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The mournival is not in index astartes or a codex/rulebook/supplement so is not confirmed canon, it is an invention of sabretooth games (?) and the horus heresy ccg. (Also iirc correctly gw has never confirmed novels as canon)

Just Dave seems to be the most on point here.

In the scope of WE vs. BA, WE I think would be considered more proficient in melee combat.

In the scope of all legions, it would probably be SW or WE.

In regard to Fulgrim vs. Ferrus Manus:

Perkustin wrote:The mournival is not in index astartes or a codex/rulebook/supplement so is not confirmed canon, it is an invention of sabretooth games (?) and the horus heresy ccg. (Also iirc correctly gw has never confirmed novels as canon)

The mournival is an existing organisation stated repeatedly in the HH novels which are (rightly) being used as the main source of information for this thread. However, I think the previous poster may have been referring to the Justaerian (sp?) which are effectly the 1st company terminators led by Abbadon.

Horus may well have been the most proficient fighter, however there is no real evidence of this matter. IIRC he stated himself Sanguinius was one of the best (someone can find the quote for if they want), whilst Russ, Angron, Fulgrim (and to a lesser extent, Curze) have evidence for their abilities. For Horus it would partially be speculation. Not unreasonable speculation, I may add, but it's unlikely he's the best fighter as well as possibly the best leader...


For overall Legion, I think it's worth remembering that despite their reputation, the Space Wolves aren't typically a Close Combat orientated force (post-heresy at least), but are simply very in-your-face and close ranged. The two main close combat legions are of course, the World Eaters and Blood Angels and I'd argue it's between these two for the most superior Legion.



as for Fulgrim vs. Ferrus:

I don't think russ was as good as angron, angron was so strong kharn could feel his bionics breaking when he fought him. I doubt russ was that strong.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Thousand Sons. They can predict the movements of their opponents before they happen (like a jedi). For Primarchs Magnus easily could defeat any of his brothers as he can appear the size of a titan and simply step on them. He allowed Russ to defeat him on Prospero because he felt his legion owed a penance to the Emperor.

I'm not saying Angron is necessarily stronger than Russ, I'm suggesting that Russ likely has better or as-good-as martial prowess/ ability in a one-on-one fight.
As I said, Russ was apparently designed to be the ultimate killer, in that he was supposed be to capable of taking down almost any one enemy in combat, including primarchs. Whilst Angron is the more focussed on combat, likely stronger, more aggressive etc. I'd argue Russ to be the controlled, ruthless and ultimately skilled; I wouldn't say either one of them is 'better' than the other in a 1 v 1 fight, but that they're as good as each other.

Nonetheless, it's not really relevant to the topic of superior CC Legion. Superior CC primarch has been argued MANY times and it's usually down to Russ or Angron AFAIK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

augustus5 wrote:I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Thousand Sons. They can predict the movements of their opponents before they happen (like a jedi). For Primarchs Magnus easily could defeat any of his brothers as he can appear the size of a titan and simply step on them. He allowed Russ to defeat him on Prospero because he felt his legion owed a penance to the Emperor.

Well, the OP is talking close combat, which is why the Thousand Sons haven't been mentioned, as that's where they're weakest. In a straight up fight, Psychic Powers included, they're likely the most powerful Legion IMHO, however they'd likely loose to most others in close combat.

Just Dave wrote:
as for Fulgrim vs. Ferrus:

Spoiler:

I'd strongly argue Fulgrim to be the superior combatant; he was known as martially skilled whereas Ferrus was an artisan. Furthermore, Fulgrim beat Ferrus TWICE and it is highly unlikely the Chaos Gods had any significant role in either combat (in regards to how it played out, rather than why it happened), as the sword only influenced Fulgrims decisions (eg. Killing blow) rather than his actual fighting capability and he had Ferrus on the back foot for most of the combat IIRC.

Fulgrim was losing just before the Daemon interfered. It saved his life.

augustus5 wrote:He allowed Russ to defeat him on Prospero because he felt his legion owed a penance to the Emperor.

I'm pretty sure by the time he came out to fight Russ he'd changed his mind. Didn't he become a Daemon Prince on Prospero?

Just Dave wrote:As I said, Russ was apparently designed to be the ultimate killer, in that he was supposed be to capable of taking down almost any one enemy in combat, including primarchs.

As far as I know, the idea of the Space Wolves being the Emperor's executioners comes from the Space Wolves themselves, who aren't a reliable source. They seem to be impressed with their own ability, but whether or not it's entirely justifed against other Space Marines I don't know.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
as for Fulgrim vs. Ferrus:

Spoiler:

I'd strongly argue Fulgrim to be the superior combatant; he was known as martially skilled whereas Ferrus was an artisan. Furthermore, Fulgrim beat Ferrus TWICE and it is highly unlikely the Chaos Gods had any significant role in either combat (in regards to how it played out, rather than why it happened), as the sword only influenced Fulgrims decisions (eg. Killing blow) rather than his actual fighting capability and he had Ferrus on the back foot for most of the combat IIRC.

Fulgrim was losing just before the Daemon interfered. It saved his life.

Just read the extract now,

I'm pretty sure by the time he came out to fight Russ he'd changed his mind. Didn't he become a Daemon Prince on Prospero?

Yeah, I agree. Much like Ferrus/Fulgrim, Magnus had gone past the point of no return when he duelled Russ and he was fighting with all his strength it seems.

As I said, Russ was apparently designed to be the ultimate killer, in that he was supposed be to capable of taking down almost any one enemy in combat, including primarchs.

As far as I know, the idea of the Space Wolves being the Emperor's executioners comes from the Space Wolves themselves, who aren't a reliable source. They seem to be impressed with their own ability, but whether or not it's entirely justifed against other Space Marines I don't know.

Just Dave wrote:
Just read the extract now,

Spoiler:

They were doing equally 'well' in combat, then after seeing the injury he inflicted upon his brother, Fulgrim saw his actions clearly/without influence and tried to reach out to his brother, by which time Ferrus had gone past the point of no return for him and ignored his pleas and went to make the killing blow, before the daemon/slaanesh saved Fulgrim, so ultimately I'd say there were equals after closer inspection; Ferrus almost winning due to Fulgrims hesitation (which is no reflection of his CC ability) and Fulgrim actually winning due to the daemon, so I'd say they're equals.

Fulgrim doesn't seem to reach the same level of anger and commitment that Ferrus Manus does, true. It's hard to tell. I'd probably favour Manus slightly, but I don't really like Fulgrim so I'm a bit biased against him.

Spoiler:

True, I agree. However, to me it seems clear that many of the other Space Marines agree with this; Magnus knew that if he did wrong it would be Russ that would be his punishment (then again, this COULD be due to their previous disagreements) and didn't he also refer to the Wolves as the executioners? IIRC other Legions, such as at Nikaea and Horus' purposeful diverting of Russ, get the impression that the Space Wolves are seen as the executioners.
I know what you are saying, but it would seem to fit the evidence and their fluff, in that they get the dirty jobs (HEAVILY implied they had to fight SM's before; the missing Legions?) and are relied upon to get things done when no others would. As you said, there's going to be some bias due to the viewpoint, but I still believe evidence and others suggest that the Wolves are the executioners...

I don't know, I haven't actually read the book. As for knowing the Wolves would be sent, that does seem in keeping with the Emperor sending Legions that dislike each other to deal with the other - the Ultramarines helping with the Word Bearers, for instance (I think they had some enmity between them, no?) It doesn't really seem to fit the fluff when the Night Lords and World Eaters could both be relied on to do the same thing, but I see your point.

moonshine wrote:I don't think russ was as good as angron, angron was so strong kharn could feel his bionics breaking when he fought him. I doubt russ was that strong.

Leman Russ destroyed a titan with his hands. He's far and away the most physically strong of the Primarchs.

His whole role was to be the guy that killed the other Primarchs if they went bad.

Hmm well I know the BA Codex talks of the rivalry with the WE, so the two legions were obviously widely recognised as assaulty legions. I have also read elsewhere that while the rivalry became quite intense the BA couldnt truely match the blunt brutality of the WE. This doesnt mean that the WE were more skilled fighters however most fluff merely talks of brutallity, skill would mean little to an astartes fighting non astartes for example.

I will also contest the EC's inclusion in this debate, while they had some of the most skilled fighters in the legions this wasnt a collective or organised thing, different EC had different areas they strove for perfection on, not to mention the fact that orienting their legion purely for assault would have seemed an imperfect way of waging war.

And to fuel the slightly OT debate Sanguinius is quoted as being one of the few Primarchs able to defeat (not necessarily on a regular basis) Horus in single combat before the chaos gods imparted him with power.

Perkustin wrote:The mournival is not in index astartes or a codex/rulebook/supplement so is not confirmed canon, it is an invention of sabretooth games (?) and the horus heresy ccg. (Also iirc correctly gw has never confirmed novels as canon)

At Gencon 08 (may have been 09) a bunch of GW bigwigs, including Alan Merrett (who is the brainchild and head-honcho of all 40k background) confirmed that the HH series book series only can be regarded as canon, when talking about the sequence of events that comprised the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy.

Even if that were not the case, I doubt there would be anyone wading into a HH discussion thread these days who is choosing to ignore the 15 or so novels written about it, in favour of a snippet in the SM codex and 150 word sections at the start of each IA article.

Lion El'jonson...

If its a toss up between Angron and Russ, remember that Jonson was Russ's equal in every way.
People always seem to forget this

It's interesting that so far the only legions mentioned for 'best hand-to-hand' are the ones that have had books or short stories devoted to them. Emperor's Children? Really?

The World Eaters got their reputation because they used close assault extensively, even exclusively, and were prone to leaving a high body count. Blood Angels exercised a more rounded battle doctrine, and assault was only a component of that. I'd say the sons of Sanguinius are supposed to have had the most native talent for close combat, while World Eaters seem to have had raw strength on their side.

Exopheric wrote:It's interesting that so far the only legions mentioned for 'best hand-to-hand' are the ones that have had books or short stories devoted to them. Emperor's Children? Really?

The World Eaters got their reputation because they used close assault extensively, even exclusively, and were prone to leaving a high body count. Blood Angels exercised a more rounded battle doctrine, and assault was only a component of that. I'd say the sons of Sanguinius are supposed to have had the most native talent for close combat, while World Eaters seem to have had raw strength on their side.

I can agree with this, but to throw a spanner into the works... Death Guard, THE best Close quarters fighters, get into bolter range and yer boned

I'd argue Space Wolves to be the best close quarters fighters and that's even when trying to be impartial. Nonetheless, no matter who's apparently the best close quarters fighters (something much trickier to decide), it's not really the topic.

I'd still have to opt for World Eaters as the strongest CC Legion personally.

I think the EC were the best at close quaters, in fulgrim they just stand and shoot. I agree that the world eaters are best cc. Did'nt the ultramarines once have to storm a fortress and find the world eaters had already killed the defenders ?