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Under Dashofpepper's guide where he illustrates parking his raider to create a funnel against the opposing rhino, he is trying to limit the number of marines that can attack.

My question is, can the "un-used" marines multi-assault back into the Raider that is parked there? In his example, they are moved base to base (at least it looks that way on Vassal) with the Raider.

Not sure if this is legal or not.

Green is Best! wrote:Under Dashofpepper's guide where he illustrates parking his raider to create a funnel against the opposing rhino, he is trying to limit the number of marines that can attack.

My question is, can the "un-used" marines multi-assault back into the Raider that is parked there? In his example, they are moved base to base (at least it looks that way on Vassal) with the Raider.

Not sure if this is legal or not.

no, the marines can only move into base to base with the unit that assaulted them. They cannot engaged other unengaged units including vehicles

Green is Best! wrote:Under Dashofpepper's guide where he illustrates parking his raider to create a funnel against the opposing rhino, he is trying to limit the number of marines that can attack.

My question is, can the "un-used" marines multi-assault back into the Raider that is parked there? In his example, they are moved base to base (at least it looks that way on Vassal) with the Raider.

Not sure if this is legal or not.

I would think not because after the wyches assault the marines, they are locked in combat.
And the first bullet point on page 33 under 'Disallowed Assauts' says unit may not assault if they are locked in close combat.
And defender react and pile in moves may not be used to contact units not involved in the assault as well.

But, in this unique case, after the pile in moves have been met, would it be allowable if a model ended up in base to base contact with the Raider, and could not swing at the wyches because it is outside of 2" with a friendly model in combat with the wyches?

And defender react and pile in moves may not be used to contact units not involved in the assault as well.

But in this case, following the pile in rules would force you into base contact with the unegaged model. Or, are you saying that in addition to the other rules of piling in, the marines would also have to stay 1" away from the Raider?

(not being snarky, don't have rulebook in front of me)

Green is Best! wrote:
But in this case, following the pile in rules would force you into base contact with the unegaged model. Or, are you saying that in addition to the other rules of piling in, the marines would also have to stay 1" away from the Raider?

(not being snarky, don't have rulebook in front of me)

The marines would not necessarily have to stay 1" away from the raider.
The rules state you can only move within 1" of an enemy unit as an assault move and both defender react and pile in moves follow the rules for moving assaulting models.
However, the marines would not be able to move into base contact with or assault the raider, since both of these are strictly prohibited as long as they are locked in combat with only the wyches.

Green is Best! wrote:But, in this unique case, after the pile in moves have been met, would it be allowable if a model ended up in base to base contact with the Raider, and could not swing at the wyches because it is outside of 2" with a friendly model in combat with the wyches?

And defender react and pile in moves may not be used to contact units not involved in the assault as well.

But in this case, following the pile in rules would force you into base contact with the unegaged model. Or, are you saying that in addition to the other rules of piling in, the marines would also have to stay 1" away from the Raider?

(not being snarky, don't have rulebook in front of me)

yes they have to stay away from any unengaged models, including enemy vehicles. The only way to get into contact with an unegaged model is to assault it in your turn or to be assaulted by it in your oppoennts turn.

time wizard wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:
But in this case, following the pile in rules would force you into base contact with the unegaged model. Or, are you saying that in addition to the other rules of piling in, the marines would also have to stay 1" away from the Raider?

(not being snarky, don't have rulebook in front of me)

The marines would not necessarily have to stay 1" away from the raider.
The rules state you can only move within 1" of an enemy unit as an assault move and both defender react and pile in moves follow the rules for moving assaulting models.
However, the marines would not be able to move into base contact with or assault the raider, since both of these are strictly prohibited as long as they are locked in combat with only the wyches.

Actually, reread defenders react. It happens after all assault moves have been made, so yes, they would still have to stay 1" away form the raider for defender's react.

Pile in cannot be used to contact units not already in the assault, so they would also have to stay once again 1" away as the only time you are allowed within 1" of an enemy unit is when you are assaulting.

Galador wrote: so they would also have to stay once again 1" away as the only time you are allowed within 1" of an enemy unit is when you are assaulting.

Interesting if true. I didn't know that bit. I thought that pile in moves could move within 1" of enemy units not involved in the assault, but not get into base contact. If you can't move within 1" of enemy models during defender react that aren't part of the assault....that makes some interesting and inventive uses of tank shocking to create columns.

Imagine a unit of ork boyz getting tank shocked and herded into a column or a V shape, (2 vehicles would be enough, one on each side) with a lone ork out front that gets assaulted, and no other model able to get into base contact. It would take some practice....but two raiders with shock prows could actually make a unit of 30 boyz only able to have two orks attack - the one in base contact, and the one in 2" coherency of him.

Galador wrote:
Actually, reread defenders react. It happens after all assault moves have been made, so yes, they would still have to stay 1" away form the raider for defender's react.

Pile in cannot be used to contact units not already in the assault, so they would also have to stay once again 1" away as the only time you are allowed within 1" of an enemy unit is when you are assaulting.

'Defenders React' page 34, third paragraph, "These models can move up to 6" in an attempt to move into base contact with an enemy. This follows the same rules as moving assaulting models, except that models are not slowed by difficult terrain and do not take dangerous terrain tests."

'Pile-In!' page 40 second paragraph, "This follows the same rules as moving assaulting models, except that it is not slowed by difficult terrain and does not trigger dangerous terrain tests."

'Moving Assaulting Models' page 34, "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models."
{All emphasis mine}

So defender react and pile in moves can be made within 1" of an enemy unit, but the model still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, through gaps narrower that their bases, or into base contact with an unengaged model.

Well that settles that, but still leaves some interesting tank-shocking options with narrow-prowed vehicles to deny attacks. I'm going to have to explore this more.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Imagine a unit of ork boyz getting tank shocked and herded into a column or a V shape, (2 vehicles would be enough, one on each side) with a lone ork out front that gets assaulted, and no other model able to get into base contact. It would take some practice....but two raiders with shock prows could actually make a unit of 30 boyz only able to have two orks attack - the one in base contact, and the one in 2" coherency of him.

This is the way we've always played it---I think one of my friends that played Orks even referred to it as the "Rhino crunch". Usually though, I used it to flamer between the two rhinos---then on his turn when he would multi-assault my 12" moving Rhinos/and single marine he could base---I would probably take a wound--auto fall back---he can't get within 6"---I would auto-rally, move up and do it again.

Didn't happen too frequently though.

Well, let's say we just did the new Dashofpepper DarkEldar Rhino crunch of death maneuver and pinned in a 30 model squad of boyz, leaving only one ork to swing back.

Let's say the lone ork dies, how do you resolve the mess now that the marjority of the units are on opposite sides, but still have to technically pilie in and assault?

And, to make it even laughable, what would happen if we
a. immobilise the vehicles the following turn
b. both players go in the same direction around the vehicles, effectively playing ring around the rhinos as they continue the assault?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Imagine a unit of ork boyz getting tank shocked and herded into a column or a V shape, (2 vehicles would be enough, one on each side) with a lone ork out front that gets assaulted, and no other model able to get into base contact. It would take some practice....but two raiders with shock prows could actually make a unit of 30 boyz only able to have two orks attack - the one in base contact, and the one in 2" coherency of him.

There may be only 1. The vehicles themselves are more than 2" apart. You could effectively isolate the ork by himself. It would not have to be 2 vehicles either. It could be table edge, terrain, etc. Of course, if I saw you try this I would probably try to death or glory against you, especially with lighter armored raiders.

Ok, then here is the question for you time, if you can do that, what happens at the end of the assault phase, you are still within one inch of the models that aren't in the combat?

For example, what if the DE assault with 30 boyz between 2 raiders, and the boyz lose but pile in is done, and the Raiders are surrounded (almost) due to the boyz moving as close as possible?? Now it is the Orks movement phase, and they have models within 1" of another unit that is not engaged in an assault..... which is a violation of the rules at this point. What then??

Also, it states in movement you cannot move to within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting, not following the same rules as assaulting models. Also, if you look at the rules for assaulting models, it states they follow the same rules as movement in the movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. It then goes on to list the ways to move them.

IMHO, you may be moving like assaulting units, but since you cannot get into B2B with anyone not already in the combat when you pile in and defenders react, you must still follow the movement rules of staying 1" away. Granted that is my opinion, and how I feel RAI is, so don't quote me as a rules source on that one!

There is no rule against being within an inch of an enemy model.

kirsanth wrote:There is no rule against being within an inch of an enemy model.

EDIT: Remove the following...{...in the assault phase.} You are right Kirsanth. Read that as moving, not being!
@Galador - I agree that you can't move within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase.
That said, there is nothing that says you can't be within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase.

In an assault with a vehicle for example, at the end of a round of combat there's no combat reslolution and the models are free to simply move away from each other in subsequent turns.

Same for the above discussion.
It would have been far simpler (and clearer) if the rules stated you could only move within 1" of a model from a unit you were assaulting, but unfortunately it does not.
That leaves the door open. Particularly when the rule continues with the prohibitions listed saying you cannot move through other models, or through small gaps, or into base contact with a unit you wren't assuaulting.

So in Dash's tactics, the marines could move within 1" of the raider but could not move into base contact with it.
If, instead of the raider it was another non-vehicle unit, the marines could still move within 1" of them as well (but not in base to base) but this would leave the marines open to being assaulted by that other unit in the oppoent's turn.
Which I would be very happy to oblige!

Dashofpepper wrote:
Imagine a unit of ork boyz getting tank shocked and herded into a column or a V shape, (2 vehicles would be enough, one on each side) with a lone ork out front that gets assaulted, and no other model able to get into base contact. It would take some practice....but two raiders with shock prows could actually make a unit of 30 boyz only able to have two orks attack - the one in base contact, and the one in 2" coherency of him.

A crafty opponent would realize what you're doing and probably not spread his guys out in maximum coherency after one of the tank shocks.

So it'd just be a pile of guys of 2 units who only have 2 models in base contact with each other.