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Hi, I've been playing Tau for a few years now and Have decided for a change of list, I want to use this list to play Vets at my local GW, Any Ways To improve?

HQ:

Shas'o Firestorm 132
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Shield, H/W Multi Tracker

2 Bodyguard 176
Plasma Rifles, Burst Cannons, Shields, H/W Multi Trackers

Troops:

12 Fire Warriors 160
Shas'ui, Marker Drone

12 Fire Warriors 120

15 Kroot 121
10 Carnivores, Shaper, 5 Hunds

Elites:

6 Stealthsuits 180

Fast Attack:

8 Pathfinders 191
Shas'ui, Devilfish, Disruptiojn Pod

Heavy Support:

3 Broadsides 250
2 Shield Drones, 2 Target Locks

Hammerhead 165
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi, Disruption Pod

Tactics For This List:

Pathfinders Will Deploy outside of the fish and let the 12 man no upgrade FW team to get in and drive off, either targeting a weaker unit in kill points or moving towards and objective in C&C Or Seize Ground, Pathfinders can then mark targets for infiltrating stealth unit, making them hit on 2's and reducing either cover save or ld if a morale is needed to be taken.

Broadsides can easily take transports against armies such as DE or Orks, they can also easily take a Land Raider,

Hammerhead's Primary Role Will Be AI, but against armies such as DE in turns 1 and 2 I can use the solid shot to pop more tanks.

Crisis With Commander Will Be DS'ing, In my games with Tau keeping my crisis back, no matter what type, be it Deathrain, Fireknife, never seems to be effective, DS'ing is a much more useful way to get the best out of my 20 point Plasma rifles, Pathfinders could also assist the bodyguard helping them hit better which is great against termies or MEQ's.

The Marker FW squad will sit back with the pathfinders and broadsides. They'll just be shooting what they need to. people say a marker drone isn't worth it but many times I have been saved from a morale/pinning check because of it and the markerlight has hit most of the time.

Any Tips?

Need either dumbfish or warfish for both fire warrior squads.

Shield generators are horrible. Don't use them. Shield drones are cheaper and give you an extra wound. (And sometimes, you shouldn't even use them)

Unless I'm actually doing a farsight bomb, I don't give my suits shields because they aren't worth saving (for the points of shields in any variety) from high-powered weaponry.

Take you commander down from an 'O to an 'el and give him a targeting array. Its a cheaper way to get the same results.

Take your bodygaurds, and make them a normal crisis suit unit, and get rid of those shields.

Markerdrones are completely overpriced, never ever get them. (Unless you are doing a SMT... which isn't that good at all anyways.)

Get rid of the shield drones and target locks on your broadsides. Give them all A.S.S., and then have a team leader with a TL and 2 Shield drones.

Your hammerhead needs a target lock so those burst cannon shots aren't wasted on tanks.

I would personally suggest to get rid of the stealth suits. They aren't good for their points cost, and their function in the Tau army is filled by your kroot and fire warriors.

I'd upgrade your D-fish to a Warfish (having SMS/TA/MT/DPs), and possibly getting another pathfinder unit with the same.

+1 to The Bringer with a few exceptions.

I take the burst cannons on Hammerheads because it's the cheapest option, not because I intend to use them. 18" is far too close (especially since the dispod is your best defense @ 12" or greater).

Lately... The warfish seems situational at best to me. SMS is worth it for killpoint denial I suppose. I wish they could take burst cannons for cheap points like Hammerheads, thats neither here nor there.

The Bringer wrote:Shield generators are horrible. Don't use them. Shield drones are cheaper and give you an extra wound. (And sometimes, you shouldn't even use them)

Shield Generators for me are well worth the points, they have saved me countless times, from power fists or power weapons to the Battlecannons and the Demolisher Cannons. Shields are really useful on my suits as it makes them more durable against Plasma and rending weapons. Once the shield drones are gone you get no more invs so i dont see the point in having them with the crisi.

The Bringer wrote:Take you commander down from an 'O to an 'el and give him a targeting array. Its a cheaper way to get the same results.

My Commander never seems to die with 4 wounds and it has been well worth taking him this way in my games, it has paid off and has returned more than the upgrade is worth.

The Bringer wrote:Take your bodygaurds, and make them a normal crisis suit unit, and get rid of those shields.

Problem with that is i can't give them hard wired stuff or extra wargear, such as a targetting array, and then a h/w multi tracker and drone controller.

The Bringer wrote:Markerdrones are completely overpriced, never ever get them. (Unless you are doing a SMT... which isn?'t that good at all anyways.)

I'd agree on that, 30 points for 1/2 a chance to hit on 3's is expensive. I could take 2 gun drones instead?

The Bringer wrote:Get rid of the shield drones and target locks on your broadsides. Give them all A.S.S., and then have a team leader with a TL and 2 Shield drones.

My Broadsides never seem to move as i either start them in a Building or on a hill, so they normally see most vehicles as during the games i the vehicles normally get tyo my side of the board pretty quickly.

The Bringer wrote:Your hammerhead needs a target lock so those burst cannon shots aren't wasted on tanks.

The Hammerhead's primary role is Anti - Infantry, so those burst cannons will be firing at the target that the subunission is, it will only be used as Anti Tank if my Broadsides fail to do the job.

The Bringer wrote:I would personally suggest to get rid of the stealth suits. They aren't good for their points cost, and their function in the Tau army is filled by your kroot and fire warriors

Yeah, I filled them in because i didnt know what to spend the rest of the points on

The Bringer wrote:I'd upgrade your D-fish to a Warfish (having SMS/TA/MT/DPs), and possibly getting another pathfinder unit with the same.

I could do that if i drop the stealthsuits, and i could use the fish for the other FW squad if i don't have Gun Drones with them.

I wouldn't go with gundrones in the place of markerlights... I would just forget about the DC.

If you really want shields, go with shield drones. They give you extra wounds as well as the shield, and for a cheaper price. And, if you actually do fail your save with them, at least your suits won't get ID-ed.

Points filler is always a very bad idea. Get more crisis suits if you have extra points, and if you still have extra when your elites are filled, go with some pathfinders.

If your broadsides don't move that much, give them targeting arrays instead.

The only time I ever take anything defensive is for my broadsides, because they are so many points compared to crisis suits it is actually worth it to give them shield drones (but I only take it when they are in units of 3).

It seems like you are too worried with losing units... units will die, and going and spending a load of points to keep them alive isn't really at all worth it. Taking your list: minimizing your crisis suits, taking out filler, and taking out defensive upgrades will give you so much more firepower, and give you a list like this:

HQ:

Shas'el Fireknife 87
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi Tracker

Elites

Fireknife Suits (3)
186 Points

Firestorm Suits (2)
100 Points

Firestorm Suits (2)
100 Points

Troops:

12 Fire Warriors 120

12 Fire Warriors 120

15 Kroot 121
10 Carnivores, Shaper, 5 Hounds

Fast Attack:

8 Pathfinders
Warfish
216 Points


Heavy Support:

3 Broadsides
Targeting Arrays, Team Leader w/ 2 Shield Drones + Target Lock
-280 Points

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi, Disruption Pod
-165 Points

1495 Points

The Bringer wrote:I wouldn't go with gundrones in the place of markerlights... I would just forget about the DC.

If you really want shields, go with shield drones. They give you extra wounds as well as the shield, and for a cheaper price. And, if you actually do fail your save with them, at least your suits won't get ID-ed.

Points filler is always a very bad idea. Get more crisis suits if you have extra points, and if you still have extra when your elites are filled, go with some pathfinders.

If your broadsides don't move that much, give them targeting arrays instead.

The only time I ever take anything defensive is for my broadsides, because they are so many points compared to crisis suits it is actually worth it to give them shield drones (but I only take it when they are in units of 3).

It seems like you are too worried with losing units... units will die, and going and spending a load of points to keep them alive isn't really at all worth it. Taking your list: minimizing your crisis suits, taking out filler, and taking out defensive upgrades will give you so much more firepower, and give you a list like this:

HQ:

Shas'el Fireknife 87
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi Tracker

Elites

Fireknife Suits (3)
186 Points

Firestorm Suits (2)
100 Points

Firestorm Suits (2)
100 Points

Troops:

12 Fire Warriors 120

12 Fire Warriors 120

15 Kroot 121
10 Carnivores, Shaper, 5 Hounds

Fast Attack:

8 Pathfinders
Warfish
216 Points


Heavy Support:

3 Broadsides
Targeting Arrays, Team Leader w/ 2 Shield Drones + Target Lock
-280 Points

Hammerhead
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi, Disruption Pod
-165 Points

1495 Points

This looks like a nice list, but my broadsides seem to do fine without targets as about 2 if not all of them hit per turn and it is usually enough to take the tank.

On the Crisis, Would it be good to have TL Plasmas with Targets? Hitting on 3's with re-rolls then killing marines on 2's will do lots of damage if they're in rapid fire range, then they can jump 6" in the assault phase to get out of range.

TL Plasma costs so much more for what you get. Save the points and spend it elsewhere on more guns.

Now if they let you take TWO plasma rifles.. well... I wouldn't take any other gun.

Cottonjaw wrote:TL Plasma costs so much more for what you get. Save the points and spend it elsewhere on more guns.

Now if they let you take TWO plasma rifles.. well... I wouldn't take any other gun.

Definatley, if normal crisis could have 2 plasma, a targetting array and a h/w multi tracker they would be one of the best units in the game, better than tactical marines in every way, shooting, combat, wounds. A very tough unit indeed

Yeah but they would also cost like... 80 points each...

Cottonjaw wrote:Yeah but they would also cost like... 80 points each...

Yep, but hopefully the new tau codex will do us justice, all the new armies are becoming way OP, we need to become better value for points because atm, stealthsuits are way overpriced, should be about 24 points each maybe, or even 22 looking at their stats.

It would do a lot of damage, but it so expensive! 65 points for .74/1.48 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn... I'm actually kind of shocked at this. I math-hammered the MEQ/points ratio, and that's better than helios!

But really, 6 fire warriors would do more damage for less points. 1/2 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn.

Sniper Drone Teams will kill 1.53 marines a turn, with a chance to pin, and at long range...

Looking at all this, your best option is really to go with mass fire warriors, with devilfish possibly.

The killy per points ratio for the TL PR/TA suits is 2.27
The killy per points ratio for Warfish w/ 12 Fire warriors is 2.10

So, I think that using large amounts of fire warriors in devilfish is a viable tactic... go figure... but mathhammer never lies!

The Bringer wrote:It would do a lot of damage, but it so expensive! 65 points for .74/1.48 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn... I'm actually kind of shocked at this. I math-hammered the MEQ/points ratio, and that's better than helios!

But really, 6 fire warriors would do more damage for less points. 1/2 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn.

Sniper Drone Teams will kill 1.53 marines a turn, with a chance to pin, and at long range...

Looking at all this, your best option is really to go with mass fire warriors, with devilfish possibly.

The killy per points ratio for the TL PR/TA suits is 2.27
The killy per points ratio for Warfish w/ 12 Fire warriors is 2.10

So, I think that using large amounts of fire warriors in devilfish is a viable tactic... go figure... but mathhammer never lies!

So In my list i could have 3 Crisis including my commander, then fill the rest of my points with another squad of 12 FW's in a fish, so i can keep one squad outside of a fish at the back so i do get some shots rather than wasting 120 points worth of S5 shots in a vehicle doing nothing.

So 2 squads of 12 in a fish could either take flanks, rapid firing those weaker units or those with less number, then they will attract the attention of the enemy keeping them at arm's length. and if the enemy don't attack them then they can claim objectives or get into cover depending on the game type (or both) while the fish could act as fire support until they are weakened enough that i could put them back in the fish to protect them.

idk if anyone has mentioned this yet but that sharper of yours seems like a waste of points that could go somewhere else for you

The Bringer wrote:But really, 6 fire warriors would do more damage for less points. 1/2 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn.

So I didn't check all of your mathhammer, but this caught my eye and I feel the need to point out it is incorrect (I wish FWs were that good...)

6 FWs = 6 shots x .5hit = 3 hits x.66wound = 2 wounds x.33fail save = .66 dead marines for non rapid fire. ~1.3 for rapid fire.

If you were using fuzzy mathahammer you may wanna recheck those last figures.

Bleh - I got that wrong, I think I missed the to wound probability

Still though, that will put fire warriors just under the TL PR + TA suits for the killy to points ratio.

I know I'm one of the few Tau players who would ever say this but kroot are actually pretty terrible. As assault troops go, marines will chew them to pieces. As far as bubble wrapping goes, you want a minimum sized squad and don't even bother with a shaper or hounds. For the points though, FWs are a better option. Don't replace them with suits or pathfinders because you still need a good number of troops choices.

As far as broadsides are concerned, I prefer the following approach:
1 team leader w/ TA, HW TL
2 other suits, one w/ TA, one with TL
gives you the advantage of being able to shoot at 3 different targets with at least most of your shots BS4
Just stick them in terrain the cover save should give them good enough survivability. If you think you need extra protection, pop a HW DC and 2 shield drones on the team leader

Problem with that is i can't give them hard wired stuff or extra wargear, such as a targetting array, and then a h/w multi tracker and drone controller.

Actually, if you upgrade one to a Team Leader (for 5 points if my memory serves me right), that one has access to the wargear

The Bringer wrote:It would do a lot of damage, but it so expensive! 65 points for .74/1.48 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn... I'm actually kind of shocked at this. I math-hammered the MEQ/points ratio, and that's better than helios!

But really, 6 fire warriors would do more damage for less points. 1/2 (non/rapid fire) dead marines a turn.

Sniper Drone Teams will kill 1.53 marines a turn, with a chance to pin, and at long range...

Looking at all this, your best option is really to go with mass fire warriors, with devilfish possibly.

The killy per points ratio for the TL PR/TA suits is 2.27
The killy per points ratio for Warfish w/ 12 Fire warriors is 2.10

So, I think that using large amounts of fire warriors in devilfish is a viable tactic... go figure... but mathhammer never lies!

What the math hammer misses, is that Plasma Rifles ignore Feel No Pain, and kill just as many Terminators as they do Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Sanguinis wrote:I know I'm one of the few Tau players who would ever say this but kroot are actually pretty terrible. As assault troops go, marines will chew them to pieces. As far as bubble wrapping goes, you want a minimum sized squad and don't even bother with a shaper or hounds. For the points though, FWs are a better option. Don't replace them with suits or pathfinders because you still need a good number of troops choices.

As far as broadsides are concerned, I prefer the following approach:
1 team leader w/ TA, HW TL
2 other suits, one w/ TA, one with TL
gives you the advantage of being able to shoot at 3 different targets with at least most of your shots BS4
Just stick them in terrain the cover save should give them good enough survivability. If you think you need extra protection, pop a HW DC and 2 shield drones on the team leader

Lotta points for not a lot of effectiveness. Why would you split fire all three of your Crisis suits? Three suits aren't going to cause three morale checks, or vaporize three squads, for that matter. Why bother?

Lord Sanguinis wrote:I know I'm one of the few Tau players who would ever say this but kroot are actually pretty terrible. As assault troops go, marines will chew them to pieces. As far as bubble wrapping goes, you want a minimum sized squad and don't even bother with a shaper or hounds. For the points though, FWs are a better option. Don't replace them with suits or pathfinders because you still need a good number of troops choices.

As far as broadsides are concerned, I prefer the following approach:
1 team leader w/ TA, HW TL
2 other suits, one w/ TA, one with TL
gives you the advantage of being able to shoot at 3 different targets with at least most of your shots BS4
Just stick them in terrain the cover save should give them good enough survivability. If you think you need extra protection, pop a HW DC and 2 shield drones on the team leader

Should I Just Take 4 Squads Of FW's With 3 In Devilfish?

mega_bassist wrote:Actually, if you upgrade one to a Team Leader (for 5 points if my memory serves me right), that one has access to the wargear

This is true, but really to get the most out of your crisis squad you want them to be firing all of their weapons rather than just the one. So Bodyguard would seem like the best option, if i have farsight i could take him with 3 bodyguard and then have 1 Deathrain squad or A TL Flamer Squad (Which has proven to be really useful for the points cost) For the +1 I Need To Take.

I think you are really taking this list the wrong direction. Don't get farsight! You are spending too many points on a unit not worth that many, and the free BKs don't make up for it at all.

Can you write up a list now integrating what we have suggested, just to see where you are at. Don't use any filler, if you have extra points you don't know what to do with, just leave them so that we can suggest what you do with them.