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I was wondering fluffwise what legion was the king of close combat. I'm assuming it would be either World Eaters or Blood Angels but if there is another toss it out there, I am pretty curious about this. Thanks in advance.

World Eaters were the most Brutal of all of the Legions, of that you can be assured, as their Primarch took over and pretty much warped them all into inhumane killing machines (Which is unfortunate, as they were a strong Legion before his influence).

Blood Angels were the fewest in number, and not necessarily the best in Close combat.

When it comes to close combat, I'd imagine you're looking at the Emperor's Children as some of the best in close combat, due to the fact they were the sons of Fulgrim, arguably one of the greastest combatants of all the Primarchs (Might get disputed on this one. ). They strived for perfection in all that they did, an easy fall to Chaos that Legion.

I always thought Sanguineous was the best hth fighter. I think the current fluff has Horus resorting to sorcery to kill him because he could not best him martialy.

As far as the best close combat legion, it's always been a debate between the Blood Angels and World Eaters. The WE had their crazy brain implants and this was before the BA had the black rage. As far as ferocity and brutality is concerned it'd be the WE. The BA had alot more discipline and martial pride though, and often times a clear mind sees what the berzerker does not.

+1 for EC. I'd say it'd be between them and WE.

Well, the World Eaters were also one of the bigger legions right?

Matt1785 wrote:
When it comes to close combat, I'd imagine you're looking at the Emperor's Children as some of the best in close combat, due to the fact they were the sons of Fulgrim, arguably one of the greastest combatants of all the Primarchs (Might get disputed on this one. ).

While I can't speak for the prowess of the Legionnaires themselves, in Fulgrim,


Personally, my money would be on the World Eaters. Blood Angels would be close but not quite as battle crazy. The Space Wolves would also be contenders, but I suspect they'd lag behind either Blood Angels or World Eaters. In terms of close combat, man to man, World Eaters would likely have an edge. In the overall battle, the more disciplined Blood Angels might be able to achieve victory.

Honestly, in a straight up fight, a berzerker will almost certainly win, and the World Eaters are likely to have more of them than the Blood Angels.

Bromsy wrote:Well, the World Eaters were also one of the bigger legions right?

If I recall correctly, they were rather small compared to the Luna Wolves, Ultramarines and Word Bearers.

Pre-Heresy BA did not have the red thirst and were not so much berserkers as red guys that kinda liked close combat.

World eaters were already berserkers.

Emperor's Children were the best at fighting.

Brutality doesn't mean you're good at hand-to-hand. Though I would imagine those that seek it are often good at it.

I must say I really don't know which Chapter prides itself on HTH combat, but I would imagine any Chapter that prefers assault tactics would be a candidate.

In terms of sheer brutality, it'd be the World Eaters. If it's in terms of finesse, that would be the Emperor's Children.

i'd say world eaters or night lords for sheer assaulty, beserker, death dealing, fear incarnate machines

Hmmm very interesting thoughts.
A friend of mine claimed in one of the HH novels

Hearing that got me thinking about this whole subject. Anyway thanks for all the feedback thus far

Which HH novel did he find that in? I would definitely say a match up between Space Wolves, World Eaters, and Blood Angels.

Pre-Heresy Blood angels were not CC specialists more so than any other legions. I've read the entirety of the HH series thus far and cannot remember anyone stating they were better than anyone else at CC. Not Sanguinius, mind you, I'm speaking of the legion.
Though this could change at any moment with the release of a new HH book.
Until then I will continue believing as I do: that the Blood Angels affinity for Close combat came with the the Black Rage, and thus after the Heresy.

As for Pre-heresy lords of CC I would list the top 3 as:
1. Emperor's Children
2. World Eaters
3. Space Wolves

It's also looking like the more HH novels that come out, the more likely that the Raven Guard will be top contenders as well... but not yet.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Pre-Heresy Blood angels were not CC specialists more so than any other legions. I've read the entirety of the HH series thus far and cannot remember anyone stating they were better than anyone else at CC. Not Sanguinius, mind you, I'm speaking of the legion.
Though this could change at any moment with the release of a new HH book.
Until then I will continue believing as I do: that the Blood Angels affinity for Close combat came with the the Black Rage, and thus after the Heresy.

As for Pre-heresy lords of CC I would list the top 3 as:
1. Emperor's Children
2. World Eaters
3. Space Wolves

There is a quote somewhere that says during the early days of the Crusade, both the WE and BA (being similarly assault-orientated in nature) used to compete and had a brotherly rivalry in terms of which Legion could be most successful in that regard. It doesn't mention whether this was before or after their respective primarchs were discovered. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it however, it may have been the Collected Visions Horus Heresy book, or one of the IA articles. I shall have a fish around.

My own take on the WE was that they were already assault orientated as the War Hounds, even before the discovery of Angron. That they would have had some kind of genetic disposition (that of their sire) towards aggression and bloodshed in melee, but that was increased massively when their primarch joined them, and let them off the leash. I don't think it was likely that they just said 'oh, ok then' when they found their Primarch, dropped their boltguns and picked up chain axes. Although, I realise this did happen increasingly as the Crusade wore on and Angron ordered the use of neural implants in his Legion.

Other than those two, I would have to say the Space Wolves. Both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns painted the Space Wolves (or 'the rout' ) as absolutely terrifying! They have also been revealed now as the Emperor's attack dogs, if I were a betting man I would put money on them being one of the most horrific up close. Of course, what we also know now from Prospero Burns is that they were also very intelligent in their attacks, which would make them even more effective.

Orkymike wrote:Which HH novel did he find that in?

Sounds like something from BFtA, you know that HH book that nobody read

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Matt1785 wrote:
When it comes to close combat, I'd imagine you're looking at the Emperor's Children as some of the best in close combat, due to the fact they were the sons of Fulgrim, arguably one of the greastest combatants of all the Primarchs (Might get disputed on this one. ).

While I can't speak for the prowess of the Legionnaires themselves, in Fulgrim,

Spoiler:

Fulgrim was being defeated in close combat by Ferrus Manus until the daemon within Fulgrim's sword turned the tide.

Personally, my money would be on the World Eaters. Blood Angels would be close but not quite as battle crazy. The Space Wolves would also be contenders, but I suspect they'd lag behind either Blood Angels or World Eaters. In terms of close combat, man to man, World Eaters would likely have an edge. In the overall battle, the more disciplined Blood Angels might be able to achieve victory.

Honestly, in a straight up fight, a berzerker will almost certainly win, and the World Eaters are likely to have more of them than the Blood Angels.

Fulgrim was fully aware of what he was doing, the sword never actually took over until Ferus manus was dead.

Anyway I agree that the world eaters were the best in combat, much better than blood angels. I also think that the world eaters would beat space wolves in combat. Oh and world eaters were all lobotamized making them even more brutal in combat

Cannibal wrote:I always thought Sanguineous was the best hth fighter. I think the current fluff has Horus resorting to sorcery to kill him because he could not best him martialy.

As far as the best close combat legion, it's always been a debate between the Blood Angels and World Eaters. The WE had their crazy brain implants and this was before the BA had the black rage. As far as ferocity and brutality is concerned it'd be the WE. The BA had alot more discipline and martial pride though, and often times a clear mind sees what the berzerker does not.

Untrue. In the official fluff (I.e. stuff that i not from novels) it pretty much says Verbatim 'Even at the height of his powers and not wounded as he was Sanguinius was No match for Horus' think it even describes how Horus Lazily throttles him with ease.

I am liking this Emperor's Children Argument. Then again the world eaters were 'Augmented' with their stim injectors so they would be stronger and posibly faster than normal marines.

moonshine wrote:
Fulgrim was fully aware of what he was doing, the sword never actually took over until Ferus manus was dead.

Perkustin wrote:Untrue. In the official fluff (I.e. stuff that i not from novels) it pretty much says Verbatim 'Even at the height of his powers and not wounded as he was Sanguinius was No match for Horus' think it even describes how Horus Lazily throttles him with ease.

To be honest, I always took that to be due to Horus' Chaos enhanced powers, not just close combat skills.

Cannibal wrote:I always thought Sanguineous was the best hth fighter. I think the current fluff has Horus resorting to sorcery to kill him because he could not best him martialy.

As far as the best close combat legion, it's always been a debate between the Blood Angels and World Eaters. The WE had their crazy brain implants and this was before the BA had the black rage. As far as ferocity and brutality is concerned it'd be the WE. The BA had alot more discipline and martial pride though, and often times a clear mind sees what the berzerker does not.

What no wolf love here?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

moonshine wrote:
Fulgrim was fully aware of what he was doing, the sword never actually took over until Ferus manus was dead.

Spoiler:

Yes, but Fulgrim was also losing until he drew the daemon sword and it made him stronger, enough to make him stronger than Ferrus Manus. It also took sufficient control to kill Manus, which Fulgrim could stop.

.

Troy wrote:

Cannibal wrote:I always thought Sanguineous was the best hth fighter. I think the current fluff has Horus resorting to sorcery to kill him because he could not best him martialy.

As far as the best close combat legion, it's always been a debate between the Blood Angels and World Eaters. The WE had their crazy brain implants and this was before the BA had the black rage. As far as ferocity and brutality is concerned it'd be the WE. The BA had alot more discipline and martial pride though, and often times a clear mind sees what the berzerker does not.

What no wolf love here?

When the topic switches to best beer guzzlers and those who recount their tales the best. Then wolves come in #1.

Oh and I don't think leman russ could kill Horus or angron in combat. Imo Russ is not that good in combat

moonshine wrote:Oh and I don't think leman russ could kill Horus or angron in combat. Imo Russ is not that good in combat

He was pretty good.
He was probably equal to Angron IMO.

As far as WE vs EC goes, I remember reading This is some evidence where sheer brutality and an everything-goes mentality would probably benefit you more in a 1v1. I have to give the belt to a WE when up close and personal with an EC.

Obrek wrote:As far as WE vs EC goes, I remember reading

Spoiler:

Loken defeats Lucius(super epic HtH dude of EC) simply by punching him in the nose during a sword duel.

This is some evidence where sheer brutality and an everything-goes mentality would probably benefit you more in a 1v1. I have to give the belt to a WE when up close and personal with an EC.

Obrek wrote:As far as WE vs EC goes, I remember reading

Spoiler:

Loken defeats Lucius(super epic HtH dude of EC) simply by punching him in the nose during a sword duel.

This is some evidence where sheer brutality and an everything-goes mentality would probably benefit you more in a 1v1. I have to give the belt to a WE when up close and personal with an EC.

That one hardly counts. As Lucius thought of it as a Sword duel, not a Brawl. It was the equivalent of getting in a Boxing match with an awesome boxer, but the not as good boxer wins because he kicks the awesome one in the junk.

I don't see where the idea of EC being superior in close combat is coming from. Combat-wise they didn't favour any particular form of close combat, they were flexible, well oiled war-machine. The World Eaters would rely on Close Combat, the Thousand Sons would rely on Sorcery, whereas the Emperors Children would rely on their tactics and coordination.
I can't ever recall hearing that the EC favoured or were even superior in close combat, however in Fulgrim (or one of the earlier 3 novels), it describes the Emperors Children's method of fighting; coming across as close-range firefights (where Space Marine excel) with units and individuals working in perfect unison with each other.

The Emperors Children were superior in regards to their tactics and efficiency, not their CC prowess IMO.


Also, that some people are picking out individuals?!

In regards to the Primarchs:


In regards to the question of the topic, World Eaters or Blood Angels, I don't think there's a definitive answer. During the Great Crusade, it seems that the WE were much more of a 'blunt instrument', used to bludgeon your opponents to death and simply rip apart their defences. Whereas, the Blood Angels seem much more surgical, striking at the enemies weak points.

If there is a comment about a WE admitting that the BA's are superior in combat, I imagine that's probably Kharn in one of the more recent HH books, possibly The First Heretic. Nonetheless, AFAIK there's no statements anywhere (except possibly Kharn as I just mentioned) that either force is superior, so it's likely a simple matter of debate/theorising vs. evidence, but it's certainly a good question (kudos to the OP).
Personally, I'd put my money on the WE. They were fully and entirely dedicated to close combat it seems, they possessed possibly the most jump infantry and were augmented for close combat. The BA would not be far behind, but they don't possess the rage or physical augmentations the WE and I'd imagine they'd be more flexible in their combat capabilities.

I actually think in regards to the primarchs Horus was probably the best fighter. Forget chaos gods he saved the emperor's life numerous (iirc, can't remember the exact wording) times and had been the longest serving one of the primarch's. Regardless you can't rule him out as we only really know about Horus the chaos Possesed not Horus the Mighty Warmaster who led from the front.

Perkustin wrote:I actually think in regards to the primarchs Horus was probably the best fighter. Forget chaos gods he saved the emperor's life numerous (iirc, can't remember the exact wording) times and had been the longest serving one of the primarch's. Regardless you can't rule him out as we only really know about Horus the chaos Possesed not Horus the Mighty Warmaster who led from the front.

Yeah because he had an entire rountine of terminators backing him up. The Emperor went in alone.