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 Monkeysloth wrote:


Using Bones prices for other figures probably isn't very fair as Bryan, one of the head Reaper people, stated on their forums recently that the KSers paid for all the molds so they don't include the cost of tooling in their prices. If they did, he said, then Bones would be comparable in price with other plastic figures.

Ah, it's completely fair for me to make that comparison, as I backed Bones II and III so have earned my cheap Bones minis.

Although in the UK, both Frostgrave plastic Cultists (80p each) and Mantic plastic skeletons (60p each) work out much cheaper than Bones skeletons (about £1.95 each). If you want to build up your Army of Evil. Which I do.

Where's my discount, Bryan?!?

Anyway, the wider point is that Runewars is pricing itself out of the market for what looks like a good game and some OK (humans) to good (undead) minis, at least outside the USA. Assuming typical discounts, the starter set for Rune Wars is £80, against £60 for the Age of Sigmar starter and £40 for the Mantic starter. All of these contain miniatures as well as everything else you need to play, so the "but you get rules content too" argument is irrelevant. The Mantic starter has *twice as many* miniatures too; the GW is similar to the FFG one in terms of minis content.

I'm a-gonna break it down into a table:

...........................Mantic....................GW...............FFG
Price....................Low (10/10)............Mid (7/10).....High (5/10)
Minis (quality)......Fair-Good (6/10).....Good (8/10)..Fair-Good (6/10)
Minis (quantity)....High (10/10)............Mid (5/10).....Mid (5/10)
TOTAL.................26/30.......................20/30............16/30

(There's an element of personal taste to "quality" of course -- I'm aiming to be objective -- personally I prefer the look of both Mantic's and FFG's undead to most of the minis in the GW starter, but I can't deny the quality of the latter.)

Now the rules could push FFG's offering up. Let's be generous and assume that their rules are amazing and get a 9/10, as compared to say 5 for Mantic and 7 for AoS. They still end up scoring the worst out of the bunch! And in general, for miniatures wargamers, although we complain about the rules all the time, the rules are the least important factor in deciding whether to get into a new game. Probably the most important is the chance of getting a game in -- something that Mantic and GW still do better on, right now. Even if the rules for Runewars are *so good* that they render all other fantasy wargaming obsolete -- certainly possible -- they are going to struggle to prove that. Who are they selling to? The boardgames market that fancies minis games but doesn't want to paint... has X-Wing. The boardgames market that fancies minis games and is contemplating learning to paint, may well jump on this -- in fact that is probably FFG's best hope for a market for this -- but I suspect that is quite a small market, too small to drive the success of a new fantasy minis wargame. The established miniatures wargamer *has already got* a bunch of built and painted generic fantasy human army dudes and skeletons. We are tentatively interested in the new game, but probably not if it involves painting a bunch of new, different generic fantasy human army dudes and skeletons that can be used only for this game, and if we can't use our existing armies here.

Man, if you're the new kid on the block, you better be REALLY good! And at the very least your starter set has to look at least as good value as your rivals.

you give Mantic a "5" for rules and AoS a "7" ? I would flip those...KoW is a very clean and tight set of rules.

fightcitymayor on BGG posted this review of the game:

I've seen the secret selection of your action (the first dial) and actions followed in an initiative order in the Eurogame Havana, but it sounds like a mechanic not seen in most miniature wargames?

You can also modify your secret selection (the second dial), such as selecting a different movement template.




More reviews: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=runewars+miniatures+game+review

tpryan01 wrote:
you give Mantic a "5" for rules and AoS a "7" ? I would flip those...KoW is a very clean and tight set of rules.

Well, I did say "say a 5" -- recognising that personal taste is a big factor here. I like and play KoW but I do agree with the criticism that it's a bit flavourless.

ced1106 wrote:
fightcitymayor on BGG posted this review of the game:

I've seen the secret selection of your action (the first dial) and actions followed in an initiative order in the Eurogame Havana, but it sounds like a mechanic not seen in most miniature wargames?

You can also modify your secret selection (the second dial), such as selecting a different movement template.




More reviews: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=runewars+miniatures+game+review

When laid out like that, unpainted and everything, it really doesn't seem like much for 80 pounds

The worm rider miniature is missing

Yikes, that is not much miniature content for the price point. I don't like the aesthetics of the miniatures either, so I am a solid nope on this one despite being very intrigued by the hidden orders part of game play.

I have have to admit I was skeptical of this at first. I came to adepticon though and got a demo of the game from FF and it was a lot of fun. They dished out a lot of support for the game and everyone who got swag bags got a copy. Really looking forward to playing this game with my son. The aesthetics are a little on the cartoony side but with a good paint job they look amazing. Especially the undead.

I like the aesthetics of the undead, other than the worm which seems a bit small and lacklustre compared to Reaper's Mashaaf:



The humans are too cartoony/WoW-ish for my personal tastes. Glad to hear the game itself is good. I think if they release the bases separately, I will buy a starter, at least, but I'm still iffy about the expansion cost if they don't release the bases separately.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


I initially thought it looked a bit of fun, but then realised just how many cards etc I ended up with for X-Wing and decided one game like that will do for me. I'll stick with my old GW figures and the KoW rules for good fun quick games.

Yep same here. As much as I love X-Wing as a game it's just too damn filled with clutter such as various dials, cards and tokens and templates which I don't think add all that much to the experience other than to detract from the visual aspect of the game. This seems to be the case with all FFG games in general and as a result I've little interest in Rune Wars. I think I now prefer my games to be 'cleaner'.

Gallahad wrote:Yikes, that is not much miniature content for the price point. I don't like the aesthetics of the miniatures either, so I am a solid nope on this one despite being very intrigued by the hidden orders part of game play.

I am the same. Money is limited and with 40K coming out with a new edition, or Age of Sigmar, I will have my money go there since there is nothing here saying "BUY ME" over the others. Age of Sigmar is getting cartoony now, and don't want another system that is cartoony as well. Guess it will really end up is my player base will get into it or not. Nobody is playing X wing here so I take this will be a no. People here already invested in 40K/AoS they don't want to try a new system sadly for me.

I'm on the fence about the tokens, dials, etc... in regards to them cluttering things.

In some ways they simplify things and reduce bookkeeping. Things like ongoing effects, wound markers, etc... are things that nearly every game has anyway, whether they actually include them or not. How many times do you see some sort of dice, scrap of paper, or token in a game of AoS or 40k tracking wounds, turns, objectives, or an ongoing effect? I actually appreciate that FFG includes all necessary gaming aids with their games; it gives me an easy, precessional looking way to represent things.

The way they use cards for everything also means I rarely have to consult a rule book during a game - all the rules are right in front of me. Again, though, more clutter.

This game in particular has those huge dual dials. I think what I am probably going to do is mark my units with small numerical tokens and keep the dials on the side board alongside their unit cards.

Hey guys - my first post here on Dakka, so be kind!

Have been following Runewars TMG with quiet optimism since it's announcement back at GenCon 2016. In scouring the internet for more discussion I happened across this thread, which I've just read all 13 pages of and signed up to post in.

I can completely understand the amount of trepidation, due to:

1) OK, but not great miniatures
2) Under-developed and potentially generic IP/Universe
3) Most users in here being 'veteran' miniature wargamers - and particularly dominated by GW, WHFB, 40K, Mantic, PP etc etc

But whilst that's all valid, I think a lot of people are missing the point here with Runewars TMG.

I think FFG aims to market the game to:

- Ex WHFB/AoS players
- Existing X-Wing/Armada/Imperial Assault players
- Gamers who know first hand FFG's games and trust their products - but haven't yet gotten into minis games
- Gamers who haven't played any sort of minis games

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second. Ultimately, just like FFG's other minis games. Where Runewars will be successful is in appealing to the parts of the market as listed above, and in providing an experience 'similar' to WHFB or AoS, but backed up by a robust and accessible Organised Play system, with a competitive list-building elements, supported by an excellent, slick rule-set.

Whereas GW games are first and foremost about the amazing minis, and the hobby aspects, and occasionally actually playing the games themselves - this will be about collecting an army, building lists and playing frequently in weekly/monthly tournaments.

And yes, the expansions are a bit expensive for the lower than GW quality minis, but I still think this game is very competitively priced for what you can get. By my count you can get x2 Cores, and x1 of every announced expansion for £400-450 - this will give you 140 minis (around £2.80 per mini), 2 full armies with around 250 points of minis to choose from (standard games are played with 200 point lists) plus a ton of upgrade cards which probably push it to around 300+ points per side.

So 2 full tournament level armies, with around 150% of what you need for a list, for around £400~

EDIT: Oh and for those that are interested - people that got copies at AdeptiCon, have shared the entire rulebook - here's the link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8RHvYOnOE8ZRVQxSFlkM0R4dkk

And here's Sorastro's first video of some painting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGwuoxuJ4U

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.

All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.

jonboyjon1990 wrote:
This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.

You pay for all the cards and dials!
And you'll frequently will have to get new stuff, just to be able to compete. Do you know anybody who bought some ships from waves 1-3 in X-Wing and was able to compete for any amount of time?
Not that different from getting new rulesbooks every so often ...

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.

All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.

So how much does FFG pay you to spew this?

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:
This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.

You pay for all the cards and dials!
And you'll frequently will have to get new stuff, just to be able to compete. Do you know anybody who bought some ships from waves 1-3 in X-Wing and was able to compete for any amount of time?
Not that different from getting new rulesbooks every so often ...

I thought GW Rules were around £50 for the core rules and around £35 for a single army's rules? More than a core of Runewars

Lord Kragan wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

But on the other hand its the great game system that packs out games store every week, huge regionals every month and 8 massive 400+ player tournaments every year.

All I'm saying is that for many GW players - 80-90% of the focus is on the making and painting; on the hobby. Actual playing of the games is an ideal that comes to fruition a few times a year. This game isn't marketed at them. This is for people that want a decent, simple ruleset (that you don't have to pay for), that won't change every year or so and will enable 'lifestyle' gaming.

So how much does FFG pay you to spew this?

Hey man, I'm just adding to the discussion - everyone seemed to be having a nice discussion about this game, I was just coming in to the forum to add to that. My view of the game is probably a bit more FFG-friendly, but I'm just trying to add a different viewpoint.

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

This is very true. Conversations in the game store i own start with "Oooh, those are the Star Wars models i heard about, and i heard there is a game you can play with them".

Players get into xwing because of the models, the background, the love of star wars. They play the game because it's Star Wars and they own the models.

I don't see Rune Wars getting this huge boost of players. RW will live or die based on how people like the models and rules. Judged without the benefit of a huge franchise.

 mikhaila wrote:

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

This is very true. Conversations in the game store i own start with "Oooh, those are the Star Wars models i heard about, and i heard there is a game you can play with them".

Players get into xwing because of the models, the background, the love of star wars. They play the game because it's Star Wars and they own the models.

I don't see Rune Wars getting this huge boost of players. RW will live or die based on how people like the models and rules. Judged without the benefit of a huge franchise.

Well you kind of agree with my point then. X-wing draws people in with the minis and IP, and keeps them with the fantastic rules.

RW will draw people in with FFG's well built reputation for successful games, successful minis games, great OP, some people's needs for a 'better' rank and file game, and keep them with the fantastic rules.

I'm not sure there is enough of a draw yet to get people to spend £500 on minis, speaking as someone who likes the minis enough that I'd happily own at least the undead half of the set. I hope the game turns out to be good, and I hope that it gets enough of a critical mass to start running as many tournaments as X-Wing... but I'm kinda doubtful, and unlikely to even buy the starter set till I see some reviews and see whether the game really takes off in the UK.

FFG has a reputation all right, but not necessarily a good one. Ask anyone looking for the new Arkham Horror game or their Destiny dice game. They have serious supply problems. If that happens with Runewars, they are done. Already the release date has been pushed back from end of March to mid April.

Smellingsalts wrote:
FFG has a reputation all right, but not necessarily a good one. Ask anyone looking for the new Arkham Horror game or their Destiny dice game. They have serious supply problems. If that happens with Runewars, they are done. Already the release date has been pushed back from end of March to mid April.

I've noticed this about FFG. I absolutely love Mansions of Madness, but if you want the newest expansion, you damn well better pre-order it!

Some of the ships for X-Wing were out of print for months, sometimes close to a year.
That is a really bad situation for a fledgling game to be in.

Only reason people were so patient was because ... Star Wars.
Terrinoth?
Don't think so.

Another danger with FFG is their editors. Some are pretty solid, but some have had some really glaring errors, like when two adjacent paragraphs contradict each other, or all sorts of scenario problems. I've never looked to see if there's a pattern to good or bad editors (maybe all the bad jobs are done by newbs or something), but some are quite terribly edited.

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

Yes although the playing communities and tournaments only prospered because the rules are well constructed and feel so.. Clean (think thats the best way to put it?)

Combined with the lovely miniatures and Star Wars setting its no surprise the game has prospered.

Rune Wars will definitely have its work cut out, but if they make a good ruleset and back it up with a stream of release I think they have a change of picking up newbies and also those Still left floating from the whfb purge.

 Pacific wrote:

Mutter wrote:

jonboyjon1990 wrote:

I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

Almost all the people I know bought the X-Wing stuff mainly for the miniatures, rules were only a distant second.
This will not happen with Runewars.

Yes although the playing communities and tournaments only prospered because the rules are well constructed and feel so.. Clean (think thats the best way to put it?)

Combined with the lovely miniatures and Star Wars setting its no surprise the game has prospered.

Rune Wars will definitely have its work cut out, but if they make a good ruleset and back it up with a stream of release I think they have a change of picking up newbies and also those Still left floating from the whfb purge.

Yup, Kirby went and hunted down WHFB players, killing them in the thousands. It's about as dramatic as yours.

2 years later there's almost nothing left, which is what irks me. Virtually everyone has either rebounded to AoS, moved on to 9th age/KoW or is playing the editions they love. Runewars has nothing to offer to that crowd by now.

> - Ex WHFB/AoS players

Aren't they playing other generic fantasy "rank and file" games like Kings of War, or other miniature wargames like Warmachine?

> - Existing X-Wing/Armada/Imperial Assault players

Why should they play RW when they're spending their gaming budget on Star Wars games?

> - Gamers who know first hand FFG's games and trust their products - but haven't yet gotten into minis games

Why should they play miniatures games when they can play FFG boardgames? FFG boardgames are expensive and, like Star Wars, by the time you buy them you don't have much money left for a miniatures wargame.

> - Gamers who haven't played any sort of minis games

Why should they play a miniatures game when there are plenty of less expensive boardgames out there that require no assembly?

> I think the FFG CEO himself said in the GenCon Keynote speech, that this is a game where the rules come first and miniatures come second.

That's a big mistake, as anyone who's seen a CMON KS will tell you.

> Whereas GW games are first and foremost about the amazing minis, and the hobby aspects, and occasionally actually playing the games themselves - this will be about collecting an army, building lists and playing frequently in weekly/monthly tournaments.

Why would boardgamers, who have never done this, want to do it? Why would miniature gamers, who already are invested in their games, do this for another system?

> And yes, the expansions are a bit expensive for the lower than GW quality minis, but I still think this game is very competitively priced for what you can get.

But, if you're already playing a miniatures game, why not buy more miniatures for it?

> EDIT: Oh and for those that are interested - people that got copies at AdeptiCon, have shared the entire rulebook - here's the link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8RHvYOnOE8ZRVQxSFlkM0R4dkk

I guess once they start playing and show that they will *continue* playing, that will be a good sign. I'm not saying you should not play RW, but I think Dakkanauts should wait to see if an audience builds up before deciding to buy this game.

As a newbie wargamer I think ced hits the key points. Unless the game is very unique (e.g. Star Wars) it really needs to emphasize the community aspects over rules or miniatures. I assume that the tabletop community is near-zero-sum: to gain a player, often another game will have to lose them. For a new game to compete it needs to demonstrate a healthy strategy for growing/maintaining its community. Rules and minis don't matter if no one is taking that initial "leap" to play with them.

Good points above.

I enjoyed playing it at Gencon 2016 and if they had it on sale then and there id have bought 2 cores in a second.

After getting a year to wait and review and see how they will price it, I will pass. I just don't see this going far.

I like the world a lot, as I love Battlelore 2nd edition.

I play many minis games, far to many really from GW, Warlords, FFG, Hawk, etc, etc and Runewars price point for the quality and quantity isn't worth it.

As someone else said, people play X Wing for the minis. It has a huge name, prepainted, and easy to play. This is a far smaller name in popularity, unpainted, needs assembled and far more complex as far as tactics go (while this can be good, its not easy for people to jump into) It would be far easier to play Kings of War rules and get whatever minis you want then go into this. I really recommend KoW at 6mm scale, as its cheap as dirt, lets you play mass battles quickly and is easy to learn.(Plus most 6mm is single piece glue on base and a cake walk to paint)