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I was playing a couple games of 40k earlier with my Tyranids, and I noticed that in both games my Hive Tyrant would kick some serious ass... and then get killed for some infuriating reasons. Here's a few issues I have with the Tyrant that need to be addressed (and make it more worth its points):

-Tyrants should have the Eternal Warrior rule. Or, even better, they should go back to 4th Ed synapse rules, where everyone in synapse range is immune to instant death. I mention this because a D weapon scattered onto my Tyrant and vapourized it, which is (in my opinion) just plain dumb.
-Tyrants need an invulnerable save. Even just a 5+ would make it much more survivable versus AP3/2/1 fire, because right now I'm relying on a Venomthrope to keep it alive from the big guns. Of course, once the Venomthrope dies, the cover saves go bye-bye.

These were the 2 biggest issues that I could think of, but I'm sure more experienced Dakkaites will have more to add.

This is stupid for several reasons.

First of all, if there was a Strength D weapon, you were playing an Apoc game. You don't calibrate codex units so they survive better in Apoc.

Tyranids should NOT have Eternal Warrior. Your HT is already immune to most if not all weapons from range by instant death due to its high toughness. Force weapons are one of the main counters to Tyranids, and that should not change. That would be entirely unfair to non-Nid players.

Tyranids should NOT have an invuln save. You are SUPPOSED to be relying on Venomthropes for that cover, that's the whole point of that unit, and it's pretty darn cheap for what it does. That is the point of that unit.

Bottom line, this is another hilariously dumb Proposed Rules post where some guy is QQing about a perfectly fine unit because it's not an instant win button. AP2 and 3 fire is SUPPOSED to hurt your stuff. Force weapons are SUPPOSED to splat you. Deal with it.

While I agree with your technical points, I could wish you would present them in a less antagonistic manner.

People usually switch off when you are rude to them.

Please review the user posting guidelines.

Eternal warrior would be nice protection for it against all of the force weapons coming up....

Yeah for sure. Not even just for Tyrants, I'd prefer if all monstrous creatures had eternal warrior. And I don't think a 5+ invulnerable save is that much to ask for, it's not going to break the game by any means. Or, it could be part of the armoured shell upgrade, which is pretty steep at 40pts imho.

They are just over-costed.

Make em cheaper, make their upgrades cheaper, and you've got viable unit without messing around with weird made up rules that could create more potential balance issues.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah for sure. Not even just for Tyrants, I'd prefer if all monstrous creatures had eternal warrior.

Then why would we ever want to take force weapons in the first place?

And I don't think a 5+ invulnerable save is that much to ask for, it's not going to break the game by any means. Or, it could be part of the armoured shell upgrade, which is pretty steep at 40pts imho.

Once again, Venomthrope.

Of all the units in the Tyranid codex that need fixing, the Hive Tyrant is not one of them. The problems you're bringing up are ones that come from poor tactics and strategy, not problems with the unit itself.

The reason GW got rid of Eternal Warrior via Synapse in the first place is because too many people where complaining about it being over-powered. Imagine 8 multi-wound monsters in 1 army and none of them can be insta-gibbed. The tyrant doesn't need EW (though they should have gave it to the Swarmlord), though it could use a slight reduction in its points-cost.

5++ invulns are totally plausible for such a psychic creature. I like that idea. Give them a weaker version of Warp Field (maybe Warp Shield? How about Warp Halo....lol) and then keep their cost the same. I have no problems with that.

Yeah, I can live without eternal warrior cuz at least a 5++ gives me a chance of possibly surviving.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, I can live without eternal warrior cuz at least a 5++ gives me a chance of possibly surviving.

How does Toughness 6 and 4 wounds give you no chance of surviving?

I'd trade that for my 4+ invulnerable and 3 toughness every time.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, I can live without eternal warrior cuz at least a 5++ gives me a chance of possibly surviving.

How does Toughness 6 and 4 wounds give you no chance of surviving?

I'd trade that for my 4+ invulnerable and 3 toughness every time.

*Looks at the upcoming army with str 5 force weapons on every troop* you're kidding right?

This also makes warriors even more useless than they were in the STR 8 shooting rich 5e environment


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fafnir wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah for sure. Not even just for Tyrants, I'd prefer if all monstrous creatures had eternal warrior.

Then why would we ever want to take force weapons in the first place?

I find force weapons to be one of those things that 40k could lose and be a better game. Before GK Tyranid warriors were a hard sell due to the amount of Str 8 shooting around, with the release of GK, let me counter with 'Then why would we ever want to take Multi-wound models in the first place?'

And I don't think a 5+ invulnerable save is that much to ask for, it's not going to break the game by any means. Or, it could be part of the armoured shell upgrade, which is pretty steep at 40pts imho.

Once again, Venomthrope.

Of all the units in the Tyranid codex that need fixing, the Hive Tyrant is not one of them. The problems you're bringing up are ones that come from poor tactics and strategy, not problems with the unit itself.

For what Hive Tyrants, and all TMC for that matter, costs, they are ridiculously vulnerable to some pretty eye-rolling abilities on significantly cheaper models.

Kroot Loops wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, I can live without eternal warrior cuz at least a 5++ gives me a chance of possibly surviving.

How does Toughness 6 and 4 wounds give you no chance of surviving?

I'd trade that for my 4+ invulnerable and 3 toughness every time.

*Looks at the upcoming army with str 5 force weapons on every troop* you're kidding right?

This also makes warriors even more useless than they were in the STR 8 shooting rich 5e environment


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fafnir wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah for sure. Not even just for Tyrants, I'd prefer if all monstrous creatures had eternal warrior.

Then why would we ever want to take force weapons in the first place?

I find force weapons to be one of those things that 40k could lose and be a better game. Before GK Tyranid warriors were a hard sell due to the amount of Str 8 shooting around, with the release of GK, let me counter with 'Then why would we ever want to take Multi-wound models in the first place?'

I suppose he has a point, but I see them more for killing multi-wound characters... and even then, most of those characters probably have an Invul save to protect themselves...

Kroot Loops wrote:

And I don't think a 5+ invulnerable save is that much to ask for, it's not going to break the game by any means. Or, it could be part of the armoured shell upgrade, which is pretty steep at 40pts imho.

Once again, Venomthrope.

Of all the units in the Tyranid codex that need fixing, the Hive Tyrant is not one of them. The problems you're bringing up are ones that come from poor tactics and strategy, not problems with the unit itself.

For what Hive Tyrants, and all TMC for that matter, costs, they are ridiculously vulnerable to some pretty eye-rolling abilities on significantly cheaper models.

Not very many people take Venomthropes from what I understand as well, I really like them (I stick 'em near my Tyrant and Guants) but I need some Hive Guard... and I know a lot of people will completely forgo them just so they can spam Hive Guard. There goes your Tyrant's cover save...

I recall in 2E, there was a Null Zone biomorph. It gave a 4++ against psychic attacks. Which basically amounted to: force weapons, wraith/distortion cannon, and Vortex Grenades.

I think there's a case for at the very least an Apoc formation, if not an Apoc-only Biomorph, to give some resilience against these attacks and D weapons. Tyranids do have something of a disadvantage in Apoc, since whereas half of vehicles hit by a D weapon survive, all TMC's hit by one are removed from play. On top of that, a lot of IC's have invulnerables, giving them a D-survivability better than TMC's (which in turn with big bases are more easily hit).

Kroot Loops wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
How does Toughness 6 and 4 wounds give you no chance of surviving?

*Looks at the upcoming army with str 5 force weapons on every troop* you're kidding right?

This also makes warriors even more useless than they were in the STR 8 shooting rich 5e environment

Wow, this is a new low for internet stupidity. You're declaring Hive Tyrants instantly murdered by all armies because one army is full of force weapons.

Your math teachers have failed you.

One thing to note regarding Grey Knight force weapons - they can only ever ID 1 model per knight. Thus if a 5-man grey knight strike squad charges a 9-man tyranid warrior unit, even though they're putting out 11 attacks on the charge, they can only ID 5 warriors....taking their psychic tests on 3D6 no less!

Also, if they want to use their force weapons, they cannot use Hammerhand, meaning they're only S4 against TMC's. Then they need to wound on 6's and take the test on 3D6 against the tyrant.

No, it's not so easy to force weapon a tyrant to death....at least not without a Nemesis Daemonhammer.

Also, now's a good time to consider lash whips on your warriors and tyrant.

Yeah, I run lash whips + bonesword + scything talons and hive commander to maximize my hit efficiency... hopefully I can bring a few of them down before they can strike back.

Against Grey Knights? No. Every unit has Psyk-Out Grenades. Psykers (like the Hive Tyrant, for example) will be striking at I1.

I think you can give them an invulnerable save somehow (or maybe that's old rules.)

Psyk-out grenades only work if they get the charge off. If the tyrant charges, it will be striking at regular initiative (unless it went through difficult terrain).

Considering that every single Grey Knight has grenades, and that their librarians have a psychic power to make assaulting units go through difficult terrain, and that they have more mobility options than the nids (feels weird, having more transport options than someone as Grey Knights), it'll likely be the Grey Knights getting off the charge most of the time anyway. And if not, they'll be able to force them to charge into terrain.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
How does Toughness 6 and 4 wounds give you no chance of surviving?

*Looks at the upcoming army with str 5 force weapons on every troop* you're kidding right?

This also makes warriors even more useless than they were in the STR 8 shooting rich 5e environment

Wow, this is a new low for internet stupidity. You're declaring Hive Tyrants instantly murdered by all armies because one army is full of force weapons.

Your math teachers have failed you.

I'll ignore the trolling and simply point out that as the newest flavor of SM, they're going to be a commonly encountered army for a while at least, and merely adds to the things that already make it very difficult to keep a HT (or any other TMC) alive for long, including missile spam, TH/SS Termies, TWC, Sternguard/DE poisoned weapons, FC Huskblade, JotWW..

jy2 wrote:One thing to note regarding Grey Knight force weapons - they can only ever ID 1 model per knight. Thus if a 5-man grey knight strike squad charges a 9-man tyranid warrior unit, even though they're putting out 11 attacks on the charge, they can only ID 5 warriors....taking their psychic tests on 3D6 no less!

Also, if they want to use their force weapons, they cannot use Hammerhand, meaning they're only S4 against TMC's. Then they need to wound on 6's and take the test on 3D6 against the tyrant.

It's a fairly accepted tactic to take a character for your main assault squad/s, in which case the character casts hammerhand, leaving the squad free to use their force weapons. It's been awhile since I looked at the codex now, but I seem to recall they have a banner that makes all psyker powers automatically work... although it may have been restricted in who to take it.

No, it's not so easy to force weapon a tyrant to death....at least not without a Nemesis Daemonhammer.

Also, now's a good time to consider lash whips on your warriors and tyrant.

Lashwhips are always good

Why would the knights want to charge nids? Grey Knights have been and still are primarily a mid-range shooting army. It is also an elitist army with low model counts. The only time you charge with them are:

1) You have no choice.

2) You have a very good chance of wiping out the unit in 1-2 assault phases.

Why you would not want to charge nids:

1) Shadows in the Warp means that you only have about 44% of using your Force capability, with a 17% chance for your justicar to die.

2) TMC's are still damn tough to kill with S4 models.

3) You should shoot the nid units some more until you can more reliably kill it in assault.

4) Nid counter-assault will wipe out that unit.

5) Not every GK unit will have a librarian. IMO I think they will be the 4th most common GK HQ, after the Grandmaster, Coteaz and Crowe.

6) Hive guards will take down any/all transports not a land raider.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:
It's a fairly accepted tactic to take a character for your main assault squad/s, in which case the character casts hammerhand, leaving the squad free to use their force weapons. It's been awhile since I looked at the codex now, but I seem to recall they have a banner that makes all psyker powers automatically work... although it may have been restricted in who to take it.

Not always the case, reason being most GK characters are in terminator armor. With a foot list, yes. In land raiders, yes. With a mech list? No. Crowe cannot join any other unit and grandmasters/brother-captains/librarians are in terminator armor so cannot hang with the knights until they disembark.

Also, banners will not be too popular either. They're expensive....and the banner bearer has not power/force weapons!!! The only unit I see with a banner are deathstar terminator/paladin units in Land Raider Crusaders.

But other than that, it is a viable tactic.

Granted it takes time to get used to no EW on everything in synapse, but its nothing all that drastic.
Just a case of playing slightly different and less reckless with units.

I dont use venoms either.
I find them ok, but rather have decent anti-armour instead for my eltes.


If you want MC's to last longer, give them FNP via a tervigon, or dont rush them straight up the center of the table.

Also, you may think an 5++ isnt that big of a deal, but you should hear the complaints about the swarmlord in combat.
I use him alot now since ive got used to him (and my list is tailored around him)
His 4++ makes him even more of a monster.
Mix in lash guards with him and you have a unit that will win against 100% of everything they fight. (just dont make stupid assaults)

In larger games i run a flyrant to go alongside him and keep the synapse over the board on my gargoyle shields.
Also helps since i use 2-3 harpies (like the model more than the rules) and they need babysitting alot.

Also, the tyrant cant be everything.
It can be a CC monster, a half decent shooter, a mobile assault beast, it keeps units in check.
It has its uses and you need to make use of them, rather than trying to find another use for it.



So, GK rush you with force weps.
Whittle the unit down to a decent size and attack it with a tyrant with lash (or guards with lash)
Aslong as you dont make stupid assaults you will do fine.

jy2 wrote:Why would the knights want to charge nids? Grey Knights have been and still are primarily a mid-range shooting army. It is also an elitist army with low model counts. The only time you charge with them are:

1) You have no choice.

2) You have a very good chance of wiping out the unit in 1-2 assault phases.

With all the force weaponry that Grey Knights are packing, they are masters of this.

And I disagree with GKs being a primarily shooty army now. They're good at that still, but they're also counter assault monsters. Most armies simply don't want to engage them in close combat, they're that scary.

Why you would not want to charge nids:

1) Shadows in the Warp means that you only have about 44% of using your Force capability, with a 17% chance for your justicar to die.

Banner! Don't forget the banner! Force weapon psychic tests are all automatically passed with this awesome, awesome banner.

2) TMC's are still damn tough to kill with S4 models.

But with no invulnerable save, all it takes is one 6 to get the job done.

3) You should shoot the nid units some more until you can more reliably kill it in assault.

Shooting's dandy, but if you have a Hive Tyrant breathing down your neck and you're in a position to assault and win that assault, you sure as hell had better take it.

4) Nid counter-assault will wipe out that unit.

Which one?

5) Not every GK unit will have a librarian. IMO I think they will be the 4th most common GK HQ, after the Grandmaster, Coteaz and Crowe.

But the fact is that GK can take them, and they provide a huge degree of control over their opponent's assault movements.

6) Hive guards will take down any/all transports not a land raider.

At which point you castle up in terrain and start shooting. GK shooting will outdo Tyranid shooting, which means the Tyranids have to assault to get anything done. Which means you'll be in terrain, which means you'll be in control of the situation.


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Also, banners will not be too popular either. They're expensive....and the banner bearer has not power/force weapons!!! The only unit I see with a banner are deathstar terminator/paladin units in Land Raider Crusaders.

Kroot Loops wrote:
I'll ignore the trolling and simply point out that as the newest flavor of SM, they're going to be a commonly encountered army for a while at least, and merely adds to the things that already make it very difficult to keep a HT (or any other TMC) alive for long, including missile spam, TH/SS Termies, TWC, Sternguard/DE poisoned weapons, FC Huskblade, JotWW..

I get it, you don't like that Hive Tyrants can be killed by the things designed to kill Hive Tyrants.

What I don't get is why you think it isn't intentional?

Rather than derail this thread any further, I've posted up a thread in the tactics forum regarding Tyranids against the new Grey Knights.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:
I'll ignore the trolling and simply point out that as the newest flavor of SM, they're going to be a commonly encountered army for a while at least, and merely adds to the things that already make it very difficult to keep a HT (or any other TMC) alive for long, including missile spam, TH/SS Termies, TWC, Sternguard/DE poisoned weapons, FC Huskblade, JotWW..

I get it, you don't like that Hive Tyrants can be killed by the things designed to kill Hive Tyrants.

What I don't get is why you think it isn't intentional?

I don't think it's intentional. I think it's symptomatic of the GW design philosophy that assigns inconsistent points values and thinking that people will build armies based on models and fluff rather than number crunching and points efficiency. GW charges players a premium on points for multi-wound models, but weapons that turn those multi-wound models back into single wound models (ID) are dirt cheap.

If they had wanted to shake up the meta, Tyranids was a good place to do so. An army with no transports would have been game changing if they made anti-tank weapons less valuable, instead they became more valuable. If you take the average of an anti tank weapon to be Str 8, and the average AV value to be 12, you need a roll to hit, a roll of at least 4 to glance, any applicable cover save, and then a roll on the damage chart. For a T6 MC, you need a roll to hit, a 2+ to wound, and you ignore any armor save, so it's just down to cover.

I mean do you really think the ability of a 100 point rune priest to wipe out an entire carnifex brood with one psychic power is in some way balanced? *and* he's immune to Shadows in the Warp if in a transport?

However given that you have been both dense and antagonistic, I don't really expect anything constructive from you.

The worst thing you can say about the tyrant is that it is probably too expensive.

Especially when you compare it to the 4E tyrant. Sure it got a better default statline, and when you add 4e biomorphs to build a 4e tyrant in order to match a standard 5E tyrant, it not surprisingly costs about the same. Its pretty obvious this is the 'formula' Crud used to price the 5E tyrant. However what Crud didn't take into account was that no competitive 4E player would have ever built Tyrants with those stats. It would have been way over priced compared to other builds, and thats basically what we have now with the 5E Tyrant. Tryant's saving grace is that it can do things other nid units can't. Otherwise you would have see nothing but Tervigons (kinda do anyway), which are very well priced for what they do.