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A squad of 8 (total) zerkers including a champ with fiist and a rhino with extra armor is 258 points. Where as for 10 CSM with mark of khorne and 2 meltaguns with a champ/fist and a rhino with extra armor is 290 points.

Which troop is better... in a mainly assult army, Im thinking 4 of either troop and 9 oblitz with 2 lash princes.

by far, no comparison, berzerkers. Khorne berzerkers are about as nasty as CSM can do in CC. Most things you'll face will fear these. They are also cheaper and more efficient than regular CSM. If you REALLY want to do reg CSM, then i suggest: 10 CSM Champ w/ a PF, 2 meltaguns, IoCG in a Rhino. But cult troops are better in almost every way possible, specifically KBs, and PMs.

Meltaguns are key. I'd say at least 2 CSM squads, max 2 Zerks. Berserkers definitely hit harder, though, and are Fearless. If you face IG Psyker Battle Squads a lot the Fearless can be a big deal.

Don't forget combi-meltas on the Rhinos.

For Zerkers, you are paying a bit more for a model with the following benefits over regular CSMs:

+1 WS, +1 A, Furious Charge, Fearless.

You are losing a bit of flexibility when it comes to weapon choice with vanilla CSMs having more to choose from, but you should take the Zerkers unless points do become an issue, in which case then regular CSMs with stripped options becomes cheaper and preferred (You can shave off about 40 points going champless and without a fist, and some points on the extra armor).

What I normally do because I have trouble with mech army I have chosen in rhinos roll up the zerkers and use 4 meltas, destroy a tank and the zerkers run in.
I think Im going to change up the list a little and run about 4 zerker squads and 3 havocs with all melta and 3 chosne with all meltas and 2 princes. Have the chosen outflank and all those fething havocs rolling up.. goddamn. The main reason I considered the reg CSM so I have a anti tank weapon always with my assult squads.

What do you guys think?

Berzerkers all the way. And drop the extra armor on the Rhino, it's overpriced and about useless.

Why not love for Enhanced Marines?

For +3 points, you get the double special goodness of CSM, plus the Strength 5 of Zerkers no matter what. If you get lucky, strength 6 even.

Bile himself sucks, but hey, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

odorofdeath wrote:Why not love for Enhanced Marines?

For +3 points, you get the double special goodness of CSM, plus the Strength 5 of Zerkers no matter what. If you get lucky, strength 6 even.

Bile himself sucks, but hey, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

+2 melta guns +Fearless so they don't need an IOCG freeing them up for another icon.

10 of them with IoK + 2 melta guns=same price as 10 barebones zerkers. The zerkers are still better on the charge, but the enhanced marines are better if they get charged and/or in round 2 of combat, plus they don't have melta which is a real deal killer.

Another perk of enhanced marines is they are natural S5 so the Pfist is S10 instead of 9.

The big disadvantage of straight Berzerkers has always been the inability to pop transports because they lack Meltaguns.
Now if you can resolve this issue with other units like Obliterators and Termicide, straight Berzerkers would be a better choice however Chaos struggles with popping transports compared to newer armies due to the lack of viable fast attack options and/or expensive long range fire support. We have no Rifledreads or Speeders or cheap Predators and free heavy weapons in squads so we are forced to rely on troop choices for dismounting infantry and destroying vehicles.

minigun762 wrote:The big disadvantage of straight Berzerkers has always been the inability to pop transports because they lack Meltaguns.
Now if you can resolve this issue with other units like Obliterators and Termicide, straight Berzerkers would be a better choice however Chaos struggles with popping transports compared to newer armies due to the lack of viable fast attack options and/or expensive long range fire support. We have no Rifledreads or Speeders or cheap Predators and free heavy weapons in squads so we are forced to rely on troop choices for dismounting infantry and destroying vehicles.

Well, chosen are really good at fire support, sure they take up elite slots, but they have IMHO the best possible selection of weapons. Oh, they cost less than cult marines, and they have infiltrate.

I'll admit that I too have been thinking of the Khorne CSMs as a happy middle ground. I feel like of all the bonuses that Berzerkers get, the +1A might be the single most valuable as its always there and it has the biggest impact on the embedded Power Fist which is often the heart and soul of the squad's HtH punch (pun intended )

Bringing your own Meltaguns as well as 4 S8 Power Fist swings on the charge is a pretty decent way to rip apart most squads out there and the extra S4 attacks from the little guys will help even the odds against basic infantry.

notabot187 wrote:
Well, chosen are really good at fire support, sure they take up elite slots, but they have IMHO the best possible selection of weapons. Oh, they cost less than cult marines, and they have infiltrate.

In the CSM Codex, can you *really* say that taking up an elite slot is a disadvantage?

Especially given that, assuming you bothered with elites at all, you're basically choosing between termicide and infiltrating chosen, both of which are more or less there to do the same job?

Yeah Ive never tired termicide, but chosen work well....

The hard part is for 4 term with 3 combi meltas chain fist and heavy flamer is only 155 points, you can add a fifth term with combi melta for 190 total.

For Chosen with 3 meltas 2 flamer and a rhino its 165.

I can't decide between the two, any advice?

CannedKhorne wrote:Yeah Ive never tired termicide, but chosen work well....

The hard part is for 4 term with 3 combi meltas chain fist and heavy flamer is only 155 points, you can add a fifth term with combi melta for 190 total.

For Chosen with 3 meltas 2 flamer and a rhino its 165.

I can't decide between the two, any advice?

Termicide is 3 Terminators with combi-plasma/meltas depending on what you want them to kill, which comes out at 105pts per unit; chainfists and and heavy flamer are unnecessary, especially the chainfist; it's called termicide because you won't normally live past your opponent's next turn, so taking weapons that depend on you not dying is like going out in a rainstorm without an umbrella, you're hoping that the rain will ease or stop when it's not very likely to happen at all.

Berzerkers all the way. And drop the extra armor on the Rhino, it's overpriced and about useless.

Yes, drop the upgrade that means you can still keep moving if you get stunned, it's not like you're carrying a unit that need to reach the enemy as soon as possible... oh shi-

Yeah, but which do you think is better for a rhino rush zerker army?

Termicide or chosen?

Zerkers. They are way better in CC and usually aren't as feared as they should be. Throw a squad of 'em in a Land Raider and it's like throwing a brick at your opponent.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Zerkers. They are way better in CC and usually aren't as feared as they should be. Throw a squad of 'em in a Land Raider and it's like throwing a brick at your opponent.

Drawback is that you're using one of our Heavy slots which is where the best support options for Chaos are.

minigun762 wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Zerkers. They are way better in CC and usually aren't as feared as they should be. Throw a squad of 'em in a Land Raider and it's like throwing a brick at your opponent.

Drawback is that you're using one of our Heavy slots which is where the best support options for Chaos are.

if you have a termicide unit you can grab it as a dedicated transport, just need to load the zerkers into it on turn1

Bezerkers are crazy.
I 5 on the charge, with 4 attacks each and strenth 5... afraid, very afraid
the bezerkers can handle most vechiles with thier assualting with krak grenades.

Why Krak gernades? just attacks rapes anything rear AV10....

Everyone please go check out my new list on 40k List Forum....

minigun762 wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Zerkers. They are way better in CC and usually aren't as feared as they should be. Throw a squad of 'em in a Land Raider and it's like throwing a brick at your opponent.

Drawback is that you're using one of our Heavy slots which is where the best support options for Chaos are.

Yeah, but they can assault out of it. An 18 inch threat range is something that won't exactly be good for your opponents.

You're right but you still need something to open up the transport first otherwise you'll be wasting your charge on popping the transport and the guys inside will fry your ass.

Predaking wrote:

minigun762 wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Zerkers. They are way better in CC and usually aren't as feared as they should be. Throw a squad of 'em in a Land Raider and it's like throwing a brick at your opponent.

Drawback is that you're using one of our Heavy slots which is where the best support options for Chaos are.

if you have a termicide unit you can grab it as a dedicated transport, just need to load the zerkers into it on turn1

don't they have to be deployed with their dedicated transport? Which would mean they couldnt deep strike.

whitedragon wrote:Berzerkers all the way. And drop the extra armor on the Rhino, it's overpriced and about useless.

Do this. Don't worry if your opponent gets a 2 on the VDT. I mean after all, the zerkers/CSM are made for shooting anyway. And the rhino is just there for looks.

It's about a 43% cost increase to shrug off 16% of damage table results. For a Storm Raven or Land Raider, Extra Armor makes sense. For a cheap Rhino in an army full of cheap Rhinos, it doesn't.

Bear in mind that they might be cheap Rhinos but the cargo they're holding relies on getting to the enemy near-enough unscathed, and can't afford to spend 2-3 turns footslogging because their rhino is just getting chain-stunned.

Avatar 720 wrote:Bear in mind that they might be cheap Rhinos but the cargo they're holding relies on getting to the enemy near-enough unscathed, and can't afford to spend 2-3 turns footslogging because their rhino is just getting chain-stunned.

it wont get chain stunned. Eventually one of those results will be immobilized.

The solution is buying more Rhinos with multiple, smaller squads, so at least some will reach your opponent. Those that don't can hold objectives and counter charge.

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Bear in mind that they might be cheap Rhinos but the cargo they're holding relies on getting to the enemy near-enough unscathed, and can't afford to spend 2-3 turns footslogging because their rhino is just getting chain-stunned.

it wont get chain stunned. Eventually one of those results will be immobilized.

Surely you can't say that without first being able to see into the future? It's like saying a Land Raider won't get chain stunned and eventually one of those results will be wrecked, you cannot know that it will happen that way.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Bear in mind that they might be cheap Rhinos but the cargo they're holding relies on getting to the enemy near-enough unscathed, and can't afford to spend 2-3 turns footslogging because their rhino is just getting chain-stunned.

it wont get chain stunned. Eventually one of those results will be immobilized.

Surely you can't say that without first being able to see into the future? It's like saying a Land Raider won't get chain stunned and eventually one of those results will be wrecked, you cannot know that it will happen that way.

Chain-stun usually comes from mass glancing hits, but can come from pens. Still from both glances and pens immobilized is just as likely as stunned. Shaken happens a lot though.