take 2 compulsory normal (grey knight) troop units, but can then take as many hench units as you want.

Infinite.

However, you do not in fact need to take 2 compulsory GK units. The reason for this is that the FOC rules state that for each box you may "Make one choice". Dark boxes, the mandatory units, are "compulsory selections".

As you can see, as long as you are selecting a unit, it counts for compulsory. The fact that this unit does not "use up" a slot in the process of being selected does not invalidate the fact that you have in fact selected it.

Not being sarcastic but does this mean you could have an entirely demon CSM force? (Princes and lessers?)

You could, but it wouldn't be playable, given the way they have to come onto the table.

Exact Wordings:

Pre-release:
Lord of Formosa: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices an an army that includes Inquisitor Troquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot.

Release Codex:
Lord of Formosa: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices an an army that includes Inquisitor Troquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot.

Summary: There is no wording change.

However, I believe that Coteaz warbands DO use up a troops choice. The wording is ambiguous, but the word 'this' in 'this unit does not use up a force organisation slot' is a reference to a unit taken with an inquisitor, and detailed in the previous sentence.

Either way, it'll get FAQed in favour of them using troops choices, and I hope no-one is dumb enough to drop a heap of cash on an army based on an ambiguous wording.

Slinky wrote:Not infinite.

For each inquisitor you may include a unit. This unit (i.e. the one purchased for the inquisitor) does not take up a force org slot. Because it's in the same paragraph. If it was an entirely separate statement, then it would still apply with Coteaz's rule.

Coteaz makes them troops and removes the link to inquisitors.

Seems clear to me.

*edit* I'm basing this off the "leaked" version - As yakface says below, it has changed wording, so I'll withdraw this comment until such time as I've read the actual wording.

You seem to think that "This unit" applies to only a unit taken with an inquisitor. This is in fact the case, as long as you have only 1 inquisitor. However, "this unit" applies to each particular Henchmen unit.

Wording has not changed in final codex.

It's 100% ambiguous.

There's no evidence within the wording of the rules to imply either "infinite" or "2-6" as the actual rule. It is technically correct to read it as either meaning.

Only the people you play with, or a TO, can help you rule on this. Even that will be a house rule until GW clears it up.

This is a "how would you play" not a "what's the rule" since the rule cannot be determined.

Nos; Selecting a Choice is selecting a Choice; the Compulsory Boxes do not need to be filled but selections from those boxes need to be taken.

Take a look at Page 87 of the BRB; "One box in the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list. Dark boxes are compulsory selections. As you can see, normally you will have to take at least one HQ selection and two troops selections."

I am going to end the Quote their because the rest still does not say anything about requiring the selections to fill the Boxes or slots; only that selections of those types are taken.

You have certainly taken at least 2 Troops selections, and 1 HQ when you take Coteaz and 2(or more) henchmen units.

Yet we've been through this argument before, and no agreement was reached. Hence ALL I did was give the alternative view with no intention to rehash the hideously long arguments again.

I mistook your post as "Word of Law"; this is why whenever contentious views are needed to be voiced in a thread i usually try to indicate it as such

I was countering an assertion, as the parenthetical statement said I thought that made it clear it was, in itself, an assertion*

*which it was - I offered no argument....

From what I can ascertain, it's unclear. Until an FAQ is released (I suspect this issue will be on it, along with DCCW/Dreadknight thing), talk to your TO, establish a precedent with your friends, and/or discuss with your opponent. Not RAW, but it is the best solution in this case IMHO.

My personal opinion on RAW: Infinite squads, but does not fill compulsory requirements. Any precedent for non-FOC units filling compulsory slots comes from the BT Emperor's Champion who, in the BT FAQ, may be a compulsory HQ although he does not take up a slot. However, since the EC is already a compulsory choice (for other reasons, under certain circumstances) I do not believe there is enough situational similarity to make a broad generalization about how to treat non-FOC units with regard to compulsory choices.

There's no argument that they wouldn't fill compulsory requirements. Absolutely none whatsoever. Those who claim that Henchmen don't satisfy the mandatory requirements simply have-not-read-the-rules. Whether they take a slot or not, whether they're limited to six units or not doesn't even have anything to do with the fulfillment of mandatory requirements. A unit that is troops will count towards the mandatory requirements no matter what unless specifically otherwise noted (like for many core units in Warhammer Fantasy).

If anyone's stupid enough to actually buy something like 99 multimelta servitors + 150 henchmen or 27 razorbacks, then they should probably be given the benefit of doubt and be allowed to win a game or two before it get's FAQ'ed away by GW.

Dronze wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

ph34r wrote:

jy2 wrote:I believe it is infinite, just like Chaos Marine lesser daemons. They are a troop choice that does not take up a FOC slot, hence you still need to take 2 compulsory normal (grey knight) troop units, but can then take as many hench units as you want.

Infinite.

However, you do not in fact need to take 2 compulsory GK units. The reason for this is that the FOC rules state that for each box you may "Make one choice". Dark boxes, the mandatory units, are "compulsory selections".

As you can see, as long as you are selecting a unit, it counts for compulsory. The fact that this unit does not "use up" a slot in the process of being selected does not invalidate the fact that you have in fact selected it.

Not being sarcastic but does this mean you could have an entirely demon CSM force? (Princes and lessers?)

You could, but it wouldn't be playable, given the way they have to come onto the table.

The summoned demons have a phrase to the effect of "You can take as many as you want but they don't count towards your minimum amount of Troops choices" If GK henchmen units didn't count towards the minimums somehow they would be the only unit in the game that didn't count towards minimums but also didn't have rules specifically stating that they don't take count towards minimums.

There is nothing in the BRB somehow outlining the difference between a troop slot that has been 'filled' vs a troops selection that has been 'taken' - there's no platform from which to make the leap that the henchman squads do not satisfy minimum requirements.

How about if we apply this rule to an Army list?

Disregarding the total points would this satisfy the minimum FOC?

HQ
1x Coteaz

Troops
10x Crusaders
10x Death Cult Assassins

tech66 wrote:How about if we apply this rule to an Army list?

Disregarding the total points would this satisfy the minimum FOC?

HQ
1x Coteaz

Troops
10x Crusaders
10x Death Cult Assassins

I'm curious why do you ask something that's already been answered in this thread more than once. Yes of course that would satisfy the minimum FOC.

I'm curious why do you ask something that's already been answered in this thread more than once. Yes of course that would satisfy the minimum FOC.

Thank you, I was just looking for a little clarity by putting into context.

GCMandrake wrote:Exact Wordings:

Pre-release:
Lord of Formosa: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices an an army that includes Inquisitor Troquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot.

Release Codex:
Lord of Formosa: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices an an army that includes Inquisitor Troquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot.

Summary: There is no wording change.

However, I believe that Coteaz warbands DO use up a troops choice. The wording is ambiguous, but the word 'this' in 'this unit does not use up a force organisation slot' is a reference to a unit taken with an inquisitor, and detailed in the previous sentence.

Either way, it'll get FAQed in favour of them using troops choices, and I hope no-one is dumb enough to drop a heap of cash on an army based on an ambiguous wording.

Thanks for posting the wording.

I agree. There are two different ways to take henchman warbands, detailed in two different paragraphs/special rules.

If you take them as your single allowable warband per Inquisitor, they don't take up a Force Org slot.

If you take Coteaz, they become Troops (instead of not taking a slot) and are no longer capped at the number of Inquisitors in the army. So you could have the usual 2-6.

I think there's a little ambiguity, but a great deal more wishful thinking, in the idea of infinite warbands.

I also think this is one of those cases where it doesn't really matter...unless GW comes out and actually FAQs it to allow infinite henchmen units everyone is going to fall behind the absurdity clause and disallow it simply because there is enough ambiguity to do so.

So I have hard time imagining a situation where even if GW doesn't get onboard and put out a FAQ on the question (in other words, it remains 'unanswered' by GW) that tournament organizers would allow such an army and therefore the 'common interpretation' will simply be that it isn't allowed.

Wouldn't Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands normaly be considered elites/an elite unit (for purposes like counting as scoring) hence the qualifier of 'does not take up a Foc' and under Lord of Formosa they count as a troops choice?... Personally I feel the issue if worded as above if quite clear.

Lord of Formosa is more specific than Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, thus one considers his text for an army containing him - making them a troop choice/scoring.

i agree with this mannahnin. However, if they then count as troops and i take another Inquisitor HQ can i take an elites warband as well as coteaz and my troop warbands?

No, as you would still be running an army with the inquisitor and as such your Henchmen would count as a troops selection.

I read it as the following:

1) Normally, you require an inquisitor for each henchmen, but Coteaz says you can instead take them as troops.

2) Troops are listed in the Force Organization Chart as 2-6 per army.

3) Nowhere in Coteaz's rules does it state that they do not take up a slot in the FOC. It says that for henchmen, but that changes when they became Troops.

Either way, you definitely can't have it both ways (over six, but they still count for your minimum two troops).