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Here's the situation.

I have a Nemesis Dread Knight and elect to buy a Nemesis Great Sword to get all those groovy rerolls. I then also buy a Nemesis Daemon Hammer. From what I can see the benefits of the Great Sword transfesr to the Daemon Hammer, essentially giving you the rerolls, double strength (Max 10) and stunning along with the rerolls at Initiative (which with Quicksilver would be I10).

Each simply replaces 1 Nemesis Doomfist (it has two). The Great Sword allows the model to reroll, it does not specify attacks with the weapon per se.

All for 35 points.

Would this work?

Is it cheese? (I think I know the answer there... )

I don't think you can do that....

Its probably like buying a thunder hammer and a power sword for a terminator; you choose one weapon or the other to use each turn in close combat.

I elect to use the Hammer. But the rules for the Great Sword don't appear contingent upon use. They indicate a model equipped with a Great Sword may reroll hits, wounds and vehicle damage. It says nothing about using the weapon itself.

Isn't that kind of implied?

Implied is not RAW.

This codex was written soooo poorly.

No you can't do that. Any model wielding 2 different special CCW must choose which weapon the benefits will come from, and also can NOT claim the additional +1A for wielding 2 CCW (as the NDK is not a walker). (BRB pg 42)

So you'd have to choose to use the special abilities of the hammer, or the great sword. The re-rolls are the 3rd bonus ability of the Nemesis Great Sword. Much like re-rolling wounds are a bonus ability of lightning claws (in the BRB it says it "allows" just like the NGS), but if you have 1 LC and 1 other weapon you have to choose which set of bonus abilities you're using that turn..

kryhavok wrote:No you can't do that. Any model wielding 2 different special CCW must choose which weapon the benefits will come from, and also can NOT claim the additional +1A for wielding 2 CCW (as the NDK is not a walker). (BRB pg 42)

So you'd have to choose to use the special abilities of the hammer, or the great sword.

Hmm, I'll look at the page you mention when I get a chance, but are you sure you're choosing which effects to apply and not which weapon to strike with (or both)? Take Nids for example. The CCW's are tooth and claws, but they can gain multiple effects (i.e., benefits) by being equipped with different 'special' CCWs. Scything Talons + Rending Claws.

'Being equipped with' is different from wielding. If the Great Sword's beneift/effect is active merely by being equipped as opposed to wielded, I not sure how you can deny it. Again, I need to take a look at the page you referenced.

-Yad

Tyranids do not use CCW as other armies do. Do not reference their rules.

I think that the analogy is both crystal clear and intensely similar. The short of it is is that there are weapons that provide bonuses/effects/benefits by simply being equipped and not necessarily wielded in combat.

-Yad

It is not, as the Tyranids have a rule stating that they get the benefits from all their modifications.

Monstrous Creatures do not.

If they have 2 special weapons, they must choose one of them to use in CC.

ObiFett wrote:Implied is not RAW.

This codex was written soooo poorly.

well it should be ><

ObiFett wrote:Implied is not RAW.

There is a fair amount of debate about that, regularly.

The number of times "precedent" can be found in the first page of threads alone should prove that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:'Being equipped with' is different from wielding.

Not if you are making use of it.

This is why I say that.

Actually you may not purchase both. The codex states that you may only replace ONE doomfist. You may not replace both.

Nemesis Greatswords are CCWs, as are Doomfists and Daemon Hammers. You can only gain the benefits of any one CCW at a time.

This is cut and dry.

DarknessEternal wrote:Nemesis Great Swords are CCWs, as are Doomfists and Daemon Hammers. You can only gain the benefits of any one CCW at a time.

This is cut and dry.

It's for this reason I personally won't be buying a swords for my NDK. The doom fists are Nemesis Force Weapons (force weapon and daemon bane) and count as Dreadnought CCW. So you get double STR (10) and ignore armor right off the bat. Switching to the Sword to allow the re-rolls, you're dropping down to STR 6 (7 with Hammerhand). And both the Hammer and Great Sword make you lose 1A (no longer wielding 2 of the same special CCW).

25 Points for re-rolls to hit doesn't seem to be worth more to me than the STR 10 and 2d6 Armor Pen. I only count the re-roll to hit because:
Against anything T8 and lower, Str 10 wounds on a 2+
And against AV, Str 10+2d6 Armor Pen gives an 83% chance to pen AV14, will still glace AV12 on a snake-eyes, and auto-pen most rear armor (we are assaulting right?)

The hammer I could see being worth it, 10pts to inflict the extra crew shaken result and drop enemy MC's/IC to I1 next turn, the trade off being losing the +1A from having 2 DCCW.

kryhavok wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Nemesis Great Swords are CCWs, as are Doomfists and Daemon Hammers. You can only gain the benefits of any one CCW at a time.

This is cut and dry.

It's for this reason I personally won't be buying a swords for my NDK. The doom fists are Nemesis Force Weapons (force weapon and daemon bane) and count as Dreadnought CCW. So you get double STR (10) and ignore armor right off the bat...

The doubling of Strength only works for WALKERS. The Nemesis Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature. He'll get a bonus attack for paired weapons and the standard Nemesis effects but not the extra strength. At least for now.

Shenra wrote:Actually you may not purchase both. The codex states that you may only replace ONE doomfist. You may not replace both.

Aye, Shenra is right, you can't even take both to begin with. But even if you could, you couldn't use the effects of both at the same time, as they're still 2 different special close combat weapons.

So this question came up at my store.

Does the Dread Knight Gain the extra attack from having two ccw?

In the Grey Knight Codex is says all nemesis weapons are force weapons.

Force weapons in the BRB count as ccw's.

Doom fist and Great Sword are both force weapons and there for count as x2 ccw's?

And since it's the only monstrous creature that can have x2 ccw's does that mean it gets 4 attacks, 5 on the charge?

@dave_fay
i think they do get the extra attack with either the sword or the hammer, like the furioso dreadnought with its DCCW and its force sword, i know the the dk isnt a walker but in a gw article they said that both the hammer and fists double the strenght.
@kryhavok
you forgot that when equipped with the sword or the hammer the dk still have one nemesis doomfist so you can have the str 10 whe ever you need.

PrimarchX wrote:The doubling of Strength only works for WALKERS. The Nemesis Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature. He'll get a bonus attack for paired weapons and the standard Nemesis effects but not the extra strength. At least for now.

Interesting, I hadn't read it this way. Is there another thread that details these related arguments?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

PrimarchX wrote:The doubling of Strength only works for WALKERS. The Nemesis Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature. He'll get a bonus attack for paired weapons and the standard Nemesis effects but not the extra strength. At least for now.

Interesting, I hadn't read it this way. Is there another thread that details these related arguments?

DoW

There are a few threads that reference it, but I cannot think of any that were explicitly written to discuss it.

Basically it rolls down to the same issue 3rd edition Wraithlords had(back in 3rd they had DCCWs for the fists, S5or6, and MCs did not naturally ignore armor saves); now they are simply S10 MCs.

serotol wrote:@dave_fay
i think they do get the extra attack with either the sword or the hammer, like the furioso dreadnought with its DCCW and its force sword, i know the the dk isnt a walker but in a gw article they said that both the hammer and fists double the strenght.
@kryhavok
you forgot that when equipped with the sword or the hammer the dk still have one nemesis doomfist so you can have the str 10 whe ever you need.

I never read PG 73 as "only pertaining to walkers", but as the definition of rules for a DCCW which the doomfists do indeed follow. If that's true, then in the same box, only walkers get +1A for additional CCW beyond the first (hence the furioso getting the bonus).

Other units must follow the normal rules for CCW. Since they (re: a fist and hammer or fist and sword) are 2 different CCW, no you can't claim the bonus for having the 2. If you keep both fists, then you're using 2 of the same CCW's and get the bonus attack.

And since you have to choose which weapon you're using in a particular turn of combat, you can't have your cake (use the sword) and eat it too (double STR from the doomfist, which is up for debate if the NDK doubles STR or not).

Edit: Added questions to the INAT FAQ thread

PrimarchX wrote:

kryhavok wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Nemesis Great Swords are CCWs, as are Doomfists and Daemon Hammers. You can only gain the benefits of any one CCW at a time.

This is cut and dry.

It's for this reason I personally won't be buying a swords for my NDK. The doom fists are Nemesis Force Weapons (force weapon and daemon bane) and count as Dreadnought CCW. So you get double STR (10) and ignore armor right off the bat...

The doubling of Strength only works for WALKERS. The Nemesis Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature. He'll get a bonus attack for paired weapons and the standard Nemesis effects but not the extra strength. At least for now.

No, DCCWs have no stipulation that they must be used by walkers.

From memory it states it doubles the strength of the walker - so while they can be used by non-walkers they wouldnt double strength.

hmmm, so it does.


another item for the Errata(clearly it's intended to double the Str)

GW failed in the first place for not simply making them power fists.

Powerfists would have made the DK strike at I1. The intent of the DCCW is presumably to gain the double strength bonus while retaining initiative.

It's not like power fists striking at regular initiative haven't been done before.

Jidmah wrote:GW failed in the first place for not simply making them power fists.

No, their intent is crystal clear. In the fluff for the Nemesis Doomfist, it even says that it is a Dreadnought power fist. Claiming the NDF does not function as a DCCW just because the dreadknight is not a "walker" when the intent is crystal clear is, sorry to say, rules lawyering against the spirit of the game. And I will give you precedent from the Tyranid codex:

- Doom of Ma'lantai - he is not a "zoanthrope" even though he has warp field.

- Deathleper - he is not a "lictor". Does that mean his "lictor special rules" doesn't work?

- Swarmlord - he is not a "hive tyrant". That means most of his psychic powers shouldn't work, should they?

I can tell you this much. These have never been FAQ'd but people play them according to the RAI than the RAW because RAW is just so stupid in these cases.

Jidmah wrote:It's not like power fists striking at regular initiative haven't been done before.

I cant from the top of my head think where - Ironclad chainfist strikes at I1