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JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't like the Fail Safe Drones as listed. Too flexible and controllable. They should work like this:

Fail-Safe: Instead of making their close combat attacks, the Tau player may detonate the Drones. All Engaged models (Friendly and Enemy) suffer a SX AP6 hit, where X is the number of Drones in the unit at the time of detonation. Remove all Detonated Drones from combat.

This does a better job of trading a unit of Drones for an enemy unit.

You lost me with the friend and enemy part. How much do these drones cost? Because even at 5 points each, your now paying 20 points for S4 and against most things the opposition will still take less damage (because of better T) and probably have a better save. I don't see how that really helps keep the tau unit from dying. Hell even against just guardsmen its a pretty even trade off (since Tau never charge) the remaining guardsmen will still probably be enough to turn the HTH results into their favor.

On Fire Warriors in HtH:

There were some interesting posts a few pages back suggesting using the Hit and Run USR or the Space Marine rule where they can choose to fail a test as escape valves to get out of an assault they don't want to be in. I've been thinking about that, and it seems to me that Tau are already good at losing combats and trying to run. I think the main close combat problem is that with I2, they don't have much chance to survive the sweeping advance rules.

I'd like to see photon grenades get a special rule that prevents sweeping advances against units carrying them. Then a typical assault against FWs would play like this: Tau are assaulted -> take casualties -> try to fight back -> lose combat -> fail leadership -> fall back to regroup and shoot again before the next assault. Assaults on Fire Warriors would still be effective at killing models and pushing them back, but they would no longer be instant probable unit kills.

Enthe- It's a good idea but I feel the Tau would still need a 1point bump to their Toughness to be able to weather most of the combats and still have models left alive.

That or a unit wide shield gen that gives the entire unit Inv saves.

I don't know.

Whenever I get to the point of not knowing I look at the Hallmarks of Tau warfare. Mobile, Precise, and fairly Durable Firepower. I then try to build on those.

I hope that the Tau keep the not subscribing to attrition warfare concept and instead continue on the path of a high-tech pinpoint fire style army that borders on being an elite strike force.

focusedfire wrote:

I hope that the Tau keep the not subscribing to attrition warfare concept and instead continue on the path of a high-tech pinpoint fire style army that borders on being an elite strike force.

QFT.

This probably steps on the toes of the Eldar too much, but why not give the Tau sergeants an option for a sort of force field thing that gives all Tau in that unit a 5+ invulnerable save?

Although I guess that this doesn't help them too much.

Or perhaps something like 'Noble Sacrifice- If the unit would be sweeping advanced, nominate one model and remove it from the game as a casualty. The combat ends and the enemy models may consolidate.'

Something of that sort? Or maybe it's too overpowering. If it is, perhaps make it so that Tau still have to roll for LD?

Vladsimpaler wrote:This probably steps on the toes of the Eldar too much, but why not give the Tau sergeants an option for a sort of force field thing that gives all Tau in that unit a 5+ invulnerable save?

Although I guess that this doesn't help them too much.

Or perhaps something like 'Noble Sacrifice- If the unit would be sweeping advanced, nominate one model and remove it from the game as a casualty. The combat ends and the enemy models may consolidate.'

Something of that sort? Or maybe it's too overpowering. If it is, perhaps make it so that Tau still have to roll for LD?

"Noble Sacrifice" sounds a bit too powerful, and a bit too unrealistic.
Example: 5 Termies win HTH with a squad of Fire Warriors, somehow, some of the Fire Warriors survive. 1 FW is going to then halt the whole squad of Termies???

Nice Idea there Vlad. Ithink we are all heading towards the fix in our own ways.

Off-topic

BTW, There is a debate That I sparked and Whitedragon took me up on about the A.S.S. rules

I commented on how poorly they were written but as to how you run them I was told by the gw help line and many others that all of the broadsides can take drones when equipped with A.S.S.

He read the rule and is now debating that you can only take one pair.

I've attempted to expand the debate because the rule is so poorly written that there is no RAW benefit to this wargear.

So come on over and chip in your two cents worth.

I'm arguing both that the rule by RAW doesn't convey any benefit

But if it does then all broadsides may take the drones.

Sorry for the interruption.

On-Topic

@JohnHwangDD- Precise and controlled is what makes it Tau in my opinion.

Orca Jungle/Urban Deepstriker:

F:12 S:11 R:10

Cost: 50pts
Crew: 3 Fire Warriors
Weapons: 3 Rail Rifles; 1 hull mounted on front controlled by pilot, 1 on each side mounted on a special sliding chair: all have 45 degree FOV.

Any unit that takes an Orca have the deepstrike special rule

Transport:
12 Models, not including kroot or vespid but including units equiped in XV suits (count as 2) and Human Auxiliaries. All drones attach to outside of hull.

Upgrades: May Take any upgrade currently in Codex: Tau Empire.

USR: Deepstrike transport/ fire suppourt. When Immobilized automatically deploys landing gear and maintains current position as if it were a drop pod.

History: Developed after the Taros campaign as a way of getting troops into a hot zone with fire suppourt. Originally scaled back in use by fire caste commanders, it has found use as a variation of the Mont'ka and the crews have adopted the motto;
If the fight won't come to you, we'll take you to the fight.

Dropped Price, don't know Pod Price as I haven't read SM codex yet, my bad.

@Jayden63: my "envisionment" is that when the enemy 'takes' the upper hand you can deepstrike mass troops behind him/her to catch said player in a cross fire, I made it like this to give them an alternative mavouverability to mech armies or to suppourt them. Might make it so 2 pathfinder squads can replace it as the required devilfish.

Off Topic:
@ focusedfire: Any tau squad that can take a drone controller may take up to 2 PER drone controller regardless of movement type.
eg. An ethereal and honour guard can take 4 drones as both the Shas'ui and the Ethereal can take a drone controller.
P.S. can you link to said forum?

I hope its not too presumptuous to post a block of text as new as I am on the forum (lurked for a good few months), but here's my thoughts. I do play tau, by the way, but also a little IG, although most of it's with converted boxes and a shoe.

I'd like a lot of the non-vehicle units to stay about the same price. I'd rather see middle-of-the-road points cost instead of dirt cheap or eldar/necron expensive. Good solid models with excellent combined arms; basically the 'lowest' of the high-power-high-cost armies.

-A few extra commander suit options: Broadside wouldn't be terrible, but an XV2(2) would be even better. Perhaps at worst a different weapon set; the 25's plus a few new special issues
-Rapidfire on Rifles 15". Cover saves taken against Pulse Rifles fired in "heavy" (30" 1 shot) mode have a -1 penalty (think 'spy mask but weaker').
-Pulse Carbine Assault 2 18", or may fire a single EMP grenade out to 12 (or maybe 18?)". Probably a 1/game affair, with the rest of the EMPs being the melee 'nades.
-Plasma: down to 18/27 points for a suit, Assault 2 at 24".
-Ion technology diversified a little:
*Ion Lance: 60 S6 AP2 Heavy 2: Rolls as EMP strike instead of armour penetration against vehicles (if too powerful, make it unable to penetrate. If too weak, armor pen PLUS the EMP). Probably for the barracuda to take out other aircraft (it and the remora need some work, especially at those prices)
*Ion Cannon: Heavy 4, and now available on broadsides instead of Twin Rails
*Ion Rifle: 24" S5 AP3 assault 3: a special issue for commanders?

-Gun Drones: Troops, number in squadron increased from 4-8 to 4-10, but may only score/hold-objective while 6 or more models (the old 'not enough for a good network Ld rule from 3rd edition) in the squad. Keeps them cheap but very versatile, and a little better suited to tossing out at the enemy. Vehicle drones are of course no longer free KPs

-Hammerhead Railgun: A bit cheaper, and Twinlinked: I like the 'd3 against MC' wounds idea; a lot of its energy is probably lost in smaller targets from having punched too cleanly through. If 'too powerful', make the d3 only function if you didn't have to reroll the hit. Subs ignore cover. For vehicles, Lance.

-Broadside rails: Heavy 2, but no longer twinlinked, and weaker than the hammerhead

Vespid: I'd not change the gun, and instead have the claws be rending and give them something almost, but not quite, like an armour upgrade: How about that hard, pressure resistant chitin of theirs be a little more resilient than flak, but not as much as carapace, by simply allowing it its save against AP5? 4 or better still whack it (like those sternguard and many others), but they at least get their save against the ubiquitous weapon of what's supposed to be their primary target; the regular marine.
-Hammerhead itself: -20 to the cost
-Devilfish: -25, and lower cost of SMS upgrade to +10

One thing I have been thinking of: Battlesuits are too easily taken out by the breadth of S8+ weaponry appearing all over the place (triple-twinlinked-las at the price of an ionhead, anyone?) If T5 or eternal warrior would be too much, why not do what a lot of the wargear on battlesuits was evocative of: making them more vehicle-like? Could be something applied to maybe only shas'vre or higher.

Weapon Sacrifice (okay I'm terrible with names but at least its to the point): Multi-wound battlesuits suffering an unsaved(or failed save) instant-death attack may instead choose to sacrifice their most expensive weapon or support system (or maybe just weapon). Reduce the model to a single wound. The damaged system may no longer be used for the remainder of the game.

@ Krellnus- Here you go.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/235909.page

This debate started on the O'Shoavah v O'shaserra thread. Whitedragon provided a link to that thread in the first post on the YMDC thread.

He started the thread becase I invited him to. I didn't want to derail the other thread any further but wasn't going to throw this rule into the lime light because I don't kick armies or anything while its down.

IMO when its all said and done the rule is going to be useless when looked at by the RAW eye and the Tau will lose one of their few remaining tools.

@Nova-
Some very cool ideas there. I don't think you'll be able to sell a weakening of the broadside railgun, though.

I think boosting the Hammerheads Railguns stats is the way to go here. Take 2 railguns and stack them one on top of the other and you'll get what I'm looking for. A Heavy 2 Railgun.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm in favor of making the broadsides twin gunned also. Just not weakening their profile any. Epecially with what the IG is getting in the way of armor.

I like your concepts on the Ion tech. It may be a little to alien or difficult for GW to balance game wise. Did you have a chance to go through my Ion Cannon proposals?

I'm think a mixture of the two ideas might move the concept towards the center. I've had several different suggestions on the Ion tech and think that there may be a good composite idea waiting to happen.

If haven't read these ideas, well the thread is getting a little large.


Does any one think its time to start another thread on this? Maybe a Fix 5th ed Tau part II-What does the IG codex suggest for the next Tau codex.

Ah, don't get me wrong. I didn't mean as in 'making it weaker', just that it would be weaker from not being the same (improved) solid shot the hammerhead would get!

Edit: On ion weapons; you mean these?

Ion cannon, Yes S8. Have been proposing this for the Ion family of weapons:
Ion Cannon Range 48" S8 AP3 Heavy 3, rending
Cyclic Ion Blaster Range 24" S4 AP4 Assault 4, rending

Hm. I kinda like the 60 range; like the pulse's 30 and suggested 15's for its rapidfire It gives the tau a little flavor, having their own sets of rangebands. The 60" basically says "fark you" to the thousand and one lascannons in the game. I'd like to think of the 60" S7 AP3 as the baseline for ground ion, thus my suggestion for the 'lance' version.

I couldn't possibly agree more on the CIB; always been a fan of it myself but this would be just the switch it needs to make it a good commander weapon, not just a 'very special episode of burst cannon'. At 15-18 or so points for those stats it would be perfect.

Cluster Ion Cannon ("Grapeshot"): 30" S6 AP3 Heavy 1 (AA if apoc). Against ground targets, works like the old submunition; on a successful hit, small blast (nothing on a miss) of S3AP3 (not sure balancewise whether central target also gets that, probably shouldn't). Basically a quick 'hellgunning' of the area with whoever's at the very middle eating the converged part, fluffwise. I'd see this as replacing the FW "long burst cannons" on the Remora, for example (I think it'll probably show up as our light 'aircraft skimmer').

Oh, sorry for misinterpretting your intended meaning.

The last ideas I had for the Ion weapons line was something like this:

Ion Cannon: S8 AP3 Heavy 3 Rending Range 48"

Cyclic Ion Blaster: S4 AP4 Assault 4, rending range 18 or
" ......................"S4 AP5 Assault 6, rending range 18"


How could we combine these concepts with your ideas?

The Lance idea while cool sounds almost too Eldar. Instead, How about Ion warheads on the seeker missles that give them and additional EMP effect against vehicles?

Would those Ion Cannons on the Broadsides end up being Heavy 8?

How about The Ion lance rules for the Etherals Honorblades?

Your input please.


Edit for spacing

Ion Rifle: S5 AP3 Assault 3 OR AP2 Assault 2. Special issue; for the discerning marine hunting commander. 20 points oughta do it given cover nowadays (basically a commander plasma). The high rate of fire I'm thinking of comes with something a little more humble... the not-on-vehicles-anymore Burst Cannon.

When I suggested ion cannons on broadside, it was 1 cannon instead of the twin rails. otherwise, 8 shots, er, bit much don't ya think?

Instead of the CIB being a variable shot (24" S4 AP4 assault 4 rending is somehow perfect in my eyes for it), how about the venerable burst cannon? It can't just stay on vehicles, so they'll get something else anyways.

The EMP rule, I dunno. Eldar go for warp distortions and the like. Sure they have haywire grenades (and I'm all for EMP seekers by the way) but most of their 'specials' seem to be based on dimensional tech. This is more a "brute force" approach, just plain frying systems with what most other races consider spacecraft weaponry. Very Tau to me.


Burst Cannons:
For something unique, let's have its number of shots (its pulse, I like that all pulse is the same, its... fitting, somehow, for them, so still S5 AP5) be based on the model's BS. Bonuses to-hit from markerlights not counted of course for that, but now you really want a targetting array. Shas'Ui, BS3, 3 shots. Shas'O? Firestorm just got a whole lot messier. What's that? Targetting array would now work beyond 5? OW!

As a balancing factor if need be, weapon could be inaccurate, lowering effective BS by 1 for purposes only of the to-hit roll (but real BS is already there so a markerlight wouldn't buff your "4" up to 5 again). If not strong enough, increase shots. BS+1 shots at BS-1 to-hit. We can easily limit the markerlight/bonus factor to avoid breakage and keep it a trully "more dakka" feel by just making sure the wording on markerlights and other 'to hit' bonuses is limited by base, not 'current' at 5 or 6 or whatever it should be.

Thus: BS3, 3 shots at BS2. a LOT of room for markerlight help, not very good. but elites be BS4 now let's say.
4 shots at BS3. no real improvement, but again, markerlight support makes it nasty.
Shas'O: 5 shots at BS4. the hurting commences. What's that? A targetting array? 6 shots at BS5? Dirty!

Or, if you wanna go nuts, DOUBLE model's BS in shots, at -2 to hit. Can you say "shas'O with targetting array has 12 shots at BS4"? Might be way too much though, but hey, its easy to just put limits on it. its the ideas we want.
(edit: er, cleaned things up a little and answered a bit more)

We need someway of getting defensive weapons on our tanks. I like the idea that burst cannons (and bust cannons only) count as defensive weapons on tau tanks. Thus if you take a warfish with multi-tracker it can still move 12" and shoot all its guns. Hammerheads make you take a choice. If you upgrade to the SMS your stuck at 6" move to shoot all your shots, but if you leave the default burst cannons on you can get 12" move and shoot all your shots.

Having a S4 weapon in the Tau army just doesn't seem right unless its being used by one of the alien races. Tau tech is just too far advanced for the lowly S4. (did I really type that?)

Jayden-Just pointing out be cause your last post seems to suggest such. Devilfish can't take burst cannons.

How about the Airburst Fragmentaion projector as a deffensive weapon? I could really go for that.

I know, It's an imprecise large blast weapon but I've always imagined that the smart little bomblets are actually very precise and that the Large blast is just there range.

Umm... devilfish come with one. If you upgrade the drones to SMS your tank now has two primary weapons. Thus moving 12" and only shooting 1. That blows for a tank whos purpose has been to actually kill things rather than just move troops around.

Nova wrote:Ion Rifle: S5 AP3 Assault 3 OR AP2 Assault 2. Special issue; for the discerning marine hunting commander. 20 points oughta do it given cover nowadays (basically a commander plasma). The high rate of fire I'm thinking of comes with something a little more humble... the not-on-vehicles-anymore Burst Cannon.

Don't give up on the burstcannons yet. I think the Long-Barreled Burst Cannons are going to become available in the next Dex. Would be a heck of a weapon on a commander. I think the regular burst cannon could go up in rate of fire also.

Nova wrote:When I suggested ion cannons on broadside, it was 1 cannon instead of the twin rails. otherwise, 8 shots, er, bit much don't ya think?

You can never have to much. Take them down to 3 shots per gun 6 shots per suit, and make it special issue(One per army or commander only) with a target lock and there is a viable idea.(This is of course with the S8 rending)

Nova wrote:Instead of the CIB being a variable shot (24" S4 AP4 assault 4 rending is somehow perfect in my eyes for it), how about the venerable burst cannon? It can't just stay on vehicles, so they'll get something else anyways.

I think your wanting the Long-barreled burst cannon(as do I). Its stats are:
Long-Barreled Burst Cannon: S6 AP4 Assault 3 Range 36"

I could see it going up to assault 4 or twin cannons on the Hammerhead for 6 shots.

But yes The CIB should be as S4 AP4 assault 4. The 18" comes from the game designers feeing that the JSJ= minus 6-12" of range. Funny, they don't apply that on the eldar jetbikes when carrying shuricannons. I would love for the CIB to be range 24". I almost put it down like that but then tried to make the weapon like GW would.

Nova wrote:The EMP rule, I dunno. Eldar go for warp distortions and the like. Sure they have haywire grenades (and I'm all for EMP seekers by the way) but most of their 'specials' seem to be based on dimensional tech. This is more a "brute force" approach, just plain frying systems with what most other races consider spacecraft weaponry. Very Tau to me.

It's the ranged weapon lance rule. That is absolutlely Eldar. The only thing I see benefitting fron some form of Lance rule in the Tau would be the Etheral and even then it would make more sense for them to have Just a +2 to strength power weapon that also incorporates a stun effect.

I like the EMP effect idea, I'm just trying to figure what I feel would be the best fit.

As to the Ion weapons, Go down a size. Simple Ion Blaster. A one handed? weapon that has the following profile.
Ion Blaster: S4 AP4 assault1,*Emp Range 18"
*EMP- Againts any type of Jump-pack,Jet-pack, Bike or Jetbike a roll to wound of a six will cause them to stall and force the listed units to move as normal infantry for the next turn.(Maybe a table for multiples?)
Against vehicles any roll to pen of a 6 follows this table.
#of sixes per turn rolled:
1-Automatically stuns the vehicle for 1 turn
2-Vehicle stunned and immobilized for 1 turn
3-Vehicle stunned and immobilized for 2 turns
4-Vehicle stunned for 2 rounds and is immobilized for rest of game unless repairs can be made.
Any further 6's rolled give no additional benefit and Temporary turn based effects cannot be stacked to destroy weapons. Only if the vehicle is truly immobilized can subsequent immobilised results cause weapon destroyed. Turn based immobilized vehicles are auto hit in assault.

Nova wrote:Burst Cannons: (Modifying to shorten) A lot of cool ideas that are just a little overly complicated

Again, think about the Long-barreled variant.

@ Jayden- It sounded as if you were saying they could be taken as a secondary system. Thats what I was getting at.

We understand that they come with one standard. Your suggestion made me think you were trying to equip the secondary system with burst cannons, also.

Sorry for the confusion.



Edit for spelling

The FW ones are all regular pulse strength with 36", which would be okay for a Firestorm, but... where have you seen a 6/4?


Edit: by the way; my only mention of the actual lance rule was for hammerhead rails (and that's a suggestion from way earlier in the first pages of the thread). The 'ion lance' was very specifically not a typo in lacking it in the rules.

Have the Demiurg aux as a race and give them the ion tech as the fluff states they sold it to the Tau
BTW in 5e a defensive weapon is S4 or less (e.g. storm bolter, SMS) and Gun drones fire like passengers in open topped vehicle.

Nova-The 6/4 comes from Forge World IA3 Taros campain.

BTW, What do you think of the Ion blaster idea? I was thinking it would be a good weapon for a new Axilla race.

Oh yeah, I'm editing the entry to add new stuff that i forgot to put in before..

on IA3: I'd completely forgotten about those hammerhead turret options. Although given in 4th edition the regular ion is 5 points cheaper, well... Still, for a vehicle burst, it makes sense. Maybe a little less range; would probably be perfectly fine at 24". At 16 points for the pair, S6 AP4 Assault 2, 24" DEFENSIVE would be quite the steal, even.

if you mean the S4AP4 Assault 4 18" with an AP5 assault 5 mode, could definitely see that on an auxilary race. Kinda like what I was thinking for the ion rifle.

Instead of "special weapons", a lot could be done with "hey let's make this make sense" alternate fire. Like with a more accurate or reduced-cover single 'heavy' shot when firing pulse rifles, or perhaps even a tank main the skimmer can't QUITE devote full power to when moving, etcetera...

If done in a way so as to reward combined arms tactics, but balanced against the old point-denial style, we could have a lot of the Kauyon/Mont'Ka built up in that way. Completely opposite from Eldar too if done right: average not-really-specialised (but customisable) squads whose greatest power/specialist-abilities come from support (or supporting) others in the army.

Darn you Nova. You get me sold on the Idea of weapons with an EMP effect then you jump to reworking the old ones.(Grumble)

Yeah, The select/alternate fire modes idea was covered a few pages back. It's definitely a valid and very good idea.

Jayden63 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't like the Fail Safe Drones as listed. Too flexible and controllable. They should work like this:

Fail-Safe: Instead of making their close combat attacks, the Tau player may detonate the Drones. All Engaged models (Friendly and Enemy) suffer a SX AP6 hit, where X is the number of Drones in the unit at the time of detonation. Remove all Detonated Drones from combat.

This does a better job of trading a unit of Drones for an enemy unit.

You lost me with the friend and enemy part.

How much do these drones cost?

I don't see how that really helps keep the tau unit from dying. Hell even against just guardsmen its a pretty even trade off (since Tau never charge) the remaining guardsmen will still probably be enough to turn the HTH results into their favor.

Why, because they hit *everything* automatically? Oh wait, you wanted something that gives the Tau a free pass in HtH? Never mind.

I'd figure about the same as Shield Drones. Hitting everything is a good ability.

Huh? You can't split them off of or take a separate unit of them? Those would be the most obvious uses. Tactically, they are very strong, but you would have to use, you know, *Tactics*...

And the unit dying is pretty much the point of the unit - that's why they're suicide drones!

Actually, that may be an 'enemy' ability (for another, see current ethereal rule). Its a lot of hits, but extremely low strength. Even if X= 2x number of drones, that would still average to... maybe 4. you'd be exchanging a lot of points (how much will the drone cost?) to whack your guys with a higher chance of your tau dying than the enemy, or equal at best in most circumstances.

-Against a horde army, say, a mob of Boyz, An S2 (FW can have two drones) hit on each would wound and kill 1/6th, while wounding 1/3 of the Tau there (half of whom survive). Problem is, you need to kill at least 4 boys with this bang just to start passing above the worth of your 2 dead Fire Warriors. Chances are though that mob chews straight THROUGH the entire squad at I3 with its 30~90 S4 attacks, just before the warriors get to exchange their attacks for boomdronzes.

-Against power-armored armies, the lower save means more tau die than do marines/necrons/terminators, while still running into the problem that a lot of models will already be dead. Hell, imagine if just ONE terminator waltzes in, causing his attacks AND (he shrugs it off) hitting the rest of the squad with the drone's atta... wait, wasn't this supposed to be a Tau ability? Any 2~3+ save good-toughness IC is gonna LOVE these things!

Despite all these drawbacks, we'd be paying arms and legs for it, because of the (TECHNICALLY correct) potential a squad of stealth suits could do (at the cost of themselves and 10+ frakkin drones mind you) being the 'abusable' (pretty dumb waste of points if you ask me but, well, you know how it is) little melee trick tau can do. Even at 10 points a drone we've got something far too expensive for its real cost to us. Even though most squads can take just two.

Now, I don't DISLIKE the idea of an emergency drone or the like like that... but here's what I'd suggest it be instead: Flechette Dispenser drone. Just have it work exactly as the dispenser does for vehicles, but for the squad. It'll probably get whacked by the incoming army, but not before our little 10 point friend drops a wound against all of them on a 4+ for daring to assault those accompanied. Most likely a single shot per game (in which case 5 points seems appropriate), but a nasty thing that's affordable, without being something the enemy may simply abuse.

Alternatively: the drone functions similarly to a failsafe detonator, blast template and all. The first melee thrown at that squad of tau, After enemy models are moved, the drone gets exchanged with the Shas' model who'll cover the most as the center of a blast unless it itself already was in that position.
All models save the drone instantly fall back 1d6", and the drone blows with an S8 AP- blast, ending the melee prematurely, though catching any friendlies that were still too close in the blast. Presumably, your warriors will then proceed to cut them up in the upcomming shooting phase. Only problem is that unless this ability is 'hidden' (as in 'deployment') everyone just doesn't bother to assault: its not like many can't outshoot tau once in 12" range anyways. They'll just go after a different squad with their assaulters.


Now though; how about some more suggestions on special abilities? Not just weapons, but for alternate modes on old clunkers like the FW hammerhead turrets, and 'how do we keep'em safe from melee in a 5th ed world', preferably without too much reliance on the main book itself as then 6th ed would just wreck half the abilities like what happened this time. Flechette drones can be pretty cool, But how do we get our troops AWAY from combat when their I's so low there's no way hit&run is gonna work?

...Edited so its readable and added an alternative

Ah; here's an idea. One thing that's always rubbed me the wrong way is the Armour vs AP system. AP3 is no better against AP2 than AP- is: worse, in fact, as that's a lot of points compared to the sheer number of AP- weapons you could probably field with same strength for the cost. Cover compounds this whole issue terribly.

How about Tau instead do things in a more... realistic (er, if we can consider it that) way? How about we scrap half of our excellent-AP weapons, but instead churn out save reducers?

Say you take pulse-power as a base, but the weapons line (as in 'pulse' or 'bolt-': the types that go from pistol to tank gatlings) worsens armour saves (while still allowing most of them)?

example: AP6 instead of 5, but REDUCES enemy saves by 1. guardsmen a little better off than against regular pulse, as they have a 6+ against it. orks get cut clean through as usual. Marines and terminators suddenly have a bit of a problem. Scale up and out to the heavier/special versions, which perhaps reduce save by 2, and all of a sudden instead of plasma you've got something that truly represents ripping through the enemy. Those termies still get a 4+ save, but against a lot more incoming fire than if facing "plasma or bust".

My army still kicks butt, but then again I use Farsight, so no Insects or green jumping dudes!!!!!

Nova wrote:

How about Tau instead do things in a more... realistic (er, if we can consider it that) way? How about we scrap half of our excellent-AP weapons, but instead churn out save reducers?

Say you take pulse-power as a base, but the weapons line (as in 'pulse' or 'bolt-': the types that go from pistol to tank gatlings) worsens armour saves (while still allowing most of them)?
.

I believe this was a 2nd Edition Concept that just slowed the game down horribly. I may be wrong, it may be 3rd, but either way. (Pretty sure it is 2nd).

I fail to see how it would slow things down if done right.
"your save's one worse against these guns, so its 3+ for your termies, 4+ for that marine there."
"screw you! *rolls*"

Doesn't seem any more troublesome than rending. less, even, if on a simple weapon (I don't mean pulse-rifles themselves gaining this, but if its what everyone in a single squad has or can take, carbine like...) no more bookeeping than anything else. Or is poisoned weapons, melta or sniper too complex?

Nova wrote:I fail to see how it would slow things down if done right.
"your save's one worse against these guns, so its 3+ for your termies, 4+ for that marine there."
"screw you! *rolls*"

Doesn't seem any more troublesome than rending. less, even, if on a simple weapon (I don't mean pulse-rifles themselves gaining this, but if its what everyone in a single squad has or can take, carbine like...) no more bookeeping than anything else. Or is poisoned weapons, melta or sniper too complex?

Melta and sniper, and seeker for that matter are easy. Tau don't have poisoned weapons, so I can't speak to that. But, adding an older concept that would modify some amor saves, but perhaps not vehicle armor saves, and do X against cover, and Y against Invulnerable.....and so on. Very few people are capable of making the rules simple.

Piercing X:Armour saves better than the weapon's AP value are penalised by X when made against wounds caused by a weapon with this attribute. For example, a space marine (save 3+) wounded by an AP5 Piercing 1 weapon successfully saves against the wound on a 4+. The same weapon used against a guardsman (save 5+) would ignore his armour as the weapon's AP value negates the model's Armour save. An AP6 Piercing 1 weapon would still allow the guardsman a 6+ armour save, as AP is measured against the weapon before piercing modifiers are applied.

Piercing weapons have no additional effect against vehicles, cover or invulnerable saves, but never have AP-.

here. that's how I'd explain it in the rules, and it seems clear enough, even though I'm thoroughly inept at writing this stuff up.