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So trying to build a new termy squad and can't decide if i should run lightning claws or Thunder hammers and Storm shields. Not sure of the differences don't have a rule book and the c:sm refers me to the rule book. but anyways any input would be great. Also does any one have any idea where i can find a few sets of either for a decent price. The Warstore is asking like 5 for claws or 7 for shield and hammers.

Lightning Clawsstrike at strength and initiative and get to reroll to wound.

Thunder Hammers are basically PF's that get a couple other little effects. Storm Shields confer 3++.

th/ss termies can be walked across the battle field where as LC termies need a LR.

LC are better for absolutely destroying infantry, but TH are better for heavy hitting against MC, characters, Tanks, walkers, etc. Also, SS make Terminators even more ridiculously difficult to kill.

3 TH/SS and 2 LC seems to be what most players use, LCs mainly to lessen the amount of blows coming your way.

theduncan wrote:3 TH/SS and 2 LC seems to be what most players use, LCs mainly to lessen the amount of blows coming your way.

This.

Some say 2 TH/SS 3 LC but thats wrong. 3 TH/SS and 2 LC is the best option in a 5 man squad. in 8 man, you go 4/4

The biggest, and most immediately apparent difference when you start rolling dice, is that when you encounter plasma, power weapons or rending, lightning claw terminators fall over. Run 5/5, or at least 4/5 TH/SS. I tried to love the claws, I really did...

Theoretically the lightning claws are there to strike at regular initiative and kill off enemy models, so that by the time you're taking incoming hits, or an appreciable amount of hits, you don't have to make as many saves to begin with...buuuut in reality, most of the things that someone willingly gets in CC with your terminators will have at minimum I4, will probably have furious charge on top of it, striking before your LCs, likely have rending or power attacks, and now you have to take a lot of ++ saves on not as many storm shields. (Black templars who DO still have FC terminators need not read the above paragraph.)

MCs and the like, that can't be instamashed by your TH bearing members, well, then the strategy has some validity in that once the THs reduce the targets initiative to one (Translation: The squad didn't manage to kill it in the first phase) you can hopefully pulp him with your LCs before it strikes with the THs...but uh...what do you think would've happened if you had simply taken more thunderhammers? I'm betting that against almost all MCs, wounding on 2+ beats rerolling 6+.

Against hordes...Well, yes, you can put out one whole extra attack per model in your small squad of likely 5-8 (Against the 20-30+ models you are up against..) and also lose the ability of those models to help ID scarabs, rippers, warriors, most races ICs, and now they can't help you versus the odd dread or vehicle either. Remember kids, at least if you're running codex marines: You don't have krak grenades for those LC equipped models anymore! For that matter, you don't have frag either! Which brings me to the next one:

More initiative games! Without a land raider crusader/redeemer, if you assault into terrain, you will strike at initiative:Crap regardless of TH or LC. If you assault a warrior squad, you need to not ever get your LCs in base to base with a lash whip.

Anyway, the point is TH/SS give you the ability to take punishment like no other unit in your codex by far. This is an unstoppable ratchet clamp on the throat of your opponent, not a battle axe to the face. Play that up. Besides, phalanxes look cool.

Yea I was thinking bout runnin a mixture of both. Possibly magnetizing them to change things up as needed. granted staying power isnt much of a problem with termies so far but some extra power would be nice.

Have a squad of termies to fill out. Have 5 stormbolter arms and and a powersword for the sergant but I'm not sure if i want another squad of normal termies since ive already got an identical one plus a heavy flamer.

Maybe making them interchangeable between a shooty squad and a CC squad

Always a good idea, for my part, my shooty terminators got converted into CC terminators when I got the ability to take sternguard squads, and got even shootier short range shootyness! But I still do keep the arms around, just in case one day in the future I decide I need stormbolters and assault cannons again.

yea the plan is to eventually get the bikes for my white scars so its actualy a white scars force instead of white ultra marines cant decide wat would be more important some decent shooting or strong cc units. what do you thing would complement them better

Land speeders. Multimelta + Heavy flamer or with the two shot missile launcher upgrade, depending on your taste.

Personally I prefer the MM/HF, but eh.

Where do the terminators fit in the overall army exactly? Are they going to be the centerpiece of your force or what? I assume they will have a land raider, which one? What job are the units going to do respectively?

Lightning claws with a TH/SS or two to soak up some wounds

all in planning but the bikes will probly be a center point with the termies just kinda filing in as needed probly pick up the land raider a little later down the road. I'd like to use the termies as suport to taake down anything to big a pain in the butt for the bikes to deal with

As others have said, THSS is WAY the better buy. Throwing in some LCs is a good idea, but more for reasons like wound wrapping. Against things which are good against terminators, termies with storm shields count as two terminators...

Really, the only time to take lightning claws for their own sake is if you don't have the option of taking storm shields (5 MoK termie champions with LCs = HOUSE OF PAIN!)

LC's are also a good choice in the BA book with access to furious charge. Still a good idea to have a mix.

pdawg517 wrote:LC's are also a good choice in the BA book with access to furious charge. Still a good idea to have a mix.

I would only run full claws with black templars. re-roll hit and wound with s5 and i5 is awesome. 8 charging destroys any other termie squad.

Really depends on what else is in your list and what you meta is like.

If you are running Vulkan you want all thunder hammer stormshields because he master crafts thunder hammers.

Blood Angels with Priests for furious charge claws become more attractive as they are more likely to strike first and are strength 5. however you still want 3+ invulnerables so 3 storm shields 2 claws would be the way to go here.

If you run into alot of ap1 and ap2 you might lean towards all stormshields or 4 stormshield and 1 claw.

Claw or two does help you if your fighting other stormshield terminators to maybe kill one so you get less attacks back.

What are the thoughts on running Termies armed with 1 lightning claw and a storm shield?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:What are the thoughts on running Termies armed with 1 lightning claw and a storm shield?

Uhh. . . Don't think its an option at least not by the codex rules its either both claws or shield and hammer

Oh ok, I was thinking of Space Wolves, they can take LC/SS, I figured the same applied to normal Space Marine Terminators as well.

sounds like a decent idea to me but unfortunatly wolves win in that respect

BA assault terms should have something like 2 TH/SS and 3 LC to take advantage of FC and the SS to absorb PF or ap 1-2.

DW Term should be TH/SS x 3, LC x 2, ML or HF

Even if it was an option for my marines, I wouldn't take it in a million years. Lightning claws only get the +1 attack for having two of them, and rerolling S4 or even S5 wounds doesn't come up to par with the punishment the thunderhammer unleashes.

The I4 part of the claws would be awesome...if the average I wasn't 4 or better, particularly on heavier hitting CC troops...before furious charge, which you are likely up against as well. Given that....If they spent all their attacks at I4 or faster....your lightning claws might as well have been I1 for all the good they did you. Might as well take the double strength and extra stuff vs. vehicles and multiwound T5+

This of course does not apply to those who can still get furious charge on their ATs. I am not one of those, and I am assuming the OP is asking about codex marines, maybe foolishly. I5 lets you swing before a fair few of the things you are likely to be up against, particularly MEQs with power weapons and some Tyranid MCs.

Yeah but LC/SS Wolf Guard Termies cost 53pts... and it's 63pts for TH/SS.

In the case of space wolves, powerfists are the same cost as a wolf claw on a terminator. Or get the option *I* would love to take on at least one terminator and take a chainfist for the same cost as a thunderhammer. Single lightning claws are a bit laughable, but at least SW can reroll your misses instead of wounds, making it a little more bearable.

yea just runnin Codex marines a white scars army in particular once i get korsarro and end up picking up a ravenwing battle force to give me a good start to a bike force

In my opinion, since I KNOW what you have and I probably have the stuff you need to make the squad work lol, unless you bought a new one during the break, I'd say you need the TH/SS termies.

You'll have lots of fast attack options and tons of speed, but trust me when I say that myself, and the other guys you play will have plans in place to deal with most things - but TH/SS termies is just one of those things you CANT plan for. Try as you might, they're DAMN hard to kill outright, especially if you've got bikes and speeders flying around causing havoc.

In my opinion anyways. ALSO, GLAD TO SEE YOU ON DAKKA WITH AN ACCOUNT!!!! GRATZ!!!

yea i was leaning towards the th/ss and ive had my dakka account pretty much since i bought the black reach models from you

In a Terminator assault squad I like to mix it up just a little, like 2-3 LC guys and the rest TH/SS. I do ALWAYS put em in a LR though!

IMHO striking at I4 and S4 isn't worth it, even with rerolls. Real CC monsters will have a better initiative and most likely armor ignoring leaving you to rely on 5++ (no thanks). In such an occasion, THs are obviously better because you'll be striking last anyways and you get the 3++ with the strength bonus. Not that you want to get into combat with such a squad with your terminators anyway. But on the chance you do, the shields will provide the best benefit.

Now consider going against something less CC oriented: 4s across the CC statistics, with not so many, if any PWeapons. This is the type of squad Termies should be going against in CC imho. Not so trifling as to make a waste of terminator benefits, but not so strong as to make a mockery of them. Here I would still go with shields. Models in non-CC specialized units without PW aren't very likely to get through your 2+, so there is no harm to going second as opposed to striking at the same time. Against those with PW, you have the 3++ waiting for any wounds that get through when they strike first. Your greater strength and survivability from the TH/SS will put you over the edge rather than attacking simultaneously, even at +1A with a reroll.

The only place I can see claws being beneficial is if you are going against a horde of non-CC units with one or no PW and lower initiative than 4. Here, you get the 2+ which will be fine considering virtual lack of PW. Striking first with the claws will make a significant difference in this instance, since, considering you are fighting a horde, you will be able to reduce the number of models that attack back and statistically reduce their chance to have you fail the 2+. That being said, there are probably other units in your army that could handle such a squad rather than terminators, whose efforts would be better (if not entirely desired - ie against CC elites) directed against the other types of troops mentioned, and would therefore be better off with the shields.

Against shooting, especially for walking termies, all shields are a must imo. Consider the following. Weight of fire can cause you to lose shield bearing models quickly. This will leave you more susceptible to AP2 fire. For instance, if you lose you 2 SS AP2 wound catchers in a squad, suddenly the remainder are easy prey for AP2 shooters. Going with all shields makes it as difficult as possible for both regular small arms fire and AP2 weaponry to bring down your termies.

Happy hunting!