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Combi weapons as we know it are extinct. Good riddance.

They were only ever taken to spam Special weapons cheaply. I'm sure one of the main reasons they were dropped was the fact that Plasma was the only option ever used, and that left grav, and flamer wasting sprue space, and Melta was only used on Suicide deepstrike units. I have sooo many combi weapon bitz from kits over the years, and I don't even play Space Marine Firstborn.

It's no longer a Special Weapon with free bolter attached!! Now it's a bolter with a digital weapon attached.

Only, huh?

Ok then...

So far it seems many army stratagems have been very strongly defensive focused. These are what have been in battle reports for nids:


Stratagems:

Adrenal Surge: Either one unit, or two units within Synapse deal critical hits on a 5+ rather than a 6.

Death Frenzy: Fight on death 4+.

Endless Swarm 1CP: Restore D3+3 models to a swarm unit, or two swarm units within synapse range.

Rapid Regeneration 1CP: A unit gains a 6+ Feel No Pain, or a 5+ Feel No Pain if within Synapse.

Overun: A unit can consolidate 6” instead of 3”.

Synaptic Insight 1CP: Select a unit or two units within Synapse and select a Hyper Adaptation. That Hyper Adaptation is active for those units.

Enhancements:

5+ Feel no Pain, or a 4+ Feel no Pain if they’ve taken a wound.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So far it seems many army stratagems have been very strongly defensive focused. These are what have been in battle reports for nids:


Stratagems:

Adrenal Surge: Either one unit, or two units within Synapse deal critical hits on a 5+ rather than a 6.

Death Frenzy: Fight on death 4+.

Endless Swarm 1CP: Restore D3+3 models to a swarm unit, or two swarm units within synapse range.

Rapid Regeneration 1CP: A unit gains a 6+ Feel No Pain, or a 5+ Feel No Pain if within Synapse.

Overun: A unit can consolidate 6” instead of 3”.

Synaptic Insight 1CP: Select a unit or two units within Synapse and select a Hyper Adaptation. That Hyper Adaptation is active for those units.

Enhancements:

5+ Feel no Pain, or a 4+ Feel no Pain if they’ve taken a wound.

Probably because we've seen them strip native defensive abilities on almost everything, and didn't want that on a bunch of units on top of the already crunched weapon stats and abundance of cover. It could also be that the detachment rule for Nids is purely offensive, so they had a suite of defensive buffs? We saw a mix with IG.

Which is quite interesting when you think about it. Generally if you're designing to have defensive abilities require an abstracted situational cost (Command Points) it's because you don't want them as a permanent defensive boost because you are worried about a unit being too strong or unkillable.

And I can't really think of too many units in 9th that were unkillable. Instead I remember all the units getting the Wound cap per phase because they were dying too fast. Granted 10th aims to be a different game with reduced lethality but I have found it puzzling the defensive shift to stratagems over unit profiles. I suspect that Daemon Primarchs, C'Tan, and even Phoenix Lord (with their T3 bodyguards) will die just as quickly without their "Can take only X Wounds per phase" ability. I'm not the biggest fan of that rule from a game immersion perspective but it did feel like a necessary band-aid in 9th.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
.
Now it's a bolter with a digital weapon attached.

But that's not what it is, and now it's significantly worse compared to just the basic Bolter in many ways. Keep convincing yourself this was a good thing though LOL

Tyel wrote:
I think its a reasonable observation that in an edition that's meant to be less lethal, the Fire Prism looks bonkers.

I mean someone can check my maths - but 8/9*8/9*35/36*35/36 means you have around a 74.68% chance of one-shotting a rival Fire Prism. And doing more damage if we assume the underslung gun contributes anything. Or put another way - around 3 "goes" out of 4, it works 100% of the time.

I don't know what a Fire Prism's points are - but if you are "expecting" a 75%~ return - which "most of the time" is a 100% return, that's 9th edition level lethality.

"Its fine, just go MSU" is a reasonable response - and typically how I play. But it doesn't change the above.

Why does it get re-rolls to hit and to wound?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Combi weapons as we know it are extinct. Good riddance.

They were only ever taken to spam Special weapons cheaply. I'm sure one of the main reasons they were dropped was the fact that Plasma was the only option ever used, and that left grav, and flamer wasting sprue space, and Melta was only used on Suicide deepstrike units. I have sooo many combi weapon bitz from kits over the years, and I don't even play Space Marine Firstborn.

It's no longer a Special Weapon with free bolter attached!! Now it's a bolter with a digital weapon attached.

Combi weapons are the biggest travesty to be shown on a datasheet so far. The consolidation is anything but well implemented.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
.
Now it's a bolter with a digital weapon attached.

But that's not what it is, and now it's significantly worse compared to just the basic Bolter in many ways. Keep convincing yourself this was a good thing though LOL

It's not a good thing.
But it's definitely not significantly worse than just a basic bolter....

 vict0988 wrote:
Why does it get re-rolls to hit and to wound?

It gets to reroll one hit and one wound from the Eldar detachment ability (Unparalleled Foresight) and reroll one hit and wound roll from its datasheet ability (Crystal Matrix).

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Combi weapons as we know it are extinct. Good riddance.

They were only ever taken to spam Special weapons cheaply. I'm sure one of the main reasons they were dropped was the fact that Plasma was the only option ever used, and that left grav, and flamer wasting sprue space, and Melta was only used on Suicide deepstrike units. I have sooo many combi weapon bitz from kits over the years, and I don't even play Space Marine Firstborn.

It's no longer a Special Weapon with free bolter attached!! Now it's a bolter with a digital weapon attached.

Combi weapons are the biggest travesty to be shown on a datasheet so far. The consolidation is anything but well implemented.

Consolidating power weapons back to one profile I get. They all do the same thing “make you stab better” with slight specialities. Swords math better into MEQ, axes vs. higher armor, mauls v. higher T. But fundamentally do the same job. Same with all the bolters. Massed small arms, with situational pros/cons.

Combi weapons don’t. They swing from adding AV firepower to horde clearing. What flavor of combi weapon you were packing drastically changed what you could threaten. I come from the old school of thought were you matched the sarge’s combi to the tactical squad’s special. And from an era where you needed to scrounge to find the right one. I’ve got all types in my company, and have used them well over the years. With this new consolidated profile, I might drop them from the squads. They don’t help them do what they need to do particuarly well most of the time, and are an extra profile that needs to be rolled, taking up game time for minimal gains.

We’ll see how things end up. Mixed feelings about what was cut. They went too far in some spots, maybe not far enough in others.

 Insectum7 wrote:

My spark of hope is that someone else makes a good game that gains popularity where we can use our 40k armies in the ways that we want to.

I'd like to take a moment to talk to you about our lord and saviour, Grimdark Future...
https://www.onepagerules.com/games/grimdark-future

Combis shouldve been

"X models can take a boltgun and a weapon from the special weapons list"

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Combis shouldve been

"X models can take a boltgun and a weapon from the special weapons list"

And that's the thing that kills me- how easy it would have been to get right.

When a problem is complex, you can cut the devs some slack for not getting it right. But when the solution to a problem is as simple as this solution was, it's hard to figure out how the mistake was made.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
But that's not what it is, and now it's significantly worse compared to just the basic Bolter in many ways. Keep convincing yourself this was a good thing though LOL

The Sternguard Bolt Rifle is super dope though. I think it represents the 'Bolter Specialist' really well. I did see an extreme hopium post on reddit that thought Combi-Bolters still have access to upgrades with stats on that 'armory sheet' and that this is just a dumbed down datasheet.

PenitentJake wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Combis shouldve been

"X models can take a boltgun and a weapon from the special weapons list"

And that's the thing that kills me- how easy it would have been to get right.

When a problem is complex, you can cut the devs some slack for not getting it right. But when the solution to a problem is as simple as this solution was, it's hard to figure out how the mistake was made.

Cut a step out, just allow squad leaders/certain units to endlessly take special weapons, people aren't interested in the bolter half anyway.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

My spark of hope is that someone else makes a good game that gains popularity where we can use our 40k armies in the ways that we want to.

I'd like to take a moment to talk to you about our lord and saviour, Grimdark Future...
https://www.onepagerules.com/games/grimdark-future

Yeah, I've played a number of games. It's decent, fun, and an interesting/refreshing way of doing things. But it's also lacking in some areas, making it not quite what I'm looking for.

But I support it wholeheartedly. It's great to see alternatives pop up.

From reddit -

Marine strats and enhancements

Stratagems are as follows;

Storm of Fire 1CP: In the shooting phase, a unit gains ignores cover, or ignores cover and an extra AP if in Devastator Doctrine

Squad Tactics: At the end of the opponent’s move phase, if any enemy units are within 9” of a friendly unit, that unit can move D6 inches and not in engagement range, or 6” and not in engagement range in Tactical Doctrine.

Honour the Chapter 1CP: In the fight phase, a unit gains Lance (+1 to wound if unit charged), or Lance and an extra AP in the assault doctrine.

Armour of Contempt 1CP: When a unit is targeted for an attack, worsen attacks by 1 AP until the end of the phase.

Only in Death Does Duty End 2CP: When a unit is targeted in the fight phase, activate this stratagem. If a model would be destroyed, don’t remove them. At the end of the opponent’s attacks, you may fight with your destroyed models before removing them.

Adaptive Strategy: In your command phase select a unit, and select a doctrine. This doctrine is active for this unit until your next command phase

No CP, sorry. As for Enhancements;

Honour of Vehement: One of the model’s melee weapons gains +1 strength and attacks or +2 strength and attacks if in assault doctrine.

Artificer armour: Model gains 2+ save and 5+ Feel No Pain.

Bolter Discipline: Bearer’s unit gains Sustained hits. Not sure of value, probably Sustained Hits 1.

Adept of the Codex: Either bearer’s unit counts as in Tactical Doctrine, or you can select the doctrine at the beginning of the game. Not sure if this overrides the actual doctrine.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Squad Tactics: At the end of the opponent’s move phase, if any enemy units are within 9” of a friendly unit, that unit can move D6 inches and not in engagement range, or 6” and not in engagement range in Tactical Doctrine.

I liked this ability in 30k too so I welcome its appearance in 40k.

Goddamn, the melee weapon enhancment is so mid compared to getting a 5+++

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Goddamn, the melee weapon enhancment is so mid compared to getting a 5+++

It'll probably be less points at least.

There are no points for Enhancements. Your army can have up to three unique enhancements, one per character and not on Epic Heroes.

 alextroy wrote:
There are no points for Enhancements. Your army can have up to three unique enhancements, one per character and not on Epic Heroes.

Eldar v Guard exhibition game, 13:38:30 in the stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1835751854?t=13h38m30s

"Do they cost points?"
"They cost points, that's how you do enhancements. Enhancements are just points, they are a native part of army building."

 Trickstick wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
There are no points for Enhancements. Your army can have up to three unique enhancements, one per character and not on Epic Heroes.

Eldar v Guard exhibition game, 13:38:30 in the stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1835751854?t=13h38m30s

"Do they cost points?"
"They cost points, that's how you do enhancements. Enhancements are just points, they are a native part of army building."

Before they said that enhancements were free but now they are saying they cost points.

Classic GW.

 KingGarland wrote:
Before they said that enhancements were free but now they are saying they cost points.

Classic GW.

Where did they say that they were free? I know we had the "3 only, no doubling up" sort of rules in the reveal, but I don't remember them explicitly stating that they were free.

 Trickstick wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Before they said that enhancements were free but now they are saying they cost points.

Classic GW.

Where did they say that they were free? I know we had the "3 only, no doubling up" sort of rules in the reveal, but I don't remember them explicitly stating that they were free.

If they're not free why bother with an arbitrary restriction on how many you can take?

Dudeface wrote:
If they're not free why bother with an arbitrary restriction on how many you can take?

I guess because otherwise people would spam the best ones? At which point they would have to be increased in cost significantly. By making them single takes, the price can be low enough to not be prohibitive.

 Trickstick wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If they're not free why bother with an arbitrary restriction on how many you can take?

I guess because otherwise people would spam the best ones? At which point they would have to be increased in cost significantly. By making them single takes, the price can be low enough to not be prohibitive.

Sorry I mean the max of 3, I understand the no duplicates, but even then there shouldn't be a "best one" if costed correctly.

First thought is to stop people not thinking and just taking all 4? I don't know.

 Trickstick wrote:
First thought is to stop people not thinking and just taking all 4? I don't know.

Being able to take 3 out of 4 is sort of a no-man's-land - There's little difference between 3 and 4 at 2K - But if you can take four everybody usually would. I'd say that's really the issue: 3 of 4. 3 of 6 starts sounding different. If you can only take 3 of 6, then you're starting to make choices and plans. At 3 of 4 sounds like you're just going to skip the stupid one anyway.