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Probably not. As it is there is no disenscentive to do it unless you made it some squad upgrade. It isn't like Tau attacks ever kill anyone beyond making an occasional Lictor laugh himself to death. So always try for the 4+. If they run great, if they don't they probably still die in your turn. You could make them suffer from No Retreat wounds instead of the enemy attacks if they fail, which would make for an interesting gamble. Might give you the next turn to shoot at the assault troops, might make it even more likely that they'll simply finish of your firewarriors in your turn and assault again in theirs.

@Adeptsister and RailGuns-GW likes to cut/copy paste. Thats why I see the new space marine tactic of volutarilly failing morale test from shooting casualties as a good sign.

@Milquetoast-I like that quick concept. It may not be exactly what I'd push for but I definitely wouldn't complain if some of that showed up in the next Dex. Especially the Human Auxillia and the kroots.

@Killkrazy- The reason a lot of us are looking to move units out of FA is that there is to much competition there with the almost mandatory pathfinders. There are some decent units in FA that don't see as much use because of this.
When you think fast attack and then look at what the Tau have there it just doesn't fit. As much as we might fixate on the crisis suits and fire warriors, I feel that aside from new command units that this section of the FOC is whats going to get shaken up most.

I think that the pathfinders might be better served in an elite or troop slot.(Bothers me to have a Fast attack that has to sit still) but could still live with them where they are. I do have sneaking feeling that they may get replaced by Tetras(Ok with me as long as they still get scout).

I proposed that the Gun Drones move to troops just so that the Tau would have a more mobile scoring unit. I'd personally rather that they got Jetbikes but would still push for them to be moved.

Vespids- As long as they are improved they'd be fine right where they are.

Pirahnas- Up their armor to Front 12 side 11 rear 10 opentopped and give them access to the longbarreled burst cannon and the fusion cannon for close to the same price they are now(Make one kitted out come to about 120pts max after Dis. Pod, Reworked decoy launchers, BS4, Flechettes, ect...). Run them in squadrons of up to 4. Remember that their drones would be scoring units.

This leaves room for some new units.

First, How would all of you feel about the Tau Remora Stealth Fighters becoming an option for a FA. They are Stealth equipped light flyers/skimmers in 40K that carry twin-linked Long-barreled burstcannons and 2 seeker missiles. I'd have them come in squadrons of up to 4.
Second, Human auxillia , squads armed with ? still working on it. Toying with the idea of giving them Rail rifles
Third, Possible new alien ally
Fourth, mix sniper drones with crisis suits
This is how I would like to see the FOC shape up.

Special Characters-Farsight, Improved Shadowsun, *Angkor Prok, Space Pope only if he can call down precise Air Strikes, *Vespid strain overlord(?)

Hqs- Commander crisis suits, Etherals w/improved railrifle bodyguard, *Stealth commander, *Broadside Commander, *Master shaper, *Vespid strain master

Elites-Crisis, Stealth, *Thexian elite(New race), **Old pathfinders(?)

Troops- Fire warriors, Kroot, **Gun Drones,*Human auxillia

Fast Attack-*Pathfinder Tetras, Vespids, *Stealth Remora Fighter Drones, Improved Pirahnas

Heavy Support- *Rail Rifle drones teamed with crisis suits up to 3 suits and 6 drones, Broadsides, Hammer Head, SkyRay, *Maybe something big from the kroot?

*Means New

**Means moved

This type of force organiation would allow for the standard but better Tau forces normally seen. It would also allow for an almost all alien auxilla army or an almost all drone army.

Actually that looks very coherent set down on paper, as it were.

I could quibble with details here and there but the overal organisation makes sense.

I might be the only one reading this thread that hopes Human Aux stay out of the new codex. I don't like them, other alien races fine, but I just don't want to see humans in tau lists. You want humans, go play guard.

Its probably just something I ate.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I liked the Gue'La because it added a bit of variety and extra modelling possibilities and come from the Tau Fluff.

To make them less IG, bring them back equipped with puls carbines and Tau armour.

Tau Special Character

Aun Hau’ss (The Great Healer)

Revered by the Fire Caste for his ability to diagnose and rapidly cure the strangest wounds and alien diseases.

Equipped with medical drones which confer FNP on nearby units except for drones.

Oh, medical drones... that would be cool as long as they're priced appropriately or limited to a small number to be taken only with that special character.

Good idea

Che-Vito wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I might be the only one reading this thread that hopes Human Aux stay out of the new codex. I don't like them, other alien races fine, but I just don't want to see humans in tau lists. You want humans, go play guard.

Its probably just something I ate.

Not arguing your opinion, just curious as to why?

As far as a secondary race goes, I think that adding the Nicassar would be pretty sweet, basically giving the Tau a psyker unit, which I think in all fairness should have different powers/abilities than the Imperial Psykers...something more Tau-oriented....some ideas given below (please keep in mind these are suggestions, the important thought here is the inclusion of the Nicassar)

-Perils of the Warp
-No Ability etc.

Special Tau abilities:
-Battle Meditation (literally what is represented in KOTR, possibly a 1 turn boost to a specific stat for all units)
-Healer (Psyker takes on the Medic role from IG, in that it can negate 1 wound that isn't insta-death)
-Foresight (allows all Tau units to take up to their full movement before the game has begun
-Disruption Field (can disrupt 1 Deep Striking enemy unit per game, forcing player to re-roll scatter dice. BETTER result stands)

I don't like Human Aux because they didn't do anything to help the Tau. At 6 points each they were nothing more than a guardsman with lasguns, and tau 4+ armor. Everything they did, Kroot did better. Now as people are talking about upgrading their weapons and what not, your just making Human based Firewarriors. Whats the point of being Tau if you can replace all your Tau guys with humans. Alien (read non-Tau) races included in the Tau codex should fill rolls that the Tau themselves cannot accomplish. This is why Kroot work well as an HTH infiltrating unit, vespid - Well vespid didn't work due to over costing and too short range of a gun, but they were supposed to be the fast shock trooper type of unit.

The Aux just didn't do anything that wasn't already present, and they should not even be considered in the same breath as the firewarrior. Again, are we playing Tau or Guard? This is why I don't like them. Sure in the Fluff it makes sense to have human allies as not all humans are xeno-hating lunitics, but I just don't think they need an actual unit on the table top. Another alien species just seems that much cooler as long as they are not in a position to replace another job that a unit of Tau firewarriors, pathfinders, etc. fill.

As for the Nicassar, thats an awesome idea for making them the Tau psyers. I personally hate the way psychic powers are handled in 5th edition, but the Tau need some sort of psychic defense to keep from getting raped by enemy librarians/sorcers. This is an awesome fit that I wish I myself had thought of.

The Human Auxilla was just a nod to the fluff and recognizing their popularity. I, personally have no feelings either way.

Now healer units and repair drones would be really cool as long as they were upgrades and didn't take up a FOC slot.
I've wondered about the lack of healer units and have always chalked it up to the Tau being new. By the next codex they won't be that new and it would make sense.

Was toying with the idea of being able to buy redundant systems on vehicle that allow for a decent chance to repair drives on immobilized vehicles.


Nicassar-Very cool and good idea. Only prob I have is it makes the Tau too much like every other race. I'd rather Tau Science prevails in this area rather than following every other race. My opinion doesn't mean that they won't do it, though.
If they did I'd have fun with it and would like like it if the nicassar gave primarily defense against enemy psyker abilities and maybe could relocate a single squad per turn(Passing the appropriate test).

So Tau would be the "science conquers all" race that Humanity was supposed to be? Would make a nice contrast I suppose. Medical drones giving FnP would be a logical extension of the stimulant injectors that the crisis commanders get (since GW loves the constantly improving angle so much.)

I think that if Lost and Damned ever got their list back it would make human auxilia less appealing but thats just me.

Tau is supposed to be the up-and-coming tech faction, compared to the Eldar who are the fading and not advancing hi-tech faction. Humans are the medium tech faction which doesn't really understand its technology and only advances by occasional lucky rediscoveries of missing STC templates.

The timeline of the game never advances. But that's no reason not to give the Tau technological goodies.

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I could see this being exactly what happens to vespids with the exception of them being 20 points with a rapidfire gun. Because that's what GW does. They make a unit good and then jack up the price dramatically (example stormtroopers @ 16 points for the addition of ap3)

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau is supposed to be the up-and-coming tech faction, compared to the Eldar who are the fading and not advancing hi-tech faction. Humans are the medium tech faction which doesn't really understand its technology and only advances by occasional lucky rediscoveries of missing STC templates.

The timeline of the game never advances. But that's no reason not to give the Tau technological goodies.

Time does move forward in 40k, just very slowly, example: Cadia has been lost to Abbadon's fleet from the eye of terror.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's method is to change the codex to sell the models.

The commander was made 1+ in 4e to sell the new Crisis Commander model, which included the two special issue weapons.

So it depends on what new models they may introduce, as well as changes to make people buy more of the existing models.

For example, they might introduce a plastic kit of the Tetra, and they are likely to change the rules about the basic FW to make people use more of them.

I expect Vespid to get crazy (see ork loota) good. They have a model for it already, just get shiny new must have rules and there you go.

12 points each
WS3, BS 3, S3, T4, W1, A2, I5, Sv 5+, LD 7
Jet packs
Fleet
Rending
Radiation Gun is S3, AP3, Assault 1 flamer Template

I could see this being exactly what happens to vespids with the exception of them being 20 points with a rapidfire gun. Because that's what GW does. They make a unit good and then jack up the price dramatically (example stormtroopers @ 16 points for the addition of ap3)

I dont know, GW wants to sell models. The Vespids are already AP3 with their guns, just not rapid fire. They don't work now at 16 points, I don't think they will sell at all at 20 points. GW has a ton of Vespid models sitting on the shelf right now because they suck. A 20 pt rapid fire vespid wont sell. They need something different and very attractive to make them jump off the shelves and into peoples army.

@Jayden and Hustler-
Just my opinion here but GW will never give the Vepids a template like that. If they did they make them cost as much as ogryns.

I'd love it if they did get such a weapon but think it would be over powered even at S3. This would create a situation of 5 Vespids versus 10 marines. Each Vespid averages 6 marines auto hit. Thats 30 S3 to wound rolls which comes to 10 dead marines. Remember this was 5 Vespids VS 10 Marines in one round of shooting.


The best rumours I've heard so far about the Vespids is that for about the same price, maybe going up to 18Pts, they will get either poison or rending HtH attacks. To me this would be just about enough with their current weapons.

If they got rending plus an extra HtH attack that would come to be just about even when comparing 10 man squads of vespids and Meqs. with the vespids at 18 or even 20 points.

The poison attack wounding on 2+ and a role of 6 is an insta kill would work with their current profile pretty well at 16pts.

What do you guys think?

Vespids are too vulnerable, their armour save is too low. Making them more expensive for a better weapon but just as vulnerable might not work.

It might work if the player uses them cleverly as a rapid strike from behind a screen or cover. Screening them means risking another vulnerable unit though.

Vespids don't need to be better, they need to be a lot cheaper, like 12 points.

The ork burna boy can come in a unit of 15. Sure its only S4 AP5, but the whole unit can destroy what ever it touches.

Maybe if the flamer was S2. The thing is, Vespid suck right now because they are just such a linear unit. They can't do anything against horde style armies. What mob of 30 orks, 20 gaunts, or consolidated unit of 50 IG are going to care about 10 single shots a turn. None.

By giving them a flamer template now the unit is useful against all comers and bring a unique aspect to the Tau army (a army that can't really get flamer style templates.) It also goes along with GW current planning of letting one or two units in an army ignore cover. Its their way of compensating for the 4+ cover that runs rampent in the game.

Also keeping the gun AP3 is fair because of all of the other AP4, hellfire, poision ammo that the rest of 40K world is getting. It would suck if the unit was only deadly to other non-MEQ armies and those other power houses could just laugh it off.

I wasn't totally serious when I pointed them at 12 points. But even with the flamer template weapon, an armor save of only 5 does not belong on a 15+ point model regardless of what it Toughness is. (orks are a different story, they compensate for the few point heavy units by letting you take a crap ton of 6 point guys).

I agree with both of you on that there is room for improvement. I'm just not certain as to the area.

I actually got vespids to work for me in 5th ed. I just stopped using them because of the FA slots competition problem. Any game where you would use them(an unprotectd infantry/jump infantry squad) you'd be using pathfinders instead.

How about this; For the existing 16pts they get armour sv 4+, HtH poison attack, with the option to buy EMP grenades? Its either that or the Vespids as-is at Killkrazy's suggest 12pts with the EMP purchasing option.

If this doesn't seem quite right then please post suggested tweeks.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

What if fire warriors get the "Hit and run" USR that works both ways (assaulting and assaulted)? That way Tau could attempt to flee then set up a firing zone with other dudes, thus the ki'yon princeable comes more alive here (one of the 2 tau ways of war btw ^_^)

Indeed, the fire caste are high tech hunters of the future. The ground is where the kill is made, not for the taking. Once the kill has been made, the ground is their for the taking.

Superscope wrote:What if fire warriors get the "Hit and run" USR that works both ways (assaulting and assaulted)? That way Tau could attempt to flee then set up a firing zone with other dudes, thus the ki'yon princeable comes more alive here (one of the 2 tau ways of war btw ^_^)

Indeed, the fire caste are high tech hunters of the future. The ground is where the kill is made, not for the taking. Once the kill has been made, the ground is their for the taking.

Useless. Fitting under 5th ed ultimate list of bone headed rule change is the Hit and Run USR. It is now stat based. You have to roll your Initiative or under in order for it to work. So it will only work 1/3 of the time for most Tau units. Totally unbalanced across the game, especially since things like Witch Hunter Seriphim get a free ride and its been FAQed that they don't even have to test. Utter BS.

See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

Kilkrazy wrote:See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

At least with my way it's quite hard to escape. I would believe perhaps seeing Hit and run work about... 1-2 times a game perhaps?

Superscope wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:See, I think Tau should be punished for getting into assault, rather than given ways to try and avoid the consequences. But Tau need ways to avoid getting into assault --by a combination of mobility and firepower.

At least with my way it's quite hard to escape. I would believe perhaps seeing Hit and run work about... 1-2 times a game perhaps?

I would rather have something that boosts my FW's firepower and mobility, so I can manoeuvre into and out of the right positions. That's why I keep recommending to increase the pulser rifle to rapid fire range 15. IMO this is exactly what FW need, and it isn't a crippling advantage since a clever enemy will be be able to figure out a counter.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I agree with Killkrazy on the punishing the Tau for getting caught in HtH part.

I like the increased rapid fire range but it won't make as much of a difference unless the Tau pick up a bit more mobility.

This is why I'm so stuck on the idea of the Tau being able to voluntarily fail morale checks from shooting. Make it the reverse of the BT rule. The Tau take a wound while an enemy unit is within assault range then they may choose to vountarily fall back. Maybe, make it an option to fallback toward the etheral if the player wants. These thing combined with the increased Rapid fire range would be very nice.


@Che- I picked the emps because it would be just like GW to do something like that to them. In order to keep them from being "too effective and to stay in tune with the ranged combat style of the Tau".

Yeah, your right though. The photons would be better, but the option for both would be the best.

As to the Vespids falling back outta CC. Unless the Crisis suits got the same it would make the Vespids better than the suits in a lot of ways. It would unbalance the army.

Now for Jaydens idea about templates, Might be a cool upgrade for the Strain leader if the stats were appropriate.

In 3e, the presence of an Ethereal allowed Tau to reroll a morale roll, I think. This gave a chance of deliberately failing a shooting morale check. I may be remembering the rules incorrectly. This was an ability of the Ethereal rather than of the troops.

focusedfire wrote:I agree with Killkrazy on the punishing the Tau for getting caught in HtH part.

I like the increased rapid fire range but it won't make as much of a difference unless the Tau pick up a bit more mobility.

This is why I'm so stuck on the idea of the Tau being able to voluntarily fail morale checks from shooting. Make it the reverse of the BT rule. The Tau take a wound while an enemy unit is within assault range then they may choose to vountarily fall back. Maybe, make it an option to fallback toward the etheral if the player wants. These thing combined with the increased Rapid fire range would be very nice.

I'd rather see something along the lines of runnning after shooting for Firewarriors (ala the new Guard Codex SC order) then lifting Combat Tactics from Marines.

This will allow them to be more mobile all the time. Plus I would think such a soft assault target would just not be shot by any assaulter in range.

Jack

If the Tau got the Stealth remora drone squadrons as a FA choice. What would their rules be like?

I could see them getting infiltrate/scout but am unaware as to their armor value if any. They obviously have a stealth field but, what else?