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So I'm close to having my 500pt list built up and I'm thinking about how I'll expand. The original list was just the RP, 2 GH (with razors) squads and the Scouts. I need help filling out the missing points and changing anything in it that's odd. I wasn't sure what to give to the blood claws and the sky claws. I intend to put the blood claws in a LR Crusader to bring it to 1250 and then I'm not sure what to do to bring it to 1500. I do have a drop pod sitting around I was considering putting termies or a dread in. Could I manage to fit a dread in a drop pod and a predator into 250 pts? Anyway, first things first here's the 1000pt list that needs work:

Rune Priest
-CoTS
-Living Lightning and not sure on the second (probably JotWW)

5 Wolf Scouts
-Plasma Pistol
-Meltagun

5 Grey Hunters
-Meltagun
-MotW
-Wolf Standard
-Razorback
--TL-Heavy Bolter

5 Grey Hunters
-Meltagun
-MotW
-Wolf Standard
-Razorback
--TL-Heavy Bolter

15 Blood Claws & Wolf Priest
-Power Fist
-2 Flamers

5 Skyclaws
-Power Fist

Total = 965


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Really? No one?

*shameless bump*


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Please? I really need help. I got help from the GW manager but I want a second opinion.

I don't want to feel like I'm spamming but I really need help. I don't want to assemble models and realize I did something that sucks and waste money, especially when I already have to get an extra flamer or 2.

Yeah sorry bout that, the reality of these forums is that lists get swallowed pretty quickly because during the week a lot of people are posting. I never even saw this thread or I'd have commented.

There are a few things I'd like to point out about your list design that I think you need to watch out for. Primarily, the fact that you have a large pack of footslogging Blood Claws that likely will never make it into combat, and a small pack of Skyclaws that wont survive in combat even if they make it there. Blood Claws are the same price as Grey Hunters per model, but they have less wargear, a worse statline and access to fewer goodies, all in exchange for an extra attack on the charge and a silly rule that makes their ranged weapons useless if they don't have an attached character. The simple fact is that Grey Hunters are just better.

This list seems to be trying to go in two directions at once, with a couple small units in Razorbacks, which should be providing ranged support, but you also have a large melee unit and melee upgrades on your small packs, which have no business getting into combat. This is a common mistake with newer Space Wolf players. The first thing you must realize about Space Wolves is that they are NOT Close Combat specialists. They are CLOSE RANGED specialists, meaning they have excellent firepower at around the 12" range, and can hold their own in melee. The beauty is that the Counter Attack rule means they are just as strong on defense as they are on offense, so you can use both their ranged firepower to your advantage, then accept an assault from your opponent and generally fight them off. In order to do this though, you need to have mobility and your Grey Hunters need to be taken in large packs with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, or they just won't have the numbers to withstand an opponents assault.

This is certainly not the only way to run Space Wolves. You can play the ranged game 100% and ignore melee all together with a Razorspam list, or you can go for 100% melee with a horde of Thunderwolves, but balanced lists usually use some combination of the above.

At 1,000 points, I prefer to use a "Rhino Rush" style, and the list I use generally looks like this:

Rune Priest (Chooser, Meltabombs, Living Lightning, Tempest's Wrath) - 115
3 Wolf Guard (3 Power Fists, 3 Combi-Meltas) - 129
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
9 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 185
9 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 185
6 Long Fangs (5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 215
Total 999

The nice thing about this list is that buying the models gives you a good solid core of models to work with when expanding to larger point totals. I generally rush forward with two of the Grey Hunter packs and keep the other a little ways back so the Rune Priest can fire off Living Lightning, and they help guard the backfield and contest objectives. Tempest's Wrath is there to defend against Blood Angels DOA lists, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any other skimmer/jump infantry heavy lists.

Another option looks like this:

Rune Priest (Chooser, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane) - 110
Rune Priest (Murderous Hurricane,Tempest's Wrath) - 100
3 Wolf Guard (2 Power Fists, 2 Combi-Meltas, 1x Combi-FLamer) - 109
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
5 Grey Hunters (Flamer, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 150
5 Long Fangs (4 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 190
Total 999

It trades a few bodies for some extra ranged support and another Rune Priest. In this list, the two larger packs are your front line using Murderous Hurricane to slow down advancing enemies. You can disembark the Grey Hunters and leave the Rune Priests in the Rhinos, and if you only moved 6" you can double-tap one target with the Grey Hunters and slow down up to two others with Murderous Hurricane, or you can disembark everything and just alpha strike one or two targets.

Both lists are perfectly viable, both are strong and both use a similar model base.

You are of course free to use any of this advice or none of it if it's not the style you are interested in, but I would definitely recommend you stay away from footslogging Blood Claws whatever you do. You CAN use Skyclaws (they are considered pretty terrible on a competitive scale but there are lists that can utilize them) but you will need to use a different configuration and max out the unit with an attached Wolf Priest.

Hope that helps!

The 5-man grey hunter squad I made was basically what was suggested to me, loadout-wise, in a previous thread when I was making the 500pt version. Is it stupid to shove 15 blood claws in a land raider with a wolf priest? The land raider was how I was going to bump the army to 1250. The issue I keep having with the long fangs is that I would need a lot more missile launchers and buying bits sucks. I guess it would help if I add a list of what I've bought and what I have built.

Bought:
Rune Priest
Wolf Priest
SW Battleforce
Assault Squad
Razorback

Built:
Rune Priest
2 x 5-man Grey Hunters (meltagun, wolf standard, guy I consider as MotW)
5 Scouts
Rhino part of the Razorback kit

On the list to get was a Tactical Marine box to make the blood claws with the SW sprues of the other SW Pack from the battleforce and the land raider crusader to put them in.

You CAN run a Crusader with a bunch of Blood Claws and a Wolf Priest, but the reality is that they are still outclassed by Grey Hunters, especially if you add a character like Arjac or Ragnar (don't take Arjac below 1,500 and don't take Ragnar below 1,850). Thunderwolves also make for a much better unit than Blood Claws when it comes to melee.

To be completely honest, it's just an unfortunate fact that you will very rarely ever use Blood Claws unless you are running a themed list, or don't care that there are several more cost effective and reliable options and you just want to run them. Regardless, if you MUST use them, you should never EVER use them on foot. ALWAYS take the Land Raider, and if you cannot fit them in the list with it, just don't take them. Without the Land Raider, you have wasted 225 points.

As for your Grey Hunters, I'm of the opinion that a pack below 8 models strong has no business being in combat unless they are Assault Terminators (and not Space Wolf Terminators.....those are terrible for the cost). Low numbers and Powered Armor with no Invulnerable Save means your opponent can quickly overwhelm them, and if they are hit by a dedicated melee unit chances are you will lose them before they get to attack. That's not to say that you shouldn't take small packs.....it just means that they should avoid combat at all costs, and should never be given combat upgrades like a Wolf Standard and Mark of the Wulfen because they are a waste of points on such a tiny pack. If you want to use those upgrades, you should take 9 Grey Hunters, attach a Wolf Guard with a Power Fist and Combi-Melta, and stick them in a Rhino. They make a perfect close quarters unit, able to move 12", disembark 2" plus the width of their base, and fire 12" for a total threat range of almost 27", and an excellent chance to hold the line if the enemy assaults them and isn't packing a load of Power Weapons.

Of course this is just my opinion. Other people on these forums believe that any list that's NOT using and MSU configuration is terrible, and their opinion is worth as much consideration as mine.......even if I think it's a load of crap......but the point is that you should listen to suggestions, then playtest them and form your own opinions based on your style of play. There are nearly as many different styles of play as there are players, so finding one that works for you is never as simple as getting a list online and running with it. Also, it's never a good idea to assume that all unit types are viable at all points levels. At 500 points, small packs with melee equipment are a LOT more viable than they are at 1,000+

Hope that helps!

Well I guess for now I should test my 500pt squad. Thunderwolves are terrible advice for beginners since they're not easily available, I don't want to make my own since the biggest conversion I've done is putting a metal melta on my grey hunter, and I'm trying to avoid wasting money since I don't make much.

I'm basically trying to find a cost effective way to build up my army. I don't need it to be competitive but I obviously don't want it to be useless.

Actually Thunderwolves are a lot less difficult to procure than you might thing. I'm not recommending that you jump right in and buy them, but when you are ready there are three companies out there that produce affordable Thunderwolf models, none of which require any conversion to build.

From worst to best they are:

Mr. Dandy - Personally I think their Thunderwolves are horrible, but their rider legs are very good. I used them myself.
Mythicast - These ones are alright. They are definitely the easiest because they have the legs sculpted on the model and require no conversion. Not the greatest quality sculpt though.
Masquerade Miniatures - These are the ones I purchased. They are the most expensive of the bunch, but they are also the best quality when it comes to sculpting. The Mr. Dandy Rider Legs also fit perfectly on these models, meaning you need almost no converting skill to build them; just buy the set of 5 and a set of 5 Rider Legs from Mr. Dandy, and all you need are the torso pieces from a standard Space Wolves kit. They are also the only ones of the bunch cast in white metal, and thus are much more durable than the resin wolves from the other companies.

Just to clarify, my comment regarding Thunderwolves was intended more to point out that Blood Claws are pretty low on the totem pole when it comes to a melee unit, and that I would almost never run them. If you want a strong melee unit, and don't want to use Thunderwolves, there are two ways you can go. The least expensive is 10 Grey Hunters with a Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen and a Power Weapon with Arjac Rockfist, mounted in a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader. The more expensive option is the same 10 Grey Hunters with an attached Wolf Guard w/ Power Fist and Combi-Melta, and Ragnar Blackmane, also in a Land Raider Redeemer or Crusader. Either option is a solid melee threat, but both can also provide ranged support, and neither is particularly difficult to procure.

The one thing to remember is that Land Raiders are always a big target, and if a Land Raider is carrying a solid melee hammer it will draw a lot of fire unless you take additional high armor threats that your opponent cannot ignore, like Vindicators, Auto-Las Predators, and Dreadnoughts. If you decide to go the Land Raider + Melee unit route, you should also invest in some of those units or you risk losing the Land Raider very early.

Some good advice here. I haven't been playing long but I agree with pretty much everything said here.
Whether you want to run small units or full packs of Grey hunters, get a few more razorbacks (only slightly more than the rhino kit and jsut swap as needed) They're fairly cheap one ebay and will allow you to get all your troops where they need to be.
To get some melta guns, GW sells a pack of 6 or 8 at a fairly cheap price.
I like my long fangs, but predators or a vindicator can provide heavy support and distract from the land raider as has been said.
See if you can't proxy stuff for a few games so you can start to see how you play and what direction you want to take your army before buying a ton more.

Portaljacker wrote:The issue I keep having with the long fangs is that I would need a lot more missile launchers and buying bits sucks.

Hunter Killer Missile bits = DIY ML Long Fangs

Deuce11 wrote:

Portaljacker wrote:The issue I keep having with the long fangs is that I would need a lot more missile launchers and buying bits sucks.

Hunter Killer Missile bits = DIY ML Long Fangs

Also, you can buy Missile Launchers in bulk from www.thewarstore.com for a somewhat reasonable price.

stewy37 wrote:predators or a vindicator can provide heavy support and distract from the land raider as has been said.

vindicators "distract" while Long Fangs destroy. SW predators fail. Why do they fail? Because their only advantage over LFs is the ability to redeploy. This can be acomplished by spending 35pts on a ride for the LFs.

LFs are essentially the only heavy choice to consider. If you play too aggressive for LFs or find they keep getting outflanked, you can usually add something from the troop or elite section to better compliment the rest of the build, neither a vindi or a pred will ever prove better than more TWC or mobile GH or out-flanking Scouts.

@Aldarionn I'll be mostly taking your advice. Not sure which one of your lists I like better, but no matter what it seems I'm getting 2 more razorback boxes, a tactical marine box and a devastator box. Then the bitz. I'm also trying to keep to fitting in the GW box, which is hard I've noticed, but both your lists would fit in there nicely and still have the possible space for the expansion to 1250 or even 1500 depending on what I do for that part of my list.

Does anyone else have advice? I want to hear from as many people as possible.

Also, how should I go about expanding to 1250&1500? Should I see how the army plays and go from there?

I would echo almost everything Aldarionn said. The main place I differ is that I think Lascannons are worth a look on LFs. Without them, any sort of list with terminators will be VERY hard to kill (based on my experience). This means a lot of the DA and GK builds will be very rough on you. Also, it is impossible to get a penetrating hit on AV 14 with a ML. My list has 3 MLs and 2 LCs. Most people disagree with me because of the points difference, but I think it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Also, I like most of Mr Dandy's wolves. If you don't like his sci-fi ones, he also has some generic looking ones. Either way, they are pretty cheap ($90 for 5).

As far as Blood Claws go, pretty much the only way I would take them is in a LRC with a wolf priest.

spyguyyoda wrote:I would echo almost everything Aldarionn said. The main place I differ is that I think Lascannons are worth a look on LFs. Without them, any sort of list with terminators will be VERY hard to kill (based on my experience). This means a lot of the DA and GK builds will be very rough on you. Also, it is impossible to get a penetrating hit on AV 14 with a ML. My list has 3 MLs and 2 LCs. Most people disagree with me because of the points difference, but I think it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Also, I like most of Mr Dandy's wolves. If you don't like his sci-fi ones, he also has some generic looking ones. Either way, they are pretty cheap ($90 for 5).

As far as Blood Claws go, pretty much the only way I would take them is in a LRC with a wolf priest.

That was the build for LF I was thinking of. Since you only have the one Lascannon from the Razor it would make sense (the razor is for redeployment I assume?).

I think the wolves will come eventually, maybe make a themed army with Canis and a bunch of wolves.

What should be on the blood claws in that blob if I ever did it? The 2 flamers was what I was suggested since they're free + the power fist.

Flamers and a PF sound good. I wouldn't try and put anything tank popping on them, because if they bust a tank they have nothing to assault.

I just realized today that BCs don't use bolters so my plan of using the tac marine box is down the drain.