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< Taken by the void dragon. >

I know that I'm biased because its my idea but I like the thought of having 2 different weapon profiles for the broadside and the hammerhead railguns.

Leave the broadside profile the same but make the guns twin insead of twin-linked. This makes them two shots per turn.

The Hammerhead I'd like to see the profile go up to a heavy 2 with increased range and some special rules.
When solid shot is fired and both shots wound the wounds ignore invulnerable saves. If they both pen vs armor the the shot can count as 1 Destroyer hit instead.

On the submunition round any shot that doesn't scatter treats cover just like a barrage weapon and if both shots hit then the shots are counted as two S7 AP3 Large Blasts that treat cover as if they were barrages.

Input please

Well... I have recently acquired my tau army, so I'm not an expert but...

That sounds a little too good

focusedfire wrote:I know that I'm biased because its my idea but I like the thought of having 2 different weapon profiles for the broadside and the hammerhead railguns.

Leave the broadside profile the same but make the guns twin insead of twin-linked. This makes them two shots per turn.

The Hammerhead I'd like to see the profile go up to a heavy 2 with increased range and some special rules.
When solid shot is fired and both shots wound the wounds ignore invulnerable saves. If they both pen vs armor the the shot can count as 1 Destroyer hit instead.

On the submunition round any shot that doesn't scatter treats cover just like a barrage weapon and if both shots hit then the shots are counted as two S7 AP3 Large Blasts that treat cover as if they were barrages.

Input please

This trikes me as overly complicated. just make it a lance weapon if you want to combat codex creep. Hammerheads are one of the last units in the tau army to need improvements, aside from readjusting base prices to reflect the lower utility of skimmers in 5th ed.

Give the Railgun an incendiary round which creates a large flame blast ignoring cover.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

i LOVE the idea of the Remora landing on the scene as i love the model and think of it as acting as pin-point fire support for FW squads.
I think they should act as light skimmers since being drones they wouldn't be able to attack in CC and would just move up in altitude and evade combat. Possible upgrades Swap LB burst cannons for Twin-Linked Missile Pods for free or Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles for +20 pts.

As for the HH problem, i like the drone assisted Sub-Munitions that the Manta has(d6 scatter instead of 2d6), transfer that to the HH and you have accurate blast damage.

Drones can attack in CC.

I'm saying fluff wise I don't see a floating remora as being capable of holding off an assault or being able to retaliate in kind which is why i'd rather see it as a light skimmer.

One suggestion that isn't really about changing the rules: the next codex could really use some diagrams showing how to determine which armor value you're shooting at when targeting Tau vehicles! They're very irregularly shaped so it would be nice to have a consistent standard for everyone to go by - the big rulebook has these diagrams for box-shaped Rhinos and stuff but they don't work very easily for Tau vehicles, especially with the weird shape of the front ends.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

It is crucial to planning a remake of Tau first to decide how good they should be in H2H. My opinion is they should remain mostly poor.

In fact I would reduced the H2H abilities of Crisis suits and give them more shootiness instead, this is in line with my general view that Tau need to be given more firepower and mobility, rather than H2H.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Yes. I see no reason to suppose that battlesuit pilots would improve their I, WS and A as a result of years of avoiding H2H, and not training in it. It would be much better if their A was applied to firing weapons.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Plus the vets are piloting battle suits, which are the tau version of power armor. So the stats increase make sense. Better attacks because instead of punching someone with fists, they smack you up side the head with a heavy gun or kick you suits legs. The better initiative comes from the suit making them faster. At least that's how I see it. Plus it is always fun when a crisis suit manages to run down an enemy unit in close combat and destroys them.

But they pay quite a few points for that moderate hth ability when I'd rather those points go towards making them lethal shooting threats in the day of cover save parties.

The thing is, HTH is not just a trifle aspect of 40K. Its not something that can be ignored. 5th edition is heavily focused on HTH. The devastating results of HTH resolution combined with short starting distances and the numerous ways units have to reaching you all add up to actually HTH being THE most important part of the game and the easiest way to get a win.

Unfortunately we talk about maneuverability, but the truth is, there isn't that much room to move. Unless you purposely put impassible terrain on the table, it is impossible to create choke points. It is impossible to continually make a firing retreat as you eventually run out of table. Even difficult terrain is not a limiting factor 1/3 of the time, and it sure as hell isn't a deterrent.

The sad truth is that at some point the Tau have to put down their guns and grab sticks. Everyone and their dog knows to beat Tau all you have to do is catch them, unfortunately 5th ed has made that all too easy.

Truthfully what Tau need is a unit of Death Company. They actually need a HTH unit that can hit so damn hard that the enemy will actually have to think twice before sending in a unit. Even the SAFH guard and marine armies all had at least one unit of strong HTH support to protect their firing lines. The Tau need this more than any of them. Now I don't think the Tau should be able to make an army out of them. But allowing for a single, maybe two, units of kick ass HTH will be enough to help keep the enemy off our backs.

One good place to do this is to actually pump up the Krootox like it was represented in Dawn of War. That thing put out the hurt and kept going. Make it so that a normal unit of Kroot can take 5 Krootox. Make the Krootox monsterious creatures at WS4 S6 A3 I4 with a 4+ inv save. When mixed into a unit of kroot and your opponent realizes that you can dump wounds onto the Kroot to keep the OX swinging, your opponent might think twice about just running forward.

The thing is, sure we could make the Tau just obliterate everything on the table by turn 3 at range. (about how long you have to do it before the enemy closes too many units onto ours), but that will not go over well at all, and quite frankly sounds boring to play (at least after the first 10 or so crushing victories) or play against.

All that you say is true and it is a sad reflection of how GW have unbalanced the game in 5e.

Of course there are many ranged combat games which are not boring. The key point is the cleverness of the game design.

Perhaps some mean H2H units, such as Assassination drones, could be added for 5e and taken out in 6e when the rules get rebalanced.

Tau assassination drone squadron 0-10, 18 points

WS5, S4, I5, BS2, A2, Ld7, T3, Sv4+, Jetpack movement

Twin pulse pistol, two power angle grinders. Gets four attacks on the charge, two of them at S8/I1.

It only needs a new sprue to replace the bottom of the standard gun drone.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

IMHO, The reason for the Crisis suits improved stat-line isn't to make them HtH. Its to make them durable and survivable enough to tie-up/delay a squad for maybe an extra turn.

They don't get powerfists or an incredible number of attacks. What they get is just enough of a boost that if caught by a general troop or such(Nothing assault oriented) that they can possibly do enough damage to have a chance of sticking around for the next turn(Tarpitting). They also as an elite need to be strong onough to win when another shooty armies basic troops tangle with them in HtH. A basic IG infantry squad should not be able to wipe them off of the field.

The increased toughness and the multi-wounds are a testament to the concept of enhanced durability. It is in keeping with the tau firewarriors being some of the best armored basic troops that are non-augmented, non-superhuman, and non-magical. They aren't designed to go into HtH but if someone foolishly assaults with a weak unit, the Tau can win based on the 4+ armor save. This is of course, as long as there are no power weapons.

I, personally, think that GW did a good job of balancing the Tau stat-line for 4th ed. I'm thinking it may need a tweek for 5th ed, though. This is why I tossed out the idea of T4 for the starting point for the Tau. It wouldn't be over the top, just more durable.

This would make Stealth suits T4 and crisis suits T5. Not that out of line when compared with what we've seen in 5th ed 40k,IMO. The real question is this in keeping with the philosophy of what is Tau. In 4th ed I would have said maybe but not needed. In this edition I can see this as having a need. The Stat line for the basic FW would look something like this:
WS2 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld8 Sv4+

Not a HtH Juggernaught just something fairly durable without becoming too much like one of the other races.


@Jayden, I hear what you saying but still believe that the Tau can be made into a balanced force that is still playable and fun.

I, personally am still winning more than I'm losing with my Tau. I've found that I can still, usually, punch a hole big enough for the manuvering room get to a long edge game.
The problem is that when I get the room that there isn't enough mobility in my troops to capatalize on this. By the time they load up and reposition my opponent has run and stayed with me.

This is why the Tau need troops that can either be more mobile(Buyable Engine upgrade that allows the Devilfish to have an extra 6" of movement) or shoot and move 12"(Drones as troops)

I really like Your KrootOx idea. You did lose me a little with the 4+ inv save, though. I think T6 W3 with FNP would be more fitting.
Still keep it at 3 Krootox per troop selection but allow them to still infiltrate. Maybe tie them in with the Shaper to where they behave as long as he's there to guide them but if he dies they go into a stampede.
Then do something similar with the Greater Gnarlock but when their handler dies they go into a rage.

What do you think of these tweeks?


@Killkrazy-I like your overall concept of Tau not getting a great HtH unit, yet I disagree about your stance on the Tau veteran stats for the reasons I just stated above in this post.

As to the assain drones. Don't give up just yet on the Tau philosophy of war. Take a look at what the IG are getting. They aren't getting any form of a real boost to their HtH. Yet, by them being redesigned to more accurately reflect their army Archtype they are going to be very competitive. This seems to be the current trend, making the armies perform more in accordance with their base concept. If this trend continues then look for the next codex to be even more Tau-like than this one.

After biting my tongue for a bit, i'll jump back into this discussion.

I look at what guard and other shooty armies are getting and I would hope we would get some love at somepoint

Current Ideas:
Tau Crisis Suits - should be T5 with all the new big guns out there T5 seems needed, Hit and Run - yes we have low I but would help us get out, I think BS 4 would help out as well (they should shoot better than FW), finally squads of 5 would increase their survival rate

Broadsides - built in ASS, BS4, T5, TL Hvy 2 railguns...still caped at squads of 3

Kroot - Shaper drops in points, grants FC, Kroot still can infiltrate with Krootox, 5+ armor for free

HH - TL Railgun

Perhaps a few other generals as IC...perhaps form ForgeWorld?

Other stuff already mentioned

I still believe that Tau have been hurt badly in 5th but and just really need a few rules tweaks/points tweeks to be back in action.

Overall I think people are overestimating how ridiculous a new Tau codex should be. I'm honestly not into most of the statline changes people suggest (except for boosting kroot a little), especially the wild gun changes - I'm used to the Tau stats, I think they make sense, and I'm afraid of change! I personally want most of the Tau changes to involve more efficient costing (cheaper fire warriors and devilfish, etc.), better FOC choices sometimes (gun drones as Troops or whatever), and wholly new units and upgrades, especially things that can give us sweet special abilities to slow down the enemy or actually escape from sweeping advance sometimes, cleverly re-maneuver to shoot some more. I don't really want to have T4 BS4 4++ Jet Pack fire warriors, just more tricksy fire warriors and other units that support them really well. I don't know.

It has been quite some time since I followed or weighted in on 5E Tau, as I think I covered most of my key points early in this discussion. However, as there's a recap, I'll give a little commentary from a non-Tau player, and what I'd like to see for carved out for them within the 40k metagame.

focusedfire wrote:Now to recap the high points of what I feel needs reworking, updating, or what was missed.

A)Tau mobility has taken a hit and needs improvement. Especially in the troops area of the FOC.

A2) Also their should be no static infantry held heavy weapons. The only exception to this might be the rail rifle if used as in an Ethereals bodyguard.

B) I feel the Tau are going to need an effective increase in firepower also. It just needs to happen in a Tau-like way.

C)Tau FOC is in need of restructuring to shift some units where they are needed most. Fast attacks and heavies have to much competition.

D)Markerlights are in desperate need of a rework. Just can't get enough lights in a list without crippling the army.

E)Tau vehicles need more weapon variants

F) The Tau need more history to help define their philosiphy and thus their heros and leaders. This will lead to more effective special charcters. Side note* Make the etherals honorblades +2 strength power weapons or give them a gun to shoot.

A. Tau mobility is only bad because their Transports are overpriced using a 4E pricing model. In 5E, the Transport should come down considerably, greatly reducing this limitation.

A2. This is a given - Tau units are armed uniformly. I suggest (non-Scoring) Drone Special Weapons Squadrons, and still think these would be desirable. The occasional Human unit armed with Lasguns, Special + Heavy would also be acceptable. These could be keyed as 0-1 per Fire Warrior unit.

B. Additional firepower should also come from reduced per-model costs, similar to how Guard and esp. Ork basic infantry costs came down. FW dropping a couple points would seem to be about right, supplemented by non-FOC Heavy Drone Squadrons.

C. I'm not particularly interested in reshuffling the FOC per se. Some armies are going to have bad sections of the FOC, other sections heavily-contested. Making all Drones non-FOC would be a help. Having strong Heavies and good Fast is very Guard-like, which makes sense considring how Tau are essentially Xenos Guard.

That said, more Xenos allies as Elites would be highly desirable to show the Greater Good in action. 50-pt S6 T6 A3 W2 Rending Monstrous Creatures (Donorian Clawed Fiends) would be a great Xenos ally, along with Stealthy Infiltrators (Hrud). A non-FOC Raging Swarm unit could also be added. Kroot should be tailorable, taking a half step from the Mercenaries list. I'd suggest the option for all Kroot to have 1 USR (army-wide).

D. Markerlights definitely don't work properly - too messy. Markerlights ought to work more similarly to Searchlights, allowing all other Tau units to key off the Markerlight. I suggest: A unit fires its Markerlight (only) at an enemy unit; if it hits, any other Tau unit shooting at the target unit may re-roll all to-hit rolls.

E. I'm sure Tau will get more variants. Of that I have no worry.

F. I have no problem giving Tau Relic Blades (+2S PWs) of some sort.

Anyhow, hope this helps.

Thanks John, Its nice to have an impartial viewpoint.

I like the Tau. Because I like and play the Tau there will be a tendency to push/wish for too much.

Having the viewpoint of one whom doesn't play Tau helps me to reign in a certain amount of over-zealousness on my part.


Some questions about your analysis.

First, How do you justify such a small empire having cheap basic troops?
Do you see this being the result of a major expansion of the Tau empire?

The reason I ask is because without some major shift in the size of the Tau empire and an exponential increase in available manpower it doesn't seem to make sense. This is why my suggestions have been working from the point of slightly improving stats.
I know its only fluff but I feel that GW uses the fluff as the defining philosophy to help when redoing a given army(I'm probably wrong on this).

Next question. Could you pls define XREPDROPDRIPz? Imay be an idiot for not knowing but I'd rather find out than remain ignorant.


Once again, thank you for answering my request for input.

I would say I like Strength D railguns, but I don't know what strength D does

For Kroot:
USR: Tailored Genes:
The Kroot have the ability to 'pull' useful DNA out of their food, and may take one of the follow gene upgrades:
Human: Kroot breed quicker and hence may take up to twice as many karnivores as they normally would
Ork: After eatin da boyz kroot become orkier and as such have +1 T and +1 A
Eldar: Kroot gain some of the eldar's natural agility and psychicness they benefit from +1 I and may use the following psychic power
Kroot Psychic Roar:
All Kroot may move and assault 12" and shoot and run (unpenalized by rapid fire and terrain) in the same turn once per game (not the first)
Space Marine: Become 'super kroot' and gain +1 T +1 BS and +1 S

just thinking, not points costs at the moment but would maybe playtest to find how they balance.

Cheap basic Troops are here to stay as part of 5E, or didn't you see the Ork Codex?

The Fluff is very clear that the Tau are expanding *very* rapidly in Imperial terms, I would hazard to guess semi-exponentially. That means there will be much more Xenos allies and more numbers of Tau on the field. I think that GW was overly timid with the last Tau Codex, so this should be bolder and add more Xenos and Crisis Suit POWER FISTS!


Also, the XREP... was Dakka doing something stupid about my ampersand character. I was just proposing a bog standard Human (i.e. IG-like) Infantry squad.

@John- I'm not complaining. Could definitely live with the points drop for troops.

This will sound weird,especially after wishlisting for some similar, but the though of Power Fists on crisis suits makes me worry about the Tau losing their flavor.

Maybe they can channel power into the suits forearms making them power weapons but even then that should be a Farsight Army only ability.

With the exceptions of what I've mentioned/questioned in these last two posts I pretty much agree with your take. Some points I'd quibble a little with but all in all a nice reset.

There does seem to be a theme of the drones and the markerlights needing to be reworked along with an expanded kroot list of options.


Thanks for answering the questions.


@Krellnus-Strength D is an Apoc term for destroyer weapons. They are very good at tking out Titans, BaneBlades, and the like.


Edit for sentence sorting

Does a IG Commander having a Power Weapon affect the Guard flavor? If someone were to max out IG Power Weapons, would we imagine that the Guard had changed? No, so don't sweat the PFs on Crisis Suits. Besides, with the unit being only 3 (4?) WS3 models, I don't see this beng an option that's going to scare any "real" Assault unit with a Power Weapon.