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Hello everyone, so I recently played a battle against a friend. I fielded Abaddon completely surrounded by 7 terminators. My opponent charged them with the sanguinor and sanguinary guard. He said that since there were independant characters in the fight they automatically could be picked out. So he used the Sanguinor to target Abaddon who was not in base contact with him and killed him. I was always under the impression that independant characters could only be picked out if they were in base to base with another independant character, but I didn't see rules for it one way or the other. How does the rule actually work?

Thanks

p. 49: "independent characters are always treateda s a separate single-model unit"

p. 41: Models that were engaged with just one unit must attack that unit. Models engaging more than 1 unit can split their attacks.

p. 35: A model is engaged if it is in base contact with an enemy model or within 2" of a model in their unit that is in base contact with an enemy model.

Since none of your opponent's models were in base contact with Abaddon, Abaddon was not engaged, and therefore could not be attacked.

Alternatively (and this is a rookie question)
Scenario: Drago (yes Drago) joins a group of paladins. Drago and paladins exit a landraider and assault Slaanesh herald. Drago makes physical contact but none of the paladins make physical contact. The [paladins are however in physical contact with Drago.

Can the paladins actually count their attacks in the resulting HTH conflict?

(OT but Drago vs. slaanesh herald on chariot equals very dead herald. Drago vs. follow on charge by nine bloodletters equals six bloodletters the following turn and no wounds on Drago-sigh).

I think he meant that Sanguinor and Abaddon were not in base contact with each other. I would say that if they are both in the cc and Sanguinor is within 2" of Abaddon that Sanguinor could put his attacks towards Abaddon.

Scratch that. Since Sanguinor and Abaddon are independent, they would need to be in base combat.

Biotox wrote:I think he meant that Sanguinor and Abaddon were not in base contact with each other. I would say that if they are both in the cc and Sanguinor is within 2" of Abaddon that Sanguinor could put his attacks towards Abaddon.

Is Sanguinor an independent character or part of the unit?

If he's an independent character, then he has to be in base-to-base contact with Abaddon to target him. If not, then at least one of the squad members must be in base-to-base contact with Abaddon. I read the OP as saying that the terminators surrounded Abaddon, thereby preventing him from being in btb with anyone.

Troy wrote:Drago (yes Drago) joins a group of paladins. Drago and paladins exit a landraider and assault Slaanesh herald. Drago makes physical contact but none of the paladins make physical contact. The [paladins are however in physical contact with Drago.

Can the paladins actually count their attacks in the resulting HTH conflict?

Treat Draigo as a separate unit for purposes of combat. None of the paladins are engaged because no models in their unit are in base-to-base with the herald. Therefore, only Draigo can attack.

It is also possible that during the charge, Draigo teleports into the warp, tears down the Tower of Sorcery, kicks over Khorne's skull throne, gives Slaanesh a talk about safe sex, and returns in time to finish off the herald.

'Cause he's that good.

Biccat is correct, but to expand on it:

Since the Sanguinor can only attack units he is engaged with, and in order to be engaged with a unit you must be in base contact or be within 2" of a model in the same unit that is in base contact (and The Sanguinor is a single-model unit) he would not be able to attack Abaddon, as Abaddon is a separate unit from the Terminators while in assault.

Abbadon should of been in combat anyway.

Page: 49
When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characters that have joined a unit must move before any other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight).

Biotox wrote:Abbadon should of been in combat anyway.

Page: 49
When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characters that have joined a unit must move before any other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight).

But he doesn't have to move into the Sanguinor if the Sanguinary Guards charged first.

Not as simple as that:

GGGGG S

T T T T T
T A T

Very crude drawing, but it is possible that the Guard and Sanguinor got into base contact, and Abaddon did not have room to move between the gaps to get into contact, and the ends of the Terminator line was too long to get around and still only move 6". Despite the FAQ ruling, situations can still occur where an IC can't get into base contact.

somerandomdude wrote:Not as simple as that:

GGGGG S

T T T T T
T A T

Very crude drawing, but it is possible that the Guard and Sanguinor got into base contact, and Abaddon did not have room to move between the gaps to get into contact, and the ends of the Terminator line was too long to get around and still only move 6". Despite the FAQ ruling, situations can still occur where an IC can't get into base contact.

This is how I've always understood it.

As a side question to this, what would happen if Abaddon wasn't able to get into base contact with anyone, and the termies got killed off completely? Is Abaddon still engaged or is he free to move away in his next turn.

If i remember correctly he would have had to been in base contact with him and any other model from the attacking unit would have needed to been in base contact or within 2 inches of a model that was.

zeshin wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Not as simple as that:

GGGGG S

T T T T T
T A T

Very crude drawing, but it is possible that the Guard and Sanguinor got into base contact, and Abaddon did not have room to move between the gaps to get into contact, and the ends of the Terminator line was too long to get around and still only move 6". Despite the FAQ ruling, situations can still occur where an IC can't get into base contact.

This is how I've always understood it.

As a side question to this, what would happen if Abaddon wasn't able to get into base contact with anyone, and the termies got killed off completely? Is Abaddon still engaged or is he free to move away in his next turn.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355176.page

I asked about this already after our game. Heh.

Also if I remember correctly the independents would have needed to move first and every model of their side not in base contact with an enemy would have gotten out of their way to let them.

The Sanguinor is not an independant character. He is a unit consisting of one model.

biccat, ninja and overkongen basicly pointed out everthing correct.

1. Abbadon has to get into base contact if possible, you even must move his own unit out of the way to allow him to do that.
2. The Sanguinor is not an IC and may thus not join the Sanguine Guard(or any other unit), or be joined by a IC.
3. Models must attack units they are in base contact with. Only models not in base contact with anything, but 2" within a model that is b2b with the IC, may attack him without base conact. Note that during assault as many models as possible have to make base contact with something. No piling up on an IC and ignoring the unit.

I have another question regarding independent characters and assaults:
A unit (A) with an independent character is assaulted by 2 enemy units (B and C).
Only unit B is in base contact with the character.
Most of unit A is killed, but the remaining models die because they are fearless (the character makes his saves).

Would unit C still be in combat.
Would unit C have to make a pile in move towards the character (who should now be his own unit as he is no longer is part of unit A).
Would it make a difference if 6" would not be enough for a model in unit C to get in base contact with the character.

The BRB states you MUSt move models in your unit out the way to make sure an IC makes contact with an enemy unit. So Abaddon would have been in combat.

However he could have chosen, most likely, whether to go in BtB with the Sanguinor or the Guard. If he was not in BtB with the Sanguinor, he could NOT have been attacked by the Sanguinor.

Kevin949 wrote:

zeshin wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Not as simple as that:

GGGGG S

T T T T T
T A T

Very crude drawing, but it is possible that the Guard and Sanguinor got into base contact, and Abaddon did not have room to move between the gaps to get into contact, and the ends of the Terminator line was too long to get around and still only move 6". Despite the FAQ ruling, situations can still occur where an IC can't get into base contact.

This is how I've always understood it.

As a side question to this, what would happen if Abaddon wasn't able to get into base contact with anyone, and the termies got killed off completely? Is Abaddon still engaged or is he free to move away in his next turn.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355176.page

I asked about this already after our game. Heh.

Ah, missed that altogether. Thanks.

Okay, to clear something else up, The Sanguinor charged the termies first then the guard followed immediately after, since the Sanguinor charged first does that mean Abaddon moves the termies out of the way to get into B2B with him and then the termies surround him too, then the Sanguinary guard move in? Would this scenario be different if say there was no Sanguinor but the Guard had an independant character like a captain or priest?

Make all assault moves, then make all Defenders react moves.

See BRB page 33; there is a lovely flow-chart for the assault phase, conveniently titled "Assault Phase Summary"; all the rules are detailed in the following 9 pages(not including page 33). the further rules for ICs and how they assault/React/nd Pile-in are on page 49.

The order the opponent charges has NO bearing on how you must "defenders react"

Abaddon HAS to try to get into btb with an enemy model, but he is not required to bast the Sanguinor UNLESS that is the only possible model he can get into base with

Remember that, since the FAQ, this means you MUST move the surrounding terminators out of the way to let Abaddon through.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember that, since the FAQ, this means you MUST move the surrounding terminators out of the way to let Abaddon through.

Assuming they still have to make Defenders React moves:

Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is
reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move,
must move before other friendly models to attempt to get
in base contact with an enemy. What happens if the
Independent Character is blocked from getting to enemy
models by friendly models around him? (p49)
A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the way
to make space for the Independent Character then they
must move first. Followed by the Independent Character
and finally the rest of the unit can move. If the
Independent Character is still unable to make it into base
contact he must move as close to the enemy as possible.

The question is about the order of Defenders React moves. The way it used to be, if the IC was surrounded, and the IC "has to move first" (according to the rulebook) but can't, then you move the guys blocking him first. If the Terminators are already in base contact, though, then you can't make a Defenders React move with them.

even hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+ with rerolls to hit and wound I am surprised his 5+1 attacks made it through abadons 4++ before he got to strike. Unlikely stuff.

But right, in the situation you desribed abadon would have had to move into combat with someone, and if the sanguir was not in BtB he would not have been able to attack him.

Somer - the suggestion was the Termies were surrounding Abaddon, and the chances are that a 6" charge isnt going to surround that many terminators, getting all of them in btb.