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I've been doing a lot of number crunching here, and I have to come to the following conclusion: Firewarriors are overpriced in 5th, but were ok in 4th. I am NOT trying to read the minds of designers, but rather, look at things from the new perspective of 5th ed, using guard and marines as an insight in how thinks ""ought" to work points-wise.

Basically, The idea is this: you take the most standard statline in the game, the normal imperial guardsman, (3 in everything, with ld7 and a 5+ save) and you use him as a baseline for comparing point costs. since this is 5th ed, he's 4 points, and we can use space marines (another 5th ed codex) a reasonable "up to date" comparison tool.

so, the marines has a +1 in 6 stat categories: they have the space marine statline (4 in everything but wounds and attacks) and ld 8. Assuming one point for each, that's 6 points up. he's now 10 points. but wait, the marines also has a 3+ save and his special rules (not to mention a bolter) unaccounted for. the bolter would likely be one point, as ap5 is not a big deal (except to guard, of course) and it's one point in strength higher than a lasgun. Then we have special rules: And they shall know no fear; combat tactics. I'm going to go on a limb and say these are 1 points. The remaining 4 points pay for the marine's 3+ save.

If you look at units from other codexes, this will make sense: a sisters of battle would there for have a base cost (re: guardman statline) for 4 points, a 3+ save for 4, and 1 point of leadership and a bolter for 1 points. (I assume sisters are leadership 8, but if I am wrong, inform me.)

Now, there are units that don't fit this: for instance SM scouts have a space marine statline (10 points for reason noted above), +2 for move though cover and infiltrate, +1 for a bolter... and now, you note, that you're already are 13 points, but you still have to account for their 4+ save (a definite improvement) and ATSKNF/combat tactics. Is it due to an oversight? because GW wants to sell more marines? I tend to lean towards the latter.

So let's get to the point: firewarriors are worse that guardsmen in 2 stats, WS and I. BUT, I will be generous and say this is only -1 point since a guardman-equiv model isn't going to win in close combat anyways. But their gun, the pulse rifle, is practically a one-shot heavy-bolter-equivalent. this is a bone of contention, point-wise, since HB's have wildly varying prices depending on who's fielding them (i.e SM troops get them for free, the elites field them for 5 points, the heavy support pay 15 for theirs, etc.) if we assume that heavy-bolter ought to be, on average, 10 points, then the pulse rifle (which pays for it's rapidfire by losing a point of AP) ought be about 3 points, rounded down.

so, now, the cost of a firewarrior is 6. Now his 4+ save. We don't have a good way to compare this in 5th, yet...

...but we do in 4th: carapace armor for imperial guard cam out to 2 points a model, which is borne though an analysis of their units: stormtroopers, minus the unless hellgun, were nearly identical to hardened veterans, except veterans got infiltrate and lacked a 4+ save. vets were 2 points less than stormtroopers. the point difference, 2 points, clearly went to a 4+ save, particularly since stormies had to pay EXTRA to infiltrate of deep strike.

so, we add two points to our firewarrior. he's now 8. If you went by 4th ed, his base cost would be 6 (guardsmen were 6); he'd add 3 for a gun, and 2 for armor, and subtract 1 for bad CC skills. he'd be 10 points. but, since the baseline cost of the "yardstick" unit went down, there is not reason firewarriors should be that expensive. they should go down in points to recognize this. As noted earlier (by myself and others) this would increase firewarrior sprue sales, make wiring mech armies lists more forgiving (due to lower costs) make gunline/hybrid tau less painful (due to more boots on the field) and generally be appropriate. I know some have said tau ought not to be a "horde army" but give me a break. you intend to make a horde with 8 point models that need outside support to deal with dedicated armor of any kind? Even orks can powerclaw stuff in close combat.

So, in short, firewarriors should be 8 points. it seems difficult to make an argument for "other factors" like heavy weapons of special rules because firewarriors lack any special rules, and their only "heavy weapon" is a markerlight which the unit it's self cannot really benefit from unless they shell out 3 times it's normal cost for it.

If anyone could find gaping holes in my logic, I would appreciate it, since I've been trying to figure out what I'm missing myself.

I feel that as they are right now, Firewarriors should be in the 7 point range. Due to the fact that increased range means little because of the run rule and closer starting positions, they still only rapid fire at 12 just like any other gun, and the 4+ cover save that is so easy to get. If you want to bring them back up to 10 they need a significant boost in staying power/killing power. This can be done through Army Specific special rules that every army out there seems to have except Tau.

I know people don't want them to be a horde army. I don't really want them to be a horde army either, but then they have to kill and not be killed as the higher point cost dictated. Seriously, as of right now, much of the Tau codex is over priced. Our Hammerheads and Defish are over priced by 30-50 points because being a skimmer means squat compared to what it used to mean in 4th. Our stealth suits are over priced by about 8 points due to range and low T issues. Kroot are ok, but really need the fleet special rule as well. Vespids are overpriced by about 4 points. The list goes on. 5th ed really did take a toll on the Tau because we use range to our advantage, now range is reduced and thanks to the table wide 4+ cover save that is so easy to get at range, even our few low AP guns don't do as much as they used to.

To make Tau competitive again, we need to either field more models for the same points, or make our same models do more.

Jayden63 wrote:This is insane. You want 18 points for figure that drops at the mere sight of a heavy bolter (even at T) or heck, even enemy Kroot in CC.

Use cover and don't put your FW in HtH.

It was 16pt and that was working from the idea that Markers move to having an armywide effect instead of a unit to unit effect. Now, at the 18pt, you get the emps. Nice thing to have against drop pod dreadnought. Pricing is comparable when compared to current FW and what you get. Lets look at the current vs proposed.

Current: you want BS4 you pay 12pts for etherial bodygaurd, next photons add a pt a model and make the tau more survivable in HtH by removing 1 attack from each charging model. Emp is another 3 pts and allows a chance against tanks. How many normal infantry units can take down a Land Raider or Monolith in a single turn?

At this point we are already at 16pts. You really think 2 more points for T4 and free bonding knife is to much?

Not when you look at the other improvements that we were discussing for the Tau.

Proposed: Any Tau squad may benefit from an expended marker hit effect. You use 2 pts to drop cover then every unit firing at that unit fires benefitting from the cover save reduction. Its not that big of a deal agains MEQs but against swarms and hordes its a good thing.

Would now get BS4 from improved targeting in weapons.
Photons would be now included.
Bonding knife included in cost of shas'ui(5pt savings). Shas'ui 10 points was suggested. How about he comes included? These are just ideas.
T4 would increase survivability by 16-17%. If they are firing Heavy bolters at your FW and not your suits then its about worth the point right there.
Squad would have option to get Inv save
Ability to get networked markerlights at much reduced costs.
Would now be able to get special weapon drones.(Pricing on them was just ballpark figure, I originally intended to set the price at 10-12 pts for the fusions and flamers)

Jayden63 wrote:Is there anyone who could possibly see the current Fire Warrior stats as anything higher than 5 points. Add in 1-2 points for the S5 gun and you have something in the realm of 5-7 points as they are now. Substantial improvements would have to be made just to bring them back up to their current 10 point model. Lets not even get into the 16 points of the current SM.

Yes, I could. Fire warriors are in a tough situation. they are about a .5-1 point over right now. You say they should be 7 points, Milque says 8pts and I say 9 pts.. When I throw out a number I am considering other improvements that will help keep the army Tau-like as oppossed to IG-like.

I feel that it's not that their pricing is so bad. Its that the new BRB changed the game so much that there is no way for a simply adjust by points change to work. Drop points then we have IG-Tau with hordes of infantry.

Try to adjust in other ways and you run into similar problems. FNP would make us Necron-Tau, especially if you increase weapon strength. Up the Armour save then we get SoB-Tau or SM-Tau. Up the speed and we have Eldar-Tau. Do anything to improve HtH and the Tau stand up to cheap horde units in cc. Raising weapons strength unbalances the army internally and externally. Increasing the rate of fire is one possible way but instead of just throwing more shots at it I was suggesting making a Tau-like advancement in technology.

Jayden63 wrote:Also when talking about survivability against shooting there are only three ways to go about it. 1 - Don't get hit, 2 - Don't get wounded, 3 - ignore the wounds. The obvious options are increased T (but still has no effect against S6+ or poisoned weapons (which currently there seems to be a lot of), or increase their save, with either a lower number or re-roll. However what about just not getting shot. What if all Tau had some sort of illusion fields. What about a rule that says regardless of weapon skill you can only hit the Tau on a 5+ due to holographic illusions or some other such thing.

All but the last I covered just above(Didn't want to cut up your paragraphs).

As to the stealing the Eldar harlequin holo-invulnerable for the Tau. The Tau already draw enough criticism for being to close to eldar. I'm happy with looking like distant relative to the Eldar as opposed tofirst cousins or being nieces and nephews to the Eldar.

Jayden63 wrote:I don't know, but for the Lonely firewarrior, if they are an elite soldier non-horde type of unit, then their abilities had better reflect their points cost. If they are going to cost as much as a battle sister or marine, they better hit just as hard and survive just as long (in all aspects). Unfortunatly because of the limited options in the game, some duplication of other race abilities may be required to fill in the points. I say this because 3-4 points per model of just air really blows.

I think the Fire Warriors abilities would reflect such if improved in the manner I proposed. Maybe a one or 2 point tweek here or there but not much other than that.


Edit for spelling

There is a lot of sense in what you are saying, though I don't think many players will agree with the idea of a massive upgrade and point cost increase.

I still prefer my idea. Keep the cost about the same but add a few free upgrades especially RF range of 15 inches for the pulse rifle. That by itself helps against assaulters and lets FW use mobility for attack as well as defence.

Killkrazy,Thank you for the kind word on my ideas.

I also, like your idea of increasing the rapid fire range. It would definitely help some. But don't know if it would be enough.

The IG codex is looking to prove what we've been saying about needing to almost double the shooting effectiveness in order to restore balance.

I feel it can be done by either increasing rate of fire, reworking markerlight rules to armywide benefits, standard BS4, or some combination of these.

This would be a good starting point but not enough and while helping with FW survivability there would still need to be a few tweeks, IMHO.


The rest is just attempting to guess which models GW will/might introduce or are going to push.(Sorry if my cynicism is showing.)


Edit 2 unecessary words

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:
This is true, but to take the measure of a Tau army, you must do so in it's entirety. A IG Infantry Platoon, and a Tau FW squad by themselves are not meant to be gamebreaking units. Few in 40k are IMHO. But by adding lascannons, autocannons, plasma, etc. to a Guard Platoon, you can make them much more useful in a variety of situations.

The Tau complement this with Seeker Missiles, Crisis suits (more mobile than any Guard unit will ever be), Broadsides/Hammerheads, and Stealth teams. The combined arms tactics are key to playing a Tau army, and taking a glance at just the FW will not show you much. Sure, I think they could use some reworking, especially in higher Ld. (what Greater Good zealot would run at the first sign of trouble....really??), but comparing Tau to Guard is like comparing a Whiteshield Platoon (and their tactics) those those of a squad of Ultramarines (and their tactics).

Ahh the Tau seeker missile. A weapon so nice, you have to roll to hit... twice. (rolls eyes)

When I look at the Tau firewarrior, I see them as the linch pin of the army. Basically because 1 - your required to take one. 2 - They are only one of two scoring units in the army list (something needed to win 2/3 of all games you play.) 3 - in the other 1/3 of all games, they give up stupidly easy KPs if your not hiding them in a D-fish.

These issues must be addressed if the Tau have any chance of being competitive. Also, this is going to sound harsh, but any "fluff" arguements just don't mean squat. You use fluff to choose what army to play. But when the dice get rolling the only thing that matters are stats, and rules. The T4 doesn't care that if comes from metal skin, or regenerative effects. All it cares about is that you need to roll a 4+ when rolling to wound against another St 4 weapon. So while some out there might happily loose every game they play, but are content with the fact that they held to the fluff. The rest of us would like to win every now and then, it helps make the game just that much more fun.

Once you hammer out how to keep scoring units on objectives and limit the number of KPs, all the while doing to opposite to your opponent, then you can make all the fluff arguments you want as to why it is so.

I personally wouldn't care if fire warriors didn't kill a single thing all game if at the end of turn three I have a fire warrior squad on an objective, it will still be there at the end of the game.

Fluff doesn't equal rules, but the army you field should be reflective of the fluff. That's why IG field platoons of 10-man squads, Orks units up to 30 strong, etc. Marines are supposed to be super-human and a squad can hold off a hundred men - well, that's not as well represented, but they're clearly better. So, fluff needs to be somewhat reflective, but not necessarily exact for game balance.

What's the iconic image of Tau? The Crisis Suit! Wait, no, it's supposed to be the Fire Warrior. Fire Warriors aren't supposed to be super-elite troops, they're the line infantry of the Tau Empire. Armies of Fire Warriors should be a common sight and competitive, right now, they're not.

I'd say 8 points is about right for Tau, but I wouldn't argue at 7. I would argue at 9. And I'd say that defensive grenades should be free too - not that they help that much.

The boost that FWs need is in durability, and the best way to get that some sort of Leadership boost. And even then, I don't see them being more than 8 points each.

Tau should still crumble in melee. They should maybe hold up against a couple Orks. Maybe. Which again, makes me think the 'fix' to Firewarriors is a leadership boost.

One of the problems with Tau is that they are on an end of the bell curve, just like IG. It means that in a game with an open board, they'll have an easy time and crush an 'equal' force. Where on a cluttered board, or even against certain match-ups, they'll get wiped off the board. That's always going to be a problem with an army that is far out on the 'shooty' or 'melee' end of the curve. Armies in the middle have an easier all-around time, but a harder time getting a decisive victory.

Here's some other random thoughts.

Increase Crisis Suit teams to 3-5 models.
Get rid of the mandatory selections (Commander, Fire Warriors).
If you field a Commander, one Crisis Suit team can be taken as a Troops selection (maybe let Farsight have 2 units be troops).
Get rid of the Crisis Suit Bodyguards.
Add Human Auxilia to the army list.
Give Stealth Suits T4 or W2 or both. Right now, they're way too fragile, especially since they compete with Crisis Suits for the Elite Slots. Maybe even make them Pathfinders.
Put a few more Kroot units into the codex - even just one Elite, one FA, and one HS. Then add a Kroot Shaper HQ (even if it's just a unique character), and you could field an all-Kroot army - the return of Kroot Mercs! Even if they only had one choice in each FOC, it'd bring them back. And I think they'd be popular.

Increase Crisis Suit teams to 3-5 models.

So your saying that people should be force to by 3 crisis suits before they could field them? Not to metion that beyond 3 units the group would be fighting for what ever cover is around.

Get rid of the mandatory selections (Commander, Fire Warriors).

They ain't mandatory selections, the FOC with the tau codex state 1 HQ and 2 Troop choices.

If you field a Commander, one Crisis Suit team can be taken as a Troops selection (maybe let Farsight have 2 units be troops).

If people could take crisis teams as troop choices then why the hell would they take anything else? Personal i would love a huge suit army but point wise it's totally unfeasable. Perhaps if you take a XV8 commander you could let your crisis suits count as troops? That would ease the tau troop survivablity somewhat.

Get rid of the Crisis Suit Bodyguards.

Why? They are not mandatory AND they can take wargear upgrades like the commander. Removing them would just hurt the tau more than fix it.

Add Human Auxilia to the army list.

Stats of the human auxila and FOC position please ;3

Give Stealth Suits T4 or W2 or both. Right now, they're way too fragile, especially since they compete with Crisis Suits for the Elite Slots. Maybe even make them Pathfinders.

It's not the fact that stealth suits are fragile. It's the fact that the stealth system they use is totally broken. I recommend the stealth formula to become 2d6x2 instead of 2d6x3. That means that they would be able to get into firing range with a chance before getting blow away from rapid firing space marines (or insert your poision here)

Put a few more Kroot units into the codex - even just one Elite, one FA, and one HS. Then add a Kroot Shaper HQ (even if it's just a unique character), and you could field an all-Kroot army - the return of Kroot Mercs! Even if they only had one choice in each FOC, it'd bring them back. And I think they'd be popular.

You have a troop choice and 2 attachments (in 3e codex they were a FA choice and a HS choice). I like having a Kroot Sharper HQ however, brings new ideas to the table (like giving the troop sqaud he's attached to free upgrades or soemthing) mainly because the HQs we got are either another crisis suit or a etheral (in which he just stands with a sqaud, acting like a idiot)

I have an idea for a new drone because i like FocusedFire's input on the Tau relying on drones. How about a bodyguard Drone that attacks in CC? Anyone who has played Half-Life 2 and seen the man-hacks will know what I'm talking about. A drone with no guns but spinning blades that viciously attack enemies engaging their protectorate.

15pts/each.
WS4,BS0,S X T X I4 A2 LDx SvX
Blades act as power weapons
X=As protectorate. Mix this with the retro thrusters and you would have a nasty deterrent. What you guys think?

Blanket fix for the Marker Lights of some sort (i.e. simplify usage and make easier to use as army support)

A full Fire warrior team feels right at 100 points (12 FW with sarge w/knife, marker gunner with light), get the Devilfish down to 50 and you have a nice scoring unit at 150 points.

Ditch mandatory selections (as is standard for 5th edition).

More flexibility in stealth suit armament.

Some sort of deep strike or outflank denial along the lines of the Landspeeder Storm or Inquisition mystic.

Some sort of better anti heavy infantry weapon (I vote making the ion cannon blast and making it available to another unit).

Jack

< Taken by the void dragon. >

My first Idea for the Tau was called the "Great Leap Forward"..

A massive improvement of Technology for the Tau:

Targeters are built in: All Tau (except Kroot or Vespids) gain BS4 default. Targeters are no longer a wargear.
Emergency Countermeasures: All Tau gain a +2 for initiative when being subject to a sweeping advance.

Weapons are improved greatly due to advancements:

Pulse Rifle: 30" Heavy 2 or 12" Rapid Fire (Two modes. One heavy setting and a mobile setting)
Pulse Carbine: 18" Assault 2, Pinning
Plasma Rifle: 24" Assault 2
Burst Cannon: 18" Assault 4 (Looks like a minigun. All other minigun-like weapons in 40K are at least 4 shots)
MisslePod: AP 3 (Improved Warhead)
Fusion Blaster: Str 9 (To differ from Meltaguns and since it is being fired from units with access to a great power supply)
Ion Cannon: Str 8
Pathfinder Markerlights: 18" Assault 2 (Since they are meant to me Mobile. Regular markerlights stay the same)
SMS: 24" Assault 2 Blast (Ignore cover)
Seeker Missile: AP 2 (Improved Warhead). Always counts as hitting the Top (Side) armour. Four Max per vehicle. SkyRay holds 8 max and produces 2 per turn)
Shield Drones: One gives the unit a 5+ Inv save versus shooting. Each additional one adds +1 to save. Max of +2.

Unit Changes:
Firewarriors: Pulse Rifles and Defense Grenades. May exchange Rifles for Carbines. May add two drones (shield, railgun, gun, or marker) .
Broadsides are T5 and have A.S.S. built in.

Such changes would make Tau a supreme shooty elite army. I think to make a shooty army work in 5th, it need to be totally over the top. The new IG will be armor and infantry spam: Tau will be extremely good at mass Str 5 shots.

Jayden63 wrote:In the new Guard codex coming out, guardsmen are 4 points (at least thats what someone told me.), but yeah the better example is the 75 point squad. But it proves my point even more, so thanks for the hint.

And Kilkrazy is right. 10 Tau at 100 points should do better than a 75 point unit. Except for the guard get that plasma gun and autocannon. Thats huge for taking down vehicles with front armor 11 or better (tau can only glance). To even out the points, your guard get 25 points of more friends to join in. For 150 points you get, two plasma guns, two autocannons and 14 Lasgun shots. All I get are 15 pulse rifle shots.

Not to mention HTH, the guardsmen (depending on whats assaulting them) can hold up a hell of a lot better than the Tau thanks to better I, WS, and LD.

Yeah FW's suck. I still seem to generate more wounds with them by far though, and more wounds = luckhammer can yield greater results for me. I figure I could throw in the fact that for another 20 pts the guardsmen have a 4+ save as well.
In hth all guardsmen beat is tau though.

A 5/4 assault 1 pulse rifle is an idea, with 3 markerlights making it assault 2. Would that fix em' for anyone? sure, it makes markerlights mandtory, but it's a reason to take the imaginary new deepstriking marker drone squads!

*EDIT* regarding the poster above me and his idea to make a 24" assault 2 plasma rifle. ICKY! NO NO NO! KEEP IT AWAY!!! NOT FAIR! AKKKK!!!!!

Beautiful post eaten by computer gods. Curse them I will go again.

There are some really cool ideas and some things the need to be clarified, IMO.

@Jayden- We may disagree on somethings but I'm right there with you on the Seekers. If you have to fire twice then there should be a cover reduction. Complete removal of cover would be to much.
As to the fluff. Fluff represents the underlying philosophy of an army and is the guide for the designers to write the rules by. If you ignore this philosophy then every army becomes the same ol' SM stuff. I chose Tau because I don't want to play SMs.

@Che-Vito- I agree with a lot of things that you have to say. There is something you said about the seekers that needs to be clarified, though. Seekers do not ignore cover. God, how I wish they did or at least reduced cover by 1 or 2pts.

@Superscope-The Tau Crisis Commander is The 1+ HQ choice for the army. Fire Warriors are also 1+ as a troop choice. I found this out when I was trying to do a zero crisis all mechanized list. A very knowledgable dakkite pointed it out to me, for which I am thankful. He saved me from embarassing myself.

@deitrich-We may disagree slightly on the points for the FireWarriors, but I like some of your ideas.
First, I'd like to complement you on your Bell-curve analysis/description. It gets the point across very nicely. Now to agreements and disagreements with your ideas.

Leadership, I wouldn't argue with a bump but am fine with the pretty much 8 across the board. The Etheral does a good job of being nice pacifistic emo-commisar once you figure out how to use him and keep him alive. I wouldn't mind a bumping up of the bonding knifes abilities, though if it meant freeing the Ethereal up to have more of an offensive capability.

Disagree with mandatory 3 crisis suits for reasons stated by others.
Agree with losing mandatory Crisis commander but feel there should always be some Tau "Overseers" at every battle to keep a hint of darkness around the edges of all of their White Knight goodness.
Disagree with losing the Bodyguards
Agree with adding human Auxilla to list in some limited way
Agree with T4 because I was arguing for it army wide except drones and kroot. Disagree with 2 wounds. Would rather see an improvement in the Stealthfeild tech. and/or weapons with ranges better suited to match the stealfields area of protective effect.
Not a full Kroot merc list but, "How about if they brought back Angkor Prok?". Have him as a Special character that allows for mastershapers with better evolutionary tweeks and some minor increased variety of weapons to go along with each evolutionary adaptation.

Tell me what you think.

@8TidbiT8- Like the drone idea in theory but feel like a tweek mis in order to keep it more in keeping with the Tau.

How about Fail-safe shield Drones. When ever a Fail-Safe shield drone is destroyed in HtH it delivers a confined blast, via shaped charge, to the enemy. This blast is represent as two auto-hit S3-S4? powerweapon hits, roll to wound as normal.

What do you think?

@Adeptsister-Like the idea of the Tech leap. I proposed something much like it somewhere far upthread and in others as well. I like a lot of what you propose but would like to put my spin on them. Hope you don't mind.

Absolutely agree with built-in targeting arrays, Have been pushing for them for a while now. Matter of fact ever since Casper pointed out the obvious thing that I'd missed.

Instead of the emergency measures. How about avoiding HtH for a little longer. (It really cheeses me that the SMs got this rule first.)
The Tau unit can voluntarily fallback(Fail morale) if it has to make a leadership test from shooting casualties. Bonding knives allow you to reroll regrouping and still allows to regroup even if under half strength.

Like the pulse rifle switched fire mode. I had been pushing for Rapid fire 2 but that doubled the rate of fire even in close range. Your idea seems to be more balanced.
Carbines, I like and have suggested earlier in the thread. Only backed off of the increased rate of fire when proposing the armywide bonuses from markers. It seemed a simpler fix than redoing all the weapon stats.

Plasma is just dandy as it is. What I suggested was removing twin-linking from the crisis suits. Instead if there are two weapons then they fire as 2weapons. This ups the firepower of all non-stealth crisis suits. Broadsides would each now fire 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked. Same if you took 2 plasmas or 2 meltas. Railguns on vehicles would move to a Heavy 2 profile to keep them viable vs broadsisides and the improved ion cannons I'll mention later.

Burst cannon sounds good but the vehicles(Devilfish) should get the Forge world long-barreled burst cannon: Range 36" S6 AP4 Heavy4 Having a hard time deciding if these should get rending or the Ion weapons should.

MissilePods and Sms should get combined into a select fire weapon with these stats:
LOS Shot Range 36" S7 AP4 Assault(or heavy?)2, Ignores cover
Smart missleRange 24" S5 AP5 Assault(or heavy?)2, Re-rollable blast, no LOS needed
These systems would be represented on the crisis suit by using 2 of the current miss pods but would count as one weapon system.
On Tanks and Broadsides the rate of fire would be doubled to Assault/Heavy 4 for the Range 36 LOS and Assault/Heavy4 re-rollable blast for the range 24" smart missile system

Fusions are perfectly good as is. The suits are powering other things, also. So yeah leave them as is. Now a Fusion Cannon with Range 24" S8 AP1, melta would be nice for the Pirahnas.

Ion cannon, Yes S8. Have been proposing this for the Ion family of weapons:
Ion Cannon Range 48" S8 AP3 Heavy 3, rending
Cyclic Ion Blaster Range 24" S4 AP4 Assault 4, rending

Your Pathfinder markerlight idea is very interesting. I don't see GW taking that route but I guarantee you that I'll be meta-gaming the possibilities for a while.

Seeker Missiles- I like the AP improvement. Would rather they reduce cover by 1 or 2 than the side armour thing. If you play Tau you should know how to manuver for a side shot. 2 misslies per vehicle is enough and Skyray with 6 but reloads 2 per turn would be a good compromise on your idea.

Drones, cool concept but feels a little off. I can't figure it out but its very close to being about perfect. I think limiting to a 4+ max would be about right and the extra drones are padding to keep you at 4+ inv. Leaves room for other drones like the failsafe one I thought of.

Fire Warriors I think you meant rail rifle drones. I'd rather they went to the crisis units and that the Tau gain the Fusion and Flamer drones for the FW squads

Yes to standardized A.S.S., No to T5 Broadsides, T5 would make them too good. I want them to still be scared of S8 and up weapons.


I mentioned the Hammerhead rail guns earlier and I'd like to give a new idea now as to their possible stats.

Heavy Railgun Range 84" S10 AP1 Heavy 2, ignores invulnerable saves if both shots wound, If both shot pen Superheavy armor the they count as destroyer weapon hits

What do you guys think?

Flechette drones.

Attached to FW squad or Crisis team. Shoots flechettes at any attacking figure which must take a saving throw as per the vehicle wargear rules.

focusedfire wrote:The Etheral does a good job of being nice pacifistic emo-commisar once you figure out how to use him and keep him alive.

But, that's forcing you to take an ethereal as a second HQ choice. I think his abilities are great, but it's a forced HQ choice (and you have to use your other one on the Commander) to get them. Without him, FWs are not durable because they're too easily broken and run off the board. So, I'd like to see his abilities just become 'army wide' in some fashion. And/or get rid of the 1+ commander requirement.

Disagree with mandatory 3 crisis suits for reasons stated by others.
Disagree with losing the Bodyguards

If the upper limit of a unit increases, the lower limit should (and will) go up too. Now, I guess you could compare Suits to Oblits since they both have a 1-3 model count. I forgot that there was another unit out there with the same size (and SM attack bike squadrons too, and maybe others). So, I could see them staying as 1-3 models. The bodyguards don't add much, they're 10 points more, but the stat increases aren't significant. I don't see why you need a Bodyguard entry and a regular suit entry. Yes, the bodyguard can take special issue gear, but the wargear list will be gone next codex. I don't think the bodyguards add much. Maybe they stay as a 'command squad' type unit, but I don't think it's necessary.

Agree with T4 because I was arguing for it army wide except drones and kroot. Disagree with 2 wounds. Would rather see an improvement in the Stealthfeild tech. and/or weapons with ranges better suited to match the stealfields area of protective effect.

With JSJ, the burst cannon isn't horrible. You can't give them something with a 24 inch + range, since they could easily stay at the extreme end of the range and be untargetable by most units due to the nightfight rules. I think they need a little bump in the 'close-in' durability. Right now, T3, W1, and 3+ save just means they drop to bolter fire in a hurry.

Not a full Kroot merc list but, "How about if they brought back Angkor Prok?". Have him as a Special character that allows for mastershapers with better evolutionary tweeks and some minor increased variety of weapons to go along with each evolutionary adaptation.

I don't want a full Kroot list. But, I think it would add a lot to the codex if you could take a kroot-only list. Special character HQ would be fine. But, I'd rather see specific units already developed than some, "Prok can upgrade up to 3 units of Kroot to have wings for +X points per model, which makes them count as jump infantry and become a FA choice."

The Tau unit can voluntarily fallback(Fail morale) if it has to make a leadership test from shooting casualties. Bonding knives allow you to reroll regrouping and still allows to regroup even if under half strength.

I'd be fine with this, but I think it's more 'elite level' than what the humble FW is supposed to be.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

@Che- sorry but check again. Right over the Crisis Commander section it says 1+.


@dietrich-
1) Forcing you to buy a commander to get specific abilities is the wave of the future in 5th ed. Plus, What other commanders are there? We may get more variety in the next book but don't really have them now.

I get the feeling that the Tau will be the exception and that there will always be a Crisis commander requirement because of the Fire Caste Rank progression track. I do see the possibility of future Broadside and Stealth Commanders with unique abilities.

2)I disagree with increasing the Crisis unit size for the following reasons.
A)The unit doesn't need to get bigger, just better. This is why I want to drop the twin-linking on the crisis suits. It will effectively double their double their offensive ability in a given weapon and be more tau like in the use of a specific weapon for a specific job.
B)Tau fluff doesn't support the concept of that many Crisis suits. First they are a small race. Second the rank progression of the Fire caste doesn't support it. Crisis suits are actually a little too common as it is.
C) To big of a footprint and cost unbalances the army.

3)I disagree about the Crisis Bodyguards for the reason that wargear hasn't really gone away. Just the big list with the name has. There are still wargear options in every army, they are just listed in the unit entry as opposed to a big list.
To me this is even more of a reason to keep the body guards. A unit of suits with increased stats, abilities and weapon options to accompany the commander.

4)As to StealthSuits, The stealth field is supposed to make them hard to kill. A 24" range weapon puts them at 30" before your opponent moves. With a 6" move heavy bolters can currently target them about 42% of the time. Increase this movement to a fast vehicle like the new hellhound(Everybody is getting faster, even the IG) and it goes to about 58% average ability to spot. This is before any acute senses or night fighting ability or special equipment.

Now go back to the 18" guns and it goes to a 58-74% chance of spotting before any special abilities or wargear are added. Those aren't good odds. I feel that the stealth suits should grant an almost 50% rate of protection from being spotted and should force your opponent to have to use tactics to remove them.

5) What I was talking about with Angkor Prok is that he becomes you Commander that lets you take a larger kroot force of the types already developed and give expanded abilities to the existing units. Things like, with prok in the army the kroot gain leadership 9 and things like your Krootox can infiltrate with the rest of the army, or kroot can gain +1 I, or Gain furious assault for free, or Shapers can now improve armors save to 5+. Wasn't talking about bringing in the winged kroot. Tau are better at that sort of thing already.

As I said before, I believe there should always be Tau there to at least observe and to "Oversee" the battle.

6)The SMs regular troops got this fall back rule, which they shouldn't have.(Makes me think the next bugs list is going to really be sick.)

If there was ever an army that this tactic should have gone to first, its the Tau. This would be be the ultimate expression of the fact that Tau don't fight to hold ground.

Downside- Sms getting this first proves that they are the poster children of GW.

Upside- Now that SMs have the rule it paves the way for other (More fitting) armies to get such a rule.

8TidbiT8 wrote:I have an idea for a new drone because i like FocusedFire's input on the Tau relying on drones. How about a bodyguard Drone that attacks in CC? Anyone who has played Half-Life 2 and seen the man-hacks will know what I'm talking about. A drone with no guns but spinning blades that viciously attack enemies engaging their protectorate.

15pts/each.
WS4,BS0,S X T X I4 A2 LDx SvX
Blades act as power weapons
X=As protectorate. Mix this with the retro thrusters and you would have a nasty deterrent. What you guys think?

Good idea, bad stats for the points. On most things it will only be T3 and S3. The fact that it doesn't have a gun also makes it expensive. Leave the T and Sv the way it is because that's the best option to avoid mixed T problems, but for 15 points make it S6 rending. This way it actually is a deterrent for most things charging it. S3 doesn't really scare a whole lot of things.

I'm against an all Kroot list only because I think it would distract attention from the main Tau list.

In the 3e codex the Crisis Commander was 0-2 and your army could be led by an Ethereal.

Thank you for the info Killkrazy.

Do you think that they will go back to that format or that they will do something different?

GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I’m writing this in a hurry, so excuse me. I might edit it later.

My ideas for an overhaul of tau infantry would go something like the 4th ed guard codex; where in you could buy certain squads ONLY if you had bought a platoon first (such as armored fist, conscripts, etc.). This idea is the same, but with firewarriors: for each squad you buy, you can turn a fast attack choice or some other limited squad into a troop choice, but with limitations. This would introduce much needed variety into tau troop choices, I think. This would necessitate changes to the units in question so…

Firewarriors:
8 points base
Free photons
Shas’ui grants free bonding knife; he’s 10 points.
Carbine can reroll to hit if target is within 12’’. This makes the carbine a “reliable weapon” whereas the rifle is a “brute force” weapon.
Buying them grants special cadre options.

Gue’vesa: squad 4-16
Guardman statline
Every 4’rd can buy pulse weapon for 3 points.
Special rule: militia: Cannot be bought normally (most be taken as accompaniment to firewarriors). Gain +1 to leadership if within 6’’ of a firewarrior squad.

Would help fill in gun lines with expendable targets.

Pathfinder:
Same price and size, but get stealth and may infiltrate with out devilfish. Devilfish no longer mandatory. Their markerlights may fire as assault 18’’ weapons.

If taken as troops, cannon outflank or take a devilfish.

Gundrones:
Pretty much the same as before, really. Cost 10 points, not 12, each.

If taken as troops, cannot deep strike.

Kroot: independent units (do not need firewarriors bought to be taken.)
Krootox can infiltrate/outflank.
Shaper grants 6+ save for free and lets you reroll table edge for outflank.

Thoughts?

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I hope they do make Vsespids good. I have a whole squad of them.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:I’m writing this in a hurry, so excuse me. I might edit it later.

My ideas for an overhaul of tau infantry would go something like the 4th ed guard codex; where in you could buy certain squads ONLY if you had bought a platoon first (such as armored fist, conscripts, etc.). This idea is the same, but with firewarriors: for each squad you buy, you can turn a fast attack choice or some other limited squad into a troop choice, but with limitations. This would introduce much needed variety into tau troop choices, I think. This would necessitate changes to the units in question so…

Firewarriors:
8 points base
Free photons
Shas’ui grants free bonding knife; he’s 10 points.
Carbine can reroll to hit if target is within 12’’. This makes the carbine a “reliable weapon” whereas the rifle is a “brute force” weapon.
Buying them grants special cadre options.

Gue’vesa: squad 4-16
Guardman statline
Every 4’rd can buy pulse weapon for 3 points.
Special rule: militia: Cannot be bought normally (most be taken as accompaniment to firewarriors). Gain +1 to leadership if within 6’’ of a firewarrior squad.

Would help fill in gun lines with expendable targets.

Pathfinder:
Same price and size, but get stealth and may infiltrate with out devilfish. Devilfish no longer mandatory. Their markerlights may fire as assault 18’’ weapons.

If taken as troops, cannon outflank or take a devilfish.

Gundrones:
Pretty much the same as before, really. Cost 10 points, not 12, each.

If taken as troops, cannot deep strike.

Kroot: independent units (do not need firewarriors bought to be taken.)
Krootox can infiltrate/outflank.
Shaper grants 6+ save for free and lets you reroll table edge for outflank.

Thoughts?

I don't really understand the idea of buying more squads and turning Fast Attack into Troops.

If Tau basic Troops were better, players would use more of them and it would solve the problem without some complicated rule about squads and platoons and such.

Killkrazy, what do you think of the Stealth fighter remoras and how would you add them to the army if your could?

I, personally, really like them and am going to get some for Apoc games. Just was tinkering with how they'd work as a regular 40K unit. Maybe as Jetbikes? Or as a fast skimmer that is really hard to deal with?

I like a lot of the ideas floating around it this thread. Hopefully GW reads Dakka sometimes.

Focusedfire makes a lot of sense about firewarriors willing to give up ground. What if Firewarriors have a Deciever Like ability to fall back out of combat? Like on a 4+ they disengage before combat and count as falling back (The normal rules apply). So they could run off the board in one is not careful. Heck, if they fail the 4+, they lose their attacks in CC.

Would that work?