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I've been playing 40k for a year now and I've played Necron, Codex Marines, and Tyranids. I'm thinking about switching again because I've noticed a severe lack of speed and inability to nullify armor saves in these armies that has left me continually disappointmented. My question to the dakka dakka forum users is which army has the best speed and ability to nullify armor saves? I've been debating on Blood Angels and the upcoming Grey Knights. But is there anything better?

Dark Eldar are the fastest army in the game, hands down. Some people might disagree with me on certain points, but we have more ways to get into assault and run circles around the other armies than anything else out there.

As far as negating armor saves, we have Dark Lances, Disintegrators, Agonisers, Huskblades, Flesh Gauntlets, Djinn Blades, Blasters, Blast Pistols, Power Weapons, and a few more I just don't have on the top of my head at the moment.

Our downside??? Horrid armor saves ourselves (5+ is normal, sometimes 6+ is the norm) T3 for the majority of the army, and vehicles made out of paper and cardboard.

However, we are usually fast enough to overcome our weaknesses.

For C:SM, make a DP army.

Maybe Orks? No so much on the nullifying armour saves, as putting enough wounds on an enemy to make sure they fail. That or Rokkit spam, for AP3 goodness. And I think we might have some of the fastest vehicles in the game, with Red Paint Job giving an extra inch of movement to already Fast trukks.

I would go with Dark Eldar. Just be prepared to die a lot. Dark Eldar are know as the "glass cannon" for a reason. They bring the pain, fast and hard, and die just as quickly. You need to make sure that you kill everything before it has time to kill you.

you mean getting into the line fastest?

DE, had to be DE

@Galdor I had thought about DE after they had been released, but I may look into them again.

@Rex-Nine I currently run a sternguard DP army. I haven't been as disappointed with it as say the Necrons. But considering half of my 2k list is devoted to sternguards and are essentially a very expensive suicide unit I wanted to look at other options that were competitive.

@Anvildude I had always been amused by orks but hadn't really looked at their speed. I'll have to look into their codex a bit.

Thanks for the help by the way.

Eldar (Banshees in wave serpents-they've got power weapons)

spookman wrote:Eldar (Banshees in wave serpents-they've got power weapons)

but no assaut transport

Incubi also have power weapons and can get raiders or venoms as assault transports

DE are certainly fast and good at ignoring armor saves. Add in killing MC and that is about all they do though.

Dark Eldar, SW drop pod (best DP army) or blood angels.

Niiai wrote: SW drop pod (best DP army)

Really? Why?

Both speed AND armor-ignoring? That would be codex marines.

A couple of combi-plasma (or combi-melta) sternguard combat squadding out of a drop pod will instantly wreck stuff, and they have the option of coming in turn 1 with a non-mishapping scatter. Then you can teleport beacon in some assault terminators and bash face. Also, you can take lots of power weapons/fists on bike squads which can move 24" in a single turn.

And that's just some of the better options. You also have such options as DCCWing things to death and launching lots of devestator rounds (they don't move, but they do get to engage turn 1 and ignore armor saves).

Ailaros wrote:Both speed AND armor-ignoring? That would be codex marines.

WHAT?! What have you been smoking?!?!!?

l0k1 wrote:@Galdor I had thought about DE after they had been released, but I may look into them again.

@Rex-Nine I currently run a sternguard DP army. I haven't been as disappointed with it as say the Necrons. But considering half of my 2k list is devoted to sternguards and are essentially a very expensive suicide unit I wanted to look at other options that were competitive.

@Anvildude I had always been amused by orks but hadn't really looked at their speed. I'll have to look into their codex a bit.

Thanks for the help by the way.

Orks are slow. The fast unit they have are both slower and worse than even DE vehicles. And their capacity means you can't really put anything meaningful in them, and if you do its putting a 300+ unit into a coffin that only moves 19 inches. DE vehicles are armed with a useful weapon, move 24 (or 26-36 if you upgrade) and the effective units you can put inside are much cheaper.

I would go with DE, their vulnerability is a bit overstated. Sure they have 5+ or worse armor, but you can buy up to 6 harmies for cheaper than some people pay for 2 HQs, and they bring pain tokens granting FNP to units you actually care about. In CC the wyches get a 4++ and potentially FNP, makes them more survivable than marines. The vehicles can all buy a 5+ invul save, which provide similar survivability as turbo boosting (and against single shot weapons, similar durability that rhinos have). Of course, DE really depends on composition and play style. If you don't know what you are doing, or mess up, it WILL result in dead units for little gain.

l0k1 wrote:@Galdor I had thought about DE after they had been released, but I may look into them again.

@Rex-Nine I currently run a sternguard DP army. I haven't been as disappointed with it as say the Necrons. But considering half of my 2k list is devoted to sternguards and are essentially a very expensive suicide unit I wanted to look at other options that were competitive.

@Anvildude I had always been amused by orks but hadn't really looked at their speed. I'll have to look into their codex a bit.

Thanks for the help by the way.

What sort of sternguard unit are you running its pretty easy to overspend on options with them. In general what point limit do play, and by ignoring armor do mean MEQ or termie?

With Trukks and Battlewagons (and buggies) yes. Those're mostly used to get into close combat, where that 19", +2" disembark, +6" Fleet (if you Waaagh!!) +6" assault allows for 27-52" assault range, depending on if you try to assault on the first turn or the second.

then again, you could go with Warbikers and Deffkoptas, who I believe are just as fast as any DE.

And Orks, while they don't have the sheer agility of the DE, do have a lot more survivability. DE are something of a Greased Lightning Glass Cannon, while Speed Freeks Orks are more Lightning Bruiser.

Really it comes down to whether you consider good Offense to be a good Defence, or Offense to be the Best defence.

If you wish to stay with Codex Marines I would suggest picking up Shrike. He'll give infiltrate to the unit he joins and gives most of your army Fleet without losing all the normal SM gear that will ignore armour saves.

I'd still recommend DE if you can afford the time/money to collect another army, they are without doubt the fastest army.

Anvildude wrote:With Trukks and Battlewagons (and buggies) yes. Those're mostly used to get into close combat, where that 19", +2" disembark, +6" Fleet (if you Waaagh!!) +6" assault allows for 27-52" assault range, depending on if you try to assault on the first turn or the second.

then again, you could go with Warbikers and Deffkoptas, who I believe are just as fast as any DE.

And Orks, while they don't have the sheer agility of the DE, do have a lot more survivability. DE are something of a Greased Lightning Glass Cannon, while Speed Freeks Orks are more Lightning Bruiser.

Really it comes down to whether you consider good Offense to be a good Defence, or Offense to be the Best defence.

Only the trukks have 19 movement, wagons only can go 13. 6" fleet is only if you use Thraka or get lucky. DE units almost all get fleet EVERY turn, instead of just one turn. DE can use the webway portal in addition to their fast transports.

DE bikes turbo boost 36, and can have anti tank weapons, which can fire and then eldar jet bike movement into terrain (where they have skilled rider). Orks trubo boost 24, and their version of anti tank is a PK. Deffkoptas best aspect is their scout move, and their anti tank options. They are rather costly, and tend to be a suicide unit.

Exergy wrote:DE are certainly fast and good at ignoring armor saves. Add in killing MC and that is about all they do though.

I beg to differ on the part of that is about all they do. While test have shown that the Dark Lance is not the best for AV12 or lower, AV 13 and 14 fear it, and they can bring enough of them that even AV 12 and lower will fear it, just with the amount of shots. DE are not the best for tank killing, but we are one of the best, if not the best, at tank nullifying. As long as I can make it where that LRBT or Vindicator or whatever can't shoot at my paper airplanes, Im a happy space elf . We also have the most feared (at least from what I have seen and noticed) anti Tank weapon in the game: Haywire Grenades. Monoliths fear them, Blessed Hull LR fear them, and so does everything else that has any kind of armor value whatsoever. And unlike our craftworld cousins, we can take them in large numbers for pretty cheap.

Built right, a DE list can shut down anything the opponent can put on the battlefield. We may not be the best at destroying it, and it may take a really good general and some luck, but there is nothing that you can put on the board that the Dark Eldar don't have a good way to make you take it off the board.

@althair I'm using 3 units of 10 sternguard in dp with 9 combi meltas in each group.

I have to confess I started this thread cuz our shop is holding ard boyz in August and wanted something competitive to play. So my next question is how much would it cost to buy an ard boyz competitive DE army?

l0k1 wrote:@althair I'm using 3 units of 10 sternguard in dp with 9 combi meltas in each group.

I have to confess I started this thread cuz our shop is holding ard boyz in August and wanted something competitive to play. So my next question is how much would it cost to buy an ard boyz competitive DE army?

It really depends on what you use. Warrior, hellion, wyche boxes are cheapish (for GW) giving you 10 bodies and a decent amount of options in each box. If you need things that aren't these, or raiders (which are cheapish as well), then expept the price to be much heftier. Reaver units are expensive (11 bucks per PLASTIC model), beast packs are just dumb how expensive they are (400 bucks if you go with official models, or even higher). The HS options are 40-50 bucks, if they even have models.

So assuming 3 ravagers - 150 bucks, 8 boxes of warriors and wyches (to get all the options you are needing, bits trading might help - 200 bucks. 6 raiders (probably needing this many at this point level, if not more) 200 bucks. + random metal other units - 150. So I think you could to a list for about 600-800 bucks. Which is not bad for 2500.

If you want to use beast packs, look for official GW models that could work, like chaos or vampire count warhounds, vampire count bats, hellions for beastmasters (some conversion to make them look different) and whatever you think is appropriate for clawed fiend.

Your stern guard are fine, I would probably proxy in some blood angel games in just to see how feel about them, good luck

Jabbdo wrote:

Niiai wrote: SW drop pod (best DP army)

Really? Why?

A flexibel army list letting you take groups of 5 and get two melta weaponds in the basic suad. Yes 2 assault weaponds, not heavy. Mark of the wolf and wolf banner is very good as well. If you want sternguards(?) of death then wolf guards does it better and cheaper with the combi weaponds. Long fangs can start on table enshuring emty drop pods if the enemy reserves everything, and full once if they do not. The same trick can be done with dreadnoughts and a lesser extend wolf guard splitting (depends in the army list.) The psyker is even good in a drop pod (living lightning in the side of armour or murderus huricane vs hordes) and you get a hood close to his psykers.

Blood angels can and some of the vanilla marines can do good stuff as well but nothing is like spacewolves 12" away from the enemy. If you will you can also do logal lists or logan/regular hybrids (I would not recomend it competetive) but this of course unlocks the dreaded relentles multi-melta split fire start witch is impresive vs moast mechanised armies.

But all in all it comes down to the counter attack witch is very good.

Dark Eldar are the fastest army in the game, hands down. Some people might disagree with me on certain points, but we have more ways to get into assault and run circles around the other armies than anything else out there.

When it comes to sheer speed Ravenwing are faster. There aren't any ravenwing units that can go slower than 24" I run circles around Dark Eldar, because lets face it raiders die really really quickly

As for ignoring armour you can take 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol per squad and count as stationary after moving. And the new Typhoons are a steal at 75 points

Well if you go blood angels take 3 Storm ravens, Astoroth, 3 units of 5 death company with power weapons mixed in and three death company dreads. Now this is a quick army and the DC Dreads have a min 22 inch assualt range possible a 27-28 inch assault range. Everything in the army ignores armour saves. Downside is that you are playing to table your oppenent any time it is not kill points. Not the most competitive army and it needs first turn for turbo boost to survive, but can be fun to run at your oppennent like a lunatic once and while.

Volkov wrote:

Dark Eldar are the fastest army in the game, hands down. Some people might disagree with me on certain points, but we have more ways to get into assault and run circles around the other armies than anything else out there.

When it comes to sheer speed Ravenwing are faster. There aren't any ravenwing units that can go slower than 24" I run circles around Dark Eldar, because lets face it raiders die really really quickly

As for ignoring armour you can take 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol per squad and count as stationary after moving. And the new Typhoons are a steal at 75 points

I agree with this....or maybe i just like it
But scouting marine bikes are fast
Other fast armies are DE or BA

l0k1 wrote:I've been playing 40k for a year now and I've played Necron, Codex Marines, and Tyranids. I'm thinking about switching again because I've noticed a severe lack of speed and inability to nullify armor saves in these armies that has left me continually disappointmented. My question to the dakka dakka forum users is which army has the best speed and ability to nullify armor saves? I've been debating on Blood Angels and the upcoming Grey Knights. But is there anything better?

Blood angels. There troops and tanks all have very good mobility

l0k1 wrote:My question to the dakka dakka forum users is which army has the best speed and ability to nullify armor saves?

To match both of those criteria, I would suggest a C:SM bike army.

I play a C:SM bike army, and the ability to turbo-boost 24" most turns is very impressive. It would also mesh with your current army, so it would save some $$$ on your part.
Make your squads 6 bikes in size. Give your squads 2 PG, 1 MM, and 1 PF each, and each squad will be able to throw out 5 AP2/1 shots per turn.
Support the army with long range fire (riflemen, AC/LC pred, typhoons) and you will be able to crack transports at range and bring some serious pain quickly.

You also get the ability to take a C:SM librarian, opening up Null Zone, which greatly reduces the effect of invuln saves.

A C:SM bike army is not an assault army, but it is a fast, tough, shooty army.

Well if you are facing something that is not asault irentainted getting charged bt STR 4 WS 4 attacks is mean. Feel free to assault moast things as well.