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Keeping with the "anime" feel that some people claim the Tau have, I'd think giving crisis suits force pikes (power weapons) would fit the Tau theme very well.

To keep with Tau don't like to get sticky in HTH give the weapons 2" reach. Thus in any assault phase where a model with a force pike is within 2" of an enemy unit (but not currently engaged in any melee) that model may make its full compliment of HTH attacks against that enemy unit. The Tau unit gets no bonus for charging (because they didn't), the enemy unit does not get a counter charge move because they were never charged.

Kinda like the Ork boarding plank.

Yeah, seems a little strong. Would be kinda neat though and unique.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

hi guys, I'm new here but I'll throw in my 2 cents on one of tau's major problems in 5e, which is the usefulness and survivability of our firewarriors.

Firstly, I'd recommend a 2 point drop like everyone else has been saying, but that's already been discussed.

Another idea I had, which is a way of upgrading firewarriors without breaking the fluff about not integrating heavy weapons is the idea of "gadgets".

For example,

Laser sights:Short ranged laser pointers aid unsteady hands against charging enemies. +2 points per model, every model in the unit gains +1 BS at 12''
Collapsible bipods: The unit can hug the ground but still hold it's weapons steady on their bipods. +2 points per model. The unit may fire the turn after having gone to ground. All other affects still apply.

I can't think of any other examples right now.

Another idea I had was that of the "tactical withdrawal", which plays off the crisis suits' jet pack move.

Tactical withdrawal: Units of Firewarriors and Pathfinders may take their run move during the assault phase, after having shot, and do not need to assault an enemy unit.

Feel free to criticize and discuss.

FW stay the same except BS4 because they are elite rank and file troops

New drone weapon: Particle Beam: S8 AP3 Heavy 1 Range 36" A new weapon designed to accompy commanders and units that cannot take markerlights, replaces the need of seek missiles over short distances and designed to counter other races 'krak' missiles.

Railguns: increase cost by 15-20 points however has the following USR: No Recoil: Although a pain to reload even for more experienced Fire Warriors, The Railgun has virtually no recoil however counts as a DEFENSIVE weapon Hammerheads and Assault 1 on Broadsides (to overpowered? But follows laws of physics)

I'm just throwing out some of my opinions on points cost.

With the exception of Kroot. Most things in the Tau codex are already over costed by current 5th ed codex standard. So it boggles the mind when people suggest an improvement but then increase the cost of the unit. How about starting with just making them worth the current cost. The following are just my opinion of what sort of point drop the models probably should have to fit in with the current 5th ed model.

Basic firewarrior 2-3 points
pathfinder 2-3 points
Vespid 4 points
Hammerhead chassy 20 points
Devilfish chassy 30 points
Pirahna 10 points
Stealthsuits 8 points
Crisis suits 5 points
gun drones 4 points
Broadsides 10 points

Weapon systems should also come down in price. After all, plasma guns are not nearly as effective at range because of the abundance of 4+ cover. However, I'm not going to reprice the entire Tau armory, prices change depending on what weapon is on what unit, how many, etc.

Firewarrior stat line is fine, they just need a price reduction. If a unit of 12 FWs with a Devilfish was in the 150-point range (figure, 7-8 pts each = 85-95, and Fish is around 60), six full units would only be 900 points. That's a bargain.

@Jayden- Those point drops sound really good but the only skimmers that might drop in price are the Pirahnas, IMO.

Looking at what the IG are getting and what has been done to points costing of skimmers in general for 5th ed, I think we are deluding ourselves if we think they are going to drop more than 5pts in price. Now if we were SM's instead of Tau it might be different.

@everyone-
I'll admit that a lot of my ideas about the direction of the next Tau codex come from looking at FW peices and what they are doing. It seems that GW is bringing more stuff from FW at an ever increasing rate. This is why I feel that the list of new stuff for the Tau will be somewhere in this group:

Tetras
Remoras
The new twin gunned Pirahna
New Kroot options
Greater variety of turret options for the Hammerhead
Sleeker crisis suits(Maybe, I think it may not be cost effective to upgrade and the FW variants are still selling nicely)
New alien Auxilla
And Drum roll please.....................

The Barracuda in plastic form. Just can't figure if it'll be a heavy or a Fast attack. It might even be outside of the FOC.

Which of these sounds right or would you like to see?

I agree with the whole Vespid thing. Vespids are totally out of the question right now. They are very versatile and quick, but their poor WS, and their terrible armor save make them not worth having ((like all Kroot)). I enjoy having the shooty tactics, but some Ordnance weapons would do the Tau some good, or perhaps a Marker light that increases all weapons fired by an entire AP so the Seeker missles would have a bit more than a Chance of killing something.

They're all dirty cold-blooded space-communists if you ask me! Besides, their shiny, selfless "we love everyone for the Greater Good" vibe is so unfitting for the "lulz we're all badass jerks" future of 40k. GW needs to play up their cold, calculating, "join us or die, and probably still die anyway" Borg-y style. That's just me of course.

Hey! I REALLY enjoy playing the only actual good guy race in the entire damn Universe!

Yeah, Vespids should be WS4 Sv4+.

The thing about skimmers is that they no longer are the hotness that they were in 4th edition. They lost so many abilities compared to what they had.

I can only think of one advantage that being a non-fast skimmer has over its tracked counterpart. Thats the ability to fly over difficult terrain and not having to test.

Thats it. The skimmers moving fast - gone. Hit only on a 6 in HTH - gone. Add also that vehicles are more vunerable in HTH now and they have to get a price reduction.

The basic rhino is 35 points. The Devilfish is 80. +2 carry, +1 front armor (which means nothing in HTH), -1 BS, two gun drones, +1 KP (thanks to the two gun drones) does not 45 points make.

i think youll have to wait a long time for a new tau codex

Jayden63 wrote:
The basic rhino is 35 points. The Devilfish is 80. +2 carry, +1 front armor (which means nothing in HTH), -1 BS, two gun drones, +1 KP (thanks to the two gun drones) does not 45 points make.

We all know that our D-pods are horibly undercost thanks to 5th obscurity rules. I would hope the devilfish drops down into the 40 range (drones/wep inculded in price) to help us recover the increase in D-pod's inevitable points hike. Hopefully our fish will wind up around 50 points with that upgrade.

gennadius wrote:i think youll have to wait a long time for a new tau codex

I think most of us realize it will be 2 or 3 years until tau get an upgrade...but we can dream right?

I think the devilfish should cost about the same as a chimera right now with Disruption Pods being a 15-20 point upgrade. (Extra armor is 15, and you can't tell me its worth more than DP.) I'd simply remove the drones as passengers and just make them act like additional weapons. Or just get rid of the drones all together and allow two drones attached to units to essentially ride free and allow them to fire. Maybe give all tau vehicles a multi-tracker and/or black-sun filter for free.

I was thinking of an added special ability for the Broadsides called Stabilizers. Essentially broadsides start with A.S.S. and keep their current stat line. the player has the option to initiate their stabilizers by saying so at the beginning of his turn. The Broadsides stomp their feet into the ground and hunker down, diverting all power to their targeting systems. the suits cannot move while stabilized but can pivot 180 degrees in place. they gain the following stats boost
+1 BS. +1 T, Railgun becomes Hvy2. They also suffer the following penalties. -2WS. I down to 1. Once engaged in HTH the broadsides will destabilize as the pilots have more pressing matters. A player can destabilize at the start of his turn and the broadsides stats return to normal.

< Taken by the void dragon. > of time).

Perhaps this a bit too complicated, but why not just give the Railgun a penetration of D6+D3?

This essentially means that it auto penetrates Armors 10 and 11, at least glances 12, and has good chances of penetrating 13 and 14.

Plus it can still fire a large blast (which should probably ignore cover), so it's much better than the IG Vanquisher.

Also, the Solid Shot should do d3 wounds to Monstrous Creatures.

Hmm...what else?

Tau should, without a single doubt, get Robots.


Battlesuits should be T4(5) and Stealthsuits should be at least T3(4), if not T4.

Not too familiar with the Tau, are Battlesuits monstrous creatures? Because if they aren't, then they should be.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Perhaps this a bit too complicated, but why not just give the Railgun a penetration of D6+D3?

This essentially means that it auto penetrates Armors 10 and 11, at least glances 12, and has good chances of penetrating 13 and 14.

Plus it can still fire a large blast (which should probably ignore cover), so it's much better than the IG Vanquisher.

Also, the Solid Shot should do d3 wounds to Monstrous Creatures.

Hmm...what else?

Tau should, without a single doubt, get Robots.


Battlesuits should be T4(5) and Stealthsuits should be at least T3(4), if not T4.

Not too familiar with the Tau, are Battlesuits monstrous creatures? Because if they aren't, then they should be.

Sounds a little overpowering with the d6+d3 but like the ignore cover rule and d3 damage idea.
Also IMO crisis suits are fine as T4 but i do think stealths should be T4 also and no they arent monstrous creatures because they just aren't big enough.

I'd also like to see a medium squad support vehicle, not quite transport but not as powerful as a hammerhead, kinda like the SM Razorback. I'm toying with this idea

Tau Swordfish 70pts

AV 12 11 10 BS 3
Carrying Capacity 8 FWs and up to 2 drones carried externally which act as defensive weapons and detach with the squad
Dedicated Transport for FW armed with Twin-Linked Cyclic Ion Cannons S 6 AP 4 Heavy D3x3 Rending
Can upgrade to Twin-Linked Fusion Cannon for 15pts

@8TidbiT8-Ilike your Broadside(DOW Video game) Idea. It seems ballanced without a lot of rework. But I do agree with T5 for at least the Broadsides.

as far as the Swordfish, I had that same name saved for a Railgun toting variant of the Barracuda.

BTW- the cyclic is too powerful and I don't see the Tau getting a new transport.

@everyone

I do think it would make sense for the Sky-Ray Missle Defense Gunship to be able to transport. I understand about the Hammerheads needing the space for energy generators and ammunition. But the Sky-ray?

How about instead the Sky-Ray becomes the dedicated transport for the pathfinders.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

All I ask is just think about it. To me it seems it would have a very nice synergy.

It would be only about a 35 point increase over how we Tau players currently load our pathfinder warfish and it has the added benefits of possible two BS4 markerlights, six S8 heavy hitters, and this is in addition to having 2 hammerheads and a broadside on the field at the same time.

I second the idea as a skyray being the razorback analog for tau. It would certainly give you more reason to take them, particularly if they're no longer eating up heavy support slots.

The SM get drop pods and the IG are getting Valkyrie so why not Tau have the Orca, I have thought of my own modification:

Orca Jungle/Urban Deepstriker:

F:12 S:11 R:10

Cost: 100-135pts (edit)
Crew: 3 Fire Warriors
Weapons: 3 Rail Rifles; 1 hull mounted on front controlled by pilot, 1 on each side mounted on a special sliding chair: all have 45 degree FOV.

Any unit that takes an Orca have the deepstrike special rule (edit)

Transport:
12 Models, not including kroot or vespid but including units equiped in XV suits (count as 2) and Human Auxiliaries. All drones attach to outside of hull.

Upgrades: May Take any upgrade currently in Codex: Tau Empire.

USR: Deepstrike transport/ fire suppourt. When Immobilized automatically deploys landing gear and maintains current position as if it were a drop pod.

History: Developed after the Taros campaign as a way of getting troops into a hot zone with fire suppourt. Originally scaled back in use by fire caste commanders, it has found use as a variation of the Mont'ka and the crews have adopted the motto;
If the fight won't come to you, we'll take you to the fight.

Yes, I added some history ain't I sooo nice?

The problem with just reducing points costs across the board is it doesn't cure any of the problems.

Some units like the Devilfish certainly cost too much now. It should come down.

However, just making everything very cheap just means you fill up the board with cheap rubbish which can't get the job done and is even more vulnerable to the enemy than before, because you don't have space to move or hide.

To be blunt, making everything cheap doesn't reduce vulnerability to fast moving assault hordes, it increases the vulnerability. Failing an increase in H2H capability -- which most Tau players don't want -- the army needs more shootiness, more mobility and more defence against being shot at.

To Killkrazy's above statement that I would add more all around durability including HtH.

Not something That makes them good but something that allows for better tarpitting. A unit that can take a heck of a punch but doesn't really hit back unless destroyed.

This brings me back to either the fail safe detonator drones as wargear or some defensive drone screening squad.

Defensive drone screening squad:
WS2 BS2 S3 T4 W(1 or 2?) I4 A1 Ld10 Sv2+/4+inv
6-12 per squad if they are 1 wound models
4-8 if they are 2 wound models
Unit type:Jet Pack or same as owner
Weapons: stun guns and photon grenades

Or

Fail-safe detonator shield drones:
WS2 BS2 S3 T* W1 I4** A1 Ld* Sv*/4+inv
Unit type: As per controlling model
Weapons:None
Special rules:Shield drone, HtH intercept
HtH intercept: Whenever a unit containing a fail-safe drone is in close combat at the beginning of the CC during the defender reaction the Tau player may send one(Only one)Drone forward to intercept as the rest of the unit voluntarily falls back D6 inches. Once the unit has fallen back the intercepting drone detonates, represented by a S4- AP5 large blast centered over the drone that ignores cover saves.
Note: Even if the unit falls back off of the board due to this rule, the Drone still detonates into the enemy squad.
Also, if the Tau unit is the one initiating the assault, Then during the defenders react if the defending squad can reach the Tau squad then they are considered to still be locked in combat with the Tau sacrificing the rest of their HtH for that turn.


*Means same as controlling player

**Means when using the detonation rule the drone always goes first.


Feedback please. Which would you take and what would you tweek.

Some thoughts on stuff people wrote.

Krellnus wrote:The SM get drop pods and the IG are getting Valkyrie so why not Tau have the Orca, I have thought of my own modification:

Orca Jungle/Urban Deepstriker:

F:12 S:11 R:10

Cost: 100-135pts (edit)
Crew: 3 Fire Warriors
Weapons: 3 Rail Rifles; 1 hull mounted on front controlled by pilot, 1 on each side mounted on a special sliding chair: all have 45 degree FOV.

too expensive. Part of the reason drop pods work so well is that they are cheep. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Tau unit that would want to DS close to an enemy unit. Especially if we get upgraded range on our weapons such as 15" rapid fire or 24" fusion blasters. For the most part there is no reason for the Tau to DS close to any enemy. Now it sounds like, unlike the drop pod, that the thing can still move after DS which is a nice bonus, but I can't think of a single reason to put crisis suits in one. Any unit on board can't shoot out. Since crisis suits are where our heavy guns are, that makes no sense. And firewarriors can ride along in a Devilfish for cheaper (especially if the price drops).

I like your initiative, but I just don't see this as all that useful in the Tau arsenal. Unless your envisioning something that I'm missing.

focusedfire wrote:Defensive drone screening squad:
WS2 BS2 S3 T4 W(1 or 2?) I4 A1 Ld10 Sv2+/4+inv
6-12 per squad if they are 1 wound models
4-8 if they are 2 wound models
Unit type:Jet Pack or same as owner
Weapons: stun guns and photon grenades

Or

Fail-safe detonator shield drones:
WS2 BS2 S3 T* W1 I4** A1 Ld* Sv*/4+inv
Unit type: As per controlling model
Weapons:None
Special rules:Shield drone, HtH intercept
HtH intercept: Whenever a unit containing a fail-safe drone is in close combat at the beginning of the CC during the defender reaction the Tau player may send one(Only one)Drone forward to intercept as the rest of the unit voluntarily falls back D6 inches. Once the unit has fallen back the intercepting drone detonates, represented by a S4- AP5 large blast centered over the drone that ignores cover saves.
Note: Even if the unit falls back off of the board due to this rule, the Drone still detonates into the enemy squad.
Also, if the Tau unit is the one initiating the assault, Then during the defenders react if the defending squad can reach the Tau squad then they are considered to still be locked in combat with the Tau sacrificing the rest of their HtH for that turn.

The Defensive drone screening squad doesn't do anything extra that a normal gun drone squadron does, with the exception that its harder to kill (better save). So just make gun drones better and that solves the problem. The fail safe detonator drones is a good idea, but I see no reason to actually make it a stat model. Why not treat some of these drones like ork bomb squigs, oilers, etc. They are models that are not actually models. You need to have them as representations, but no actual stats for them as they just hang around until used. They are more like markers than anything else.

Having the fail-safe drones as an actual stated model is a part of the balance. If they have stats then they can be shot before the assault. It keeps the Tau players from being cheeseball with the item.

The defensive screening drone could very easily tie up an assault squad for several turns. Especially if you give them the Stubborn rule that I forgot to enter. My bad.

focusedfire wrote:Having the fail-safe drones as an actual stated model is a part of the balance. If they have stats then they can be shot before the assault. It keeps the Tau players from being cheeseball with the item.

The defensive screening drone could very easily tie up an assault squad for several turns. Especially if you give them the Stubborn rule that I forgot to enter. My bad.

This is 5th edition. Have you read the SM codex, Ork codex, and Guard rumors? Cheesy away, cheese away.

I don't like the Fail Safe Drones as listed. Too flexible and controllable. They should work like this:

Fail-Safe: Instead of making their close combat attacks, the Tau player may detonate the Drones. All Engaged models (Friendly and Enemy) suffer a SX AP6 hit, where X is the number of Drones in the unit at the time of detonation. Remove all Detonated Drones from combat.

This does a better job of trading a unit of Drones for an enemy unit.