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focusedfire wrote:If the Tau got the Stealth remora drone squadrons as a FA choice. What would their rules be like?

I could see them getting infiltrate/scout but am unaware as to their armor value if any. They obviously have a stealth field but, what else?

If it's a heavy drone, give it 3+ armour and the squadron becomes 1-5 at 30 points each. Thuogh I am far from convinced that relatively vulnerable models should have a high point cost.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Thats the thing. I don't know their rules, just their weapons and size. The Remoras are supposedly flyers in IMP. Armor or apoc but wouldn't have to be in 40K.
They are armed with twin-linked Long Barreled burst cannons, a networked marker light, and two seeker missiles.

They are about the same wing span as a Pirahna but almost half the length. I was wondering, Should they be a Jetbike model or should they be another skimmer?

When you visit the Forge World website, take a look and tell me what you think.

Do you think the Remora should be a Jetbike?
Something like:
WS2 BS3 S5 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld 8 Sv 3+ (S5 simply because of size)
Unit type: Jetbike
Special rules: Stealth field, Infiltrate, Deepstrike, Scout

Or a vehicle?
AV Front:10 Side:10 Rear10
Unit type: Skimmer, Fast
Special rules: Stealth field, Infiltrate, Deepstrike, Scout


Which direction would you like to see GW take with them?

What should they cost in either direction.

I think the remora would be too good in a 40K game unless it was ridiculously expensive. It can simply fire its burst cannons or NML and stay out of the range of any return fire. There's a reason it is a flyer.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Personally, I'd make the Ramora a bike. The Tau already have a small vehicle in the Piranha and Tetra (if the Tetra gets used.)

However your talking lots of points. Sure Seekers are 20 of the thirty points, but if you take a couple of Remora's then your almost forcing the player to also take 200+ points in pathfinders. After all, Ramora's without extra markerlights are REALLY expensive burst cannons, with two one shot S8 things. So they either get one shot off before getting shut down or if your lucky live but don't do much of anything after turn 2.

Making the seekers non-mandatory, drops the cost down and allows for a mobile marker light (which truthfully is what we all want). Now it might be considered. Or better yet, make it an add-on unit to pathfinders. Since people don't want to take pathfinder devilfish, allow for a unit of 3 remoras (with seekers) to be taken in place of it for 30 points each. Now, your getting more bang for your buck and not competing for FOC slots.

Remember that Long-barreled burst cannons have the following profile:

Range 36" S6 AP4 Assault 3


I think that they would be better as a squad or squadron of their own, though.

Personally I think they would make a great Jetbike unit but would be happy with them either way

As a jetbike I see them coming in at 50points each but if made multiwound then I could see them 60 each.

As a skimmer squadron I see them as the same price range as the pirahnas but with a very different purpose.(I want the Pirahnas to become scoring unit transports by making the Drones troops).

Also, know that the special rules were only suggested. I personally dont think that they would need scout. Was just throwing options out for poeple to pick and choose from.

Unless things have changed drastically from the VDR I have in my White Dwarf. Long barreled only increases range by 50%. Mega is the one where it increases the S by 1 and lowers the AP by 1. So thats what I was going by. 27" S5 AP5 guns. Didn't think it was all that and a bag of chips. But if it is S6 AP4, with double the range thats a bit different, although not that much better than a standard Heavy Bolter which on vehicles usually is 5-10 points.

I always thought mega heavy flamers would be the bomb. GW did too which is why you see them on the LR Redeemer.

The guns are 36" range in the FW rules. With a stealth field that means most people shooting them are going to be deploying from the sides. If markerlights are more viable in other units such as broadsides or FCW in the future, then the seekers would still be useful.

The only thing I can see competing with remoras in fast attack would be pathfinders or tetras if they were allowed in the Codex.

@Dal'yth- I see and agree with your point of being to good.

How about this for the FA slots:

Tetra is the new Jetbike. It can dance at he edge of spotting distance but doesn't deal much damage in itself. It replaces standard pathfinders which now become either an elite or a troop choice.

The Improved Vespids are still jump infantry designed to take on MEQs and even heavy MEQs.(Hey, Vespid gun becomes AP2 along with improve HtH poison attack?)

The Pirahnas are now objective capturing drone troop transport with improved weapons(Long barreled BC or Fusion Cannon)

The tetras are the lightly armoured firepower skimmers. As skimmers they have to be barely within spotting distance to fire thus are able to be countered by other fast vehicles/skimmers able to get within 24" and attempt to fire on them. Because of the stealth fields they are unable to take disruption pods.

How does that sound for Tau FA choices?

I think pathfinders should stay in fast attack. You want them deployed last and shouldn't compete with crisis or stealth suits.

I find tetras really good in 4th. You can't get the numbers needed in 5th, but I think they'd be a nice addition for a new codex.

I have no suggestions for vespids. I'm not sure what role they should perform, but I'm not too keen on what I've seen.

I've never liked the short range on piranhas. I'd prefer a medium range gun to offset their otherwise eggshell armor. I can't think of what that gun would be in the existing arsenal. The fluff has them not being big on the battlefield and I'm not sure why GW ever put them in the main codex.

Can't offer much more than that. The current approach seems to have Codexes offset the core rule changes and I think in the case of the Tau (and Necrons) that means a more thorough thought of what the army's brand and signature units are to be.

I've moved on to AT-43 thanks to GW's new approach so can't offer much playtesting against the newest codexes.

The reason I didn't mind moving the pathfinders is that in 5thed the entire army deploys at the same time.

I agree that the Tau will probably get an extensive rework, starrting in the markerlight area and Fast attack then moving on from there.

Sorry to here that you've dropped the game. Maybe things will change enough to bring you back at some point.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I think pathfinders should stay in fast attack. You want them deployed last and shouldn't compete with crisis or stealth suits.

I find tetras really good in 4th. You can't get the numbers needed in 5th, but I think they'd be a nice addition for a new codex.

I have no suggestions for vespids. I'm not sure what role they should perform, but I'm not too keen on what I've seen.

I've never liked the short range on piranhas. I'd prefer a medium range gun to offset their otherwise eggshell armor. I can't think of what that gun would be in the existing arsenal. The fluff has them not being big on the battlefield and I'm not sure why GW ever put them in the main codex.

It was a groovy new model fairly cheap to make since Forgeworld had already done the design work. I agree with you they need a longer range weapon because of the terrible armour.

*smacks head*

forgot the new deployment method, though I still think GW has the suits as the Tau signature unit.

I'm not convinced in the reflexive belief markerlights and, by extension, pathfinders are all that great in 5th. One would need to take them in such great numbers that there'd be little non-S5 options left in the other FOC slots. Like I said, I only played 7-8 games with them in 5th.

For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

Pathfinders:
WS:2 BS:3 S:2 T:3 W:1 I:2 Ld:7 Sv:4+ Cost: 15pts

May be mounted in a devilfish at +80pts, if taken may take the devilfish's place on the FOC as a troop

Dedicated Scouts: Pathfinders are perfects scouts and have the following rules as dictated in the rulebook: Relentless, Scout, Infiltrate, may also pay +10 pts to infiltrate with no min distance from the enemy regardless of deployment.

Might give them stealth but i dunno

THIS IS JUST A THEORY

Krellnus wrote:For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

I feel this is way to strong. If you think to the Tyranid fluff, they disturb the warp and still face the full force of its power. Maybe something like theirs would be good. Like you roll and extra D3 or something, nothing too powerful

Dal'yth Dude wrote:*smacks head*

forgot the new deployment method, though I still think GW has the suits as the Tau signature unit.

I'm not convinced in the reflexive belief markerlights and, by extension, pathfinders are all that great in 5th. One would need to take them in such great numbers that there'd be little non-S5 options left in the other FOC slots. Like I said, I only played 7-8 games with them in 5th.

Markerlights are very expensive at the moment. Plenty of cheap markerlights would help restore Tau firepower and compensate for their lack of H2H.

Krellnus wrote:For a psychic defence is the follow:

Tau physiology:
The Tau little to no presence in the warp making it hard for enemy psykers to target them, against psychic powers the Tau player rolls a dice, on a 1,2 or 3 it goes off on a 4,5 or 6 the power is negated and the psyker takes a perils of the warp hit(due to spending so long in the warp looking for them).

Pathfinders:
WS:2 BS:3 S:2 T:3 W:1 I:2 Ld:7 Sv:4+ Cost: 15pts

May be mounted in a devilfish at +80pts, if taken may take the devilfish's place on the FOC as a troop

Dedicated Scouts: Pathfinders are perfects scouts and have the following rules as dictated in the rulebook: Relentless, Scout, Infiltrate, may also pay +10 pts to infiltrate with no min distance from the enemy regardless of deployment.

Might give them stealth but i dunno

THIS IS JUST A THEORY

15 points is overprices, pathfinders would not want to infiltrate right next to an enemy, paricularly not for 10 points, nd they don't need relentless, just assault markerlights.


starting with a base 8 points for a firewarrior... give them stealth (+1) and infiltrate (+1), and assault 18 / heavy 36 markerlights (+1). Give them a special rule: eyes of the cadre: for every pathfinder team you buy, one unit that may not normally outflank may do so. (+2). They are now 13 points base. maybe give them an option to buy an expensive wargear that allows them to reroll coversaves, like 2-3 points per model.

Kilkrazy: Even if markerlights were free, one would need to take a great number of them to compensate for the BS3 of the owner.

Let's pretend a player takes 2 max squads of pathfinders. That means roughly 8 markerlight hits a turn until a heavy bolter is pointed their way. It also means one less squad of Fast Attack options. That's more my point rather than the cost per-se.

Tau don't actually have psychic protection; they simply don't have any psychic presence. Psychic powers hit them at full effect,(they are not nulls) they just don't understand what the frag just happened. They assume that whenever some race uses a psychic lightning bolt that it must be some handheld projector or something.

Pathfinders are one of those funny units in 40K. Is a unit thats primary purpose is to not kill a damn thing themselves.

Wierd huh?

One could rationalize them out as the poor mans devistator squad, but to do that you need seeker missiles, and a 10 points each and only two allowed per vehicle, they are not all that point friendly. Worse they have a weapon and a profile that do not match.

The marker light is a heavy weapon, the pathfinder is a T3 4+ sv model. Not stats that are conducive to staying for prolonged periods of time on the table if they can't move. They were thrown a bone by also being armed with a pulse carbine, but at 18", they were still in range of any weapon that could easily cut them down once they stopped moving. Because lets face it, pathfinders have a huge target painted on them, they never really last that long.

Honestly, pathfinders should probably just go away in the new codex. If markerlights become assault instead of heavy and are reduced in price and become networked then you can get all the markerlights you need by taking marker drones in your normal firewarrior squads. Let stealth suits take them, which is actually a perfectly good place to put them. If things like the Ramora or Tetra are also included then you can have mobile markerlights. Lets also not forget the sniper drone team. A perfect compliment to a stealth unit, yet again, more marker lights.

Really, if you think about it, if you remove pathfinders from the army list, it really opens up the FA for pirahnas, improved vespids, and other creations. The almost mandatory unit of pathfinders in todays list really puts a crimp on other possible FA based lists.

I suppose you could move them to Troop, and that wouldn't be a bad thing, except that they still have a profile not designed to allow them to live for very long.

That's why I never really liked Pathfinders.

Pathfinders are supposed to be a combination forward observer and scout. But, as a markerlight bearing unit, they're really used to sit in the back of a DZ and light stuff up. Now, if Markerlights were Assault weapons (or even rapid fire), using them to outflank and then come on and call in Seeker Missiles might work. The other problem is that all the lights in a unit target one enemy unit. Now, that's fine if you want to reduce cover saves and raise BS (which is typical), but if you want to call in a bunch of seeker missiles - you may not want all four seeker missiles at one target.

I think a lot of the 'fixes' in the Codex is bringing the roles of various units into line with the fluff and background.

I was looking at the codex the other week. The basic Cadre is a commander and command team in suits, a bunch of fire warriors, another crisis suit unit, and then supporting units (broadsides, piranhas) and allies (kroot and vespids).

So to me, the first step is - fix FWs. Make an army with 3-6 units of FWs competitive. Not 'nob biker' competitive, but 'SM Battlecompany' competitive. If the 'fluff' army is effective, people will field it. Right now, it isn't, so people don't. Then add the ancilary units to cover other areas in your army build.

And, I think one of the great problems with tau is the same with Necrons. You have one basic 'trooper' model.

The marker light is a heavy weapon, the pathfinder is a T3 4+ sv model. Not stats that are conducive to staying for prolonged periods of time on the table if they can't move. They were thrown a bone by also being armed with a pulse carbine, but at 18", they were still in range of any weapon that could easily cut them down once they stopped moving. Because lets face it, pathfinders have a huge target painted on them, they never really last that long.

This is why I feel assault 18'' markers would make them much more dangerous: I recently wrote a really-dedicated mecht tau list, and after rereading the core rulkes realized the pathfinders would be almost useless, since they would be a static element in a mobile list. you can't really have them hop out of a fish and light gak up for truly devastating fish-of-fury attacks. assault 18'' as an alternate firemode on their lights fixes that first point.

fragility as a second point, is why they need to get all sorts of silly buffs to their cover saves orsomething: pathfinder teams with a 3+ cover save (when firing from behind a gunline) would make them stick around longer. they should also probably have leadership 8 base, since I don't think pathfinders are rookie" firewarriors.

Pathfinders are supposed to be a combination forward observer and scout. But, as a markerlight bearing unit, they're really used to sit in the back of a DZ and light stuff up.

This is why I think pathfinders should increase the cadre's outflank abilities: pathfinders are supposed "to pull their cadres forward into combat," but you never really see that happen in-game. but having a pair of pathfinder teams and 2 firewarrioor/crisis teams come in from outflank and shooting all your tanks in the ass with bs4-5 s5 weaponry would be an awesome sight to see, and more to the point, would make the the "mobility" of tau different from the "mobilty" of mech eldar and such.

I don't like needing to field unit A to get more utility/ability out of unit B. Same reason that I don't like needing the Etheral for the morale re-rolls (which, with Ld8, Tau need). I much prefer having those abilities built into a unit. If you need Pathfinders to Outflank Firewarriors, one of two things will happen: it'll be a cheesy powerbuild, or it'll be an overpointed worthless bonus.

I think the concept is fine, but then just let Fire Warriors outflank (and explain in the fluff, it's because of Pathfinders, who might be 'off table' giving support) and get the FWs pointed appropriately.

Regrettably GW has gone with the idea of "If you take this, you get this." mentality for 5th ed codexs.

So if taking pathfinders opens up other options for other units, I see that as a real possibility.

Also since this is 5th ed were talking about the assault 18" markerlights as suggest above is a little on the low side. 24" minimum, but leave the heavy setting at 36".

I've been thinking about Drone support units, lots of potential here. The drones we do have are gun, shield, marker, and sniper. I think adding in a medic drone for FNP, Distortion Emmiter Drone for disrupting deepstrike, and suicide drones (think demo charges) would be interesting ideas for adding in more options.

Along those lines, I'd like to see a 55 point devilfish that comes with a drone support system. You can choose any of the drone support systems at no extra cost, instead of just being stuck with gun drones. Naturally you can still upgrade the drone support system to an SMS system. I also think that burst cannons on Tau vehicles should be considered defensive weapons.

The concept of Unit A helping Unit B is combined arms. It's the way most successful armies have always worked, and it's the way Tau are supposed to work. A combined arms army used well, should be able to exert 15 points of force for each 10 points it costs, but if used badly it exerts 5 points of force. (Made up numbers... the meaning is clear, I hope.)

The problem with 40K is for example in terms of morale, Tau are practically the only army that doesn't get Morale 9+ either automatically or easily, and Ethereals are too weak/expensive.

(IMO the whole 40K morale system is broken and needs replacement, but that's another thread.)

Jayden63 wrote:Regrettably GW has gone with the idea of "If you take this, you get this." mentality for 5th ed codexs.

So if taking pathfinders opens up other options for other units, I see that as a real possibility.

That approach has generally only been used for HQs though. I wouldn't be shocked if you take a Commander as an HQ, then you can take one crisis suit team as a troop choice (ala Warboss and Nobz, SM Captain with Bike, etc.). I would be surprised if it was, "If you army includes Pathfinders, one unit gains the Scout USR." That doesn't mean it's impossible, but I'd be surprised.

Kilkrazy wrote:The concept of Unit A helping Unit B is combined arms. It's the way most successful armies have always worked, and it's the way Tau are supposed to work. A combined arms army used well, should be able to exert 15 points of force for each 10 points it costs, but if used badly it exerts 5 points of force. (Made up numbers... the meaning is clear, I hope.)

I'd consider that Synergy more than Combined Arms. Combined Arms means fielding tanks, aircraft, artillery, infantry, etc. - well, at least that is the meaning that I put on it.

One of the problems with the Tau army is that a number of units have pretty 'defined' roles. Your anti-tank is pretty much only in the Heavy support section (with fusion blasters avaiable to some elites and FA). Unlike, say marines, where anti-tank can be a Combat Squad with a lascannon, a Dev Squad, or terminators with CML. Firewarriors have the best small arm in the game - and nothing else. They can only be anti-infantry (and anti-light-light vehicles - like ork trucks).

I look forward to the next Tau codex. Tau, right now, have some pretty 'non-typical' rules and abilities. I'm curious to see what GW does with them. Based on how the game is going, I would think Tau will be streamlined, simplified - fill in whatever word you want - and lose (or see big revamps to) at least some 'non-typical' things like Target Locks and Markerlights.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

With codex creep well established, I'm wondering about our poor railgun. It was the hotness because it was the first weapon to be S10 (back then ap1 didn't mean anything). It was one of the few things that helped make the Tau special. But now everyone and their dog has ways of getting S10 attacks (either shooting or melee).

So call me crazy, but what if the Railgun got to be the first 40K non apocalypse specific weapon to get Strength D to be used in normal every day 40K?.

Suddenly all of the eternal warriors need to watch their backs. Once again, vehicles would fear the Railgun regardless of what sort of 4+/3+ cover save cheese they are attempting.

Its not too far fetched considering Railguns are still pretty limited in a Tau army.

Donno, just sitting back in my chair thinking Tau and the rise of their technology.