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firstly, if this has been done before then i'm sorry for reposting but i can't really find another so i'm just gonna start this one. i remember the old codex used to recquire at least a couple of inquisitors plus their retinue and other non gk units to be a good competitive list . so how about the new codex? it seems much more viable now but i can't really seem to find a really good one that is really well balanced since the model count is always too small or models are not tough enough to take a good shooty/assaulty list. can someone help me make a balanced list with pure gk if possible? because i really like the gk models and the fluff behind them. also is it possible to do without dreadnoughts ? i just like a gk characteristic list with only things gk have.

The new codex follows the design ethos followed by all the 5th edition books and as such is basically overflowing with competitive builds. Even if you limit yourself to only using Grey Knight units you still have plenty of options. Crowe with Purifiers, MSU/Razorspam with Strike Squads, Paladin or Terminator based builds, Stormraven builds, the list goes on. Not using Dreads is definitely viable, you lose out on the long range shooting which is hard to replace, but you can take Dreadknights for the same kind of price and overload on close ranged threats if thats the way you want to go.

that's exactly what i thought but i can't seem to make one that looks right to me, all the lists i create have a lot of problems

Two things to consider.

1. Yes, a GK army is competitive. All the folks leaning towards henchmen and inquisitors are basically recreating an army that we already have (IG) who does it better, and for less points.

2. Grey Knights have the tools and variability to bring an answer to everything. The problem that a lot of folks have is getting too wrapped up in one facet of the army to the exclusion of all others.

My Wraith-Wing Necrons have gotten to walk all over several GK armies now because they're like "My army has STR7+1 Autocannons!" and "My Psycannons are STR7 rending!" Well, my monoliths don't give a flying feth. When you have zero weapons or one weapon (or even two weapons) in your entire army that can hurt me....you're gonna lose. =p

GK can be competitive, but to me - a competitive army is one that has the tools to deal with every other army out there, not one that has the tools to deal with most armies, and dismisses others because of the unlikely chance of running into them.


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Powerguy wrote:The new codex follows the design ethos followed by all the 5th edition books and as such is basically overflowing with competitive builds. Even if you limit yourself to only using Grey Knight units you still have plenty of options. Crowe with Purifiers, MSU/Razorspam with Strike Squads, Paladin or Terminator based builds, Stormraven builds, the list goes on. Not using Dreads is definitely viable, you lose out on the long range shooting which is hard to replace, but you can take Dreadknights for the same kind of price and overload on close ranged threats if thats the way you want to go.

I think for 170 points or so, a Grandmaster needs more attention. The ability to give D3 units a special power - from creating scouts to making scoring dreadnoughts - is something that is being far too overlooked.

yeah i heard of that before, it's called a water list right? problem is ,if you haven't noticed already, i'm a newbie so i really have no idea on how to create one, and i don't have the funding to do trial and error

GK does seem like a good codex.

I think it would be wrong to overload everything in one super unit since this is an MSU world and it works badly. (I am thinking of draigo and 15 paladins etc.)

As a tyranid player I have compared the dreadknight with trygons a lott (the trygon is mutch more killy and 2 more wounds, but the knight has a 2+/5++ (potensialy 4++ with the sword) and it can get some good ranged weaponds, and it can instant kill things, if he gets the hammer he is as srtrong as a carnifex) and I am compering the autocannon dreads/"devestator squad" with hive guards, witch is some of the better units in the tyranid codex. Although all of those 3 are in heavy suport I defenativly think a lott of GK builds can be very good. (Remember, a list only is as good as it's player.)

I am also thinking the ghost knight squad at 400 seems very cool if you want an agressive list (perhaps one or two jump pack squads to preshure one of the flanks, this sort of list leads to a dreadnought list to open transports on the side you want to flank.)

I can certanly see many builds as competive, but you need to think deployment and attack strategy vs a) a list that shoots better then you, since you will have to come to them b) a list that wants to reach your front lines, since you want to soften them up before the big fight. (In short, if you invest a lott of points into getting 3 dreadknights shunting over in the scout move, then that is quite bad if your oponent wants to be in cc with you anyway.)

GK are good in CC, but your main consert is mech, and then the 24" range (since they can move 12" they can kite you.) You need to break that hegomony eather with movement or with some sort of range (dreadnoughts.)

A good list should probably have a lott of psycannons in it (monoliths aside) so you could do some mathhammer on the best place to get them, vs survival of the unit etc.

In short it is a very exiting codex. Start with a concept, find out what sort of heavy suport choise that best suports this, chose an HQ that suports this theme (do not go overboard here! as this is a tempting point sink) and get some good troops to suport. (Scoring terminators withouth a logan/belial supercharge is very dangerush!)

Then instead of focusing on posting asking if something can be competitive, read the PLETHORA of GK threads floating around here. Literally half the threads on the top page of all Dakka subforums related to 40k are about GK right now. Go solicit advice in one of those threads, read some of the posted lists, check out the army list section and read comments posted on GK lists, learn who is worth listening to and who is not, solicit their own input onto your own thoughts on a list, get that list assembled, get on Vassal and test it out against different armies, tweak it to where you want it to be until you are comfortable with it, then start acquiring the models to build your list.

What you're doing NOW is not only simply a copy of half the other threads tossed up here on Dakka by people trying to get something to stick, but not productively structured towards the end you've said you're trying to achieve.

lol i don't think dreadknightsl get a 4+ invul. but i think i get your point, haven't been to a lot of fights though ( 2 with friends using the old codex) so i don't really have a good idea on how the other armies work

A cool waterlist:

Mordrak 200
5 Ghost knights, w (1 banner, 2 halberds, 2 swords) 225

Grey Knight Terminator Squad: 10, 2 psycannons, 4 halberds, 2 hammers, 450

GK strike Squad: 10, 2 psycannons, demon hammer, Rhino 270

GK strike squad: 5, psycannon
Razorback, psybolt amunition 160

GK Intersceptor Squad 10, 2 psycannons, justicar hammer, 290

1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135
1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135
1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135

2000 points:

Deploy mordrak on one side, shunt to the same place and start laying down autocannon fire on that place.

Combat squad the terminators, have the razorback staying back to keep home objective.

A very cool list, I do not know how competetive it is.

Niiai wrote:A cool waterlist:

Mordrak 200
5 Ghost knights, w (1 banner, 2 halberds, 2 swords) 225

Grey Knight Terminator Squad: 10, 2 psycannons, 4 halberds, 2 hammers, 450

GK strike Squad: 10, 2 psycannons, demon hammer, Rhino 270

GK strike squad: 5, psycannon
Razorback, psybolt amunition 160

GK Intersceptor Squad 10, 2 psycannons, justicar hammer, 290

1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135
1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135
1 Dreadnought, atocannon psycannon 135

2000 points:

Deploy mordrak on one side, shunt to the same place and start laying down autocannon fire on that place.

Combat squad the terminators, have the razorback staying back to keep home objective.

A very cool list, I do not know how competetive it is.

Not very. Ghost knights just don't do much. You can't get them anything good, and mordrak doesn't really do much either. His first to the fray ability would be nice, but its just a bad version of deathwing assault.
Also, regular GK termies aren't the most efficient in the world, you are essentially paying 450 pts for 2 cannons... you can get 2 cannons on 2+ armor (though not scoring) with 5 paladins, which have same number of wounds and are better WS, for 315 pts.

Also, Cool Water is a fragrance. Water warrior was an annoying and pretentious article on how to play conservatively and re actively (to make up for he legion of downsides to playing GKs). This list doesn't have any of the protective elements in water list to be able to use its techniques. This isn't a water list, its just not a good list.

how bad/good is this then?

HQ
draigo
+ (5 paladins with 2 psycannons, brotherhood banner)
castellan crowe

TROOPS
10 purifiers with 2 psycannons, psybolts, 6 falchions , 1 hammer.
+rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer, teleporter
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer,teleporter

tried to include both fast attack a powerful core and good horde control ( could be combat squading the purifiers)

It's not very efficient. You're paying the Crowe tax for a single squad, and Draigo is doing nothing for this list beyond being Draigo and pulling in one min squad of Paladins.

Try this instead:

GKGM - psychotroke grenades, blind grenades
Terminator Inquisitor w/Psycannon

2x5 GKST, psycannon, psyback
10 GKTs, Daemonhammer, 2x psycannon

2x5 Purifiers, 2x psycannon, psyback

2x Psyfleman Dreads

??? - about 300 points to spend as you want on DKs, psyflemen, or interceptor squads, or more purifiers/GKST

GKGM with termies and inquisitors makes for a 12 paladin CC deathstar. With 3 Relentless psycannons and 2 daemonhammers (plus inq daemonhammer) and supergrenades it can crush most anything in CC.

4 mobile PA squads in good transports for fast psycannon deployment

2 Psyfle dreads, who can take cover behind the psybacks

I like to add a Dreadknight so that, if I go first, I can scout the DK and the Termies (so that Termies can get into psycannon range from T1) and the DK can do his scout shunt to go WTFPWN an AV14 vehicle or a LF/Def squad.

If your list can be tabled by the oldest codex in 40k, the least effective, the most point inefficient, overcosted, mandatory crap units without losing a SINGLE MODEL...

Then your list probably isn't competitive.

Scouting Dreadknight gets 5 S10 attacks against Monolith #1.

GKTs get more S10.

If Necrons are really a problem in your meta, use your extra 100 points to toss more Daemonhammers in.

If you're going for the competative balanced build...just stay away from the psyfl dreads...

They're just one of those hit or miss units like all terminators armies and razorback spam...

lolplox wrote:how bad/good is this then?

HQ
draigo
+ (5 paladins with 2 psycannons, brotherhood banner)
castellan crowe

TROOPS
10 purifiers with 2 psycannons, psybolts, 6 falchions , 1 hammer.
+rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer, teleporter
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer,teleporter

tried to include both fast attack a powerful core and good horde control ( could be combat squading the purifiers)

only 1 troop choice, you need 2 to play the game.
further if those 10 models die you will have to table your opponent to win.

Exergy wrote:

lolplox wrote:how bad/good is this then?

HQ
draigo
+ (5 paladins with 2 psycannons, brotherhood banner)
castellan crowe

TROOPS
10 purifiers with 2 psycannons, psybolts, 6 falchions , 1 hammer.
+rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer, teleporter
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer,teleporter

tried to include both fast attack a powerful core and good horde control ( could be combat squading the purifiers)

only 1 troop choice, you need 2 to play the game.
further if those 10 models die you will have to table your opponent to win.

you missed the paladins and grand strategy


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lolplox wrote:how bad/good is this then?

HQ
draigo
+ (5 paladins with 2 psycannons, brotherhood banner)
castellan crowe

TROOPS
10 purifiers with 2 psycannons, psybolts, 6 falchions , 1 hammer.
+rhino

FAST ATTACK
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer
5 interceptors with 1 psycannon and 1 hammer

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer, teleporter
dreadknight with heavy psycannon , gattling psilencer , hammer,teleporter

tried to include both fast attack a powerful core and good horde control ( could be combat squading the purifiers)

to maximize the effectiveness of each unit

lose the banner on the paladins

lose the falchions and put in halberds on the purifiers...add one hammer

combine the two interceptor squads...lose psycannons and take psybolt ammo

dreadknights should lose hammers and teleportors in favor of a more shooty role...give them swords if you wish...take heavy psycannon instead of gatling psilencer

I am not quite sure how many points you have left but you should have a good chunk that was dedicated to non essential upgrades

personally i would trade draigos paladins for normal terminators...and still use draigo...

ductvader wrote:If you're going for the competative balanced build...just stay away from the psyfl dreads...

Total advice fail. Psydreads are cost effective, versatile long range fire support.

In a codex totally lacking in cost effective, versatile long range fire support.

Add that there really isn't that much competition for the Heavy slot (what, 3 Landraiders? lewl) and psyfle dreads are a no-brainer.

ductvader wrote:

you missed the paladins and grand strategy

makes them count as troops for claiming objectives, not for force orginization

Draigo make them troops.

I am just having a hard time seing paladins at a cost eficient way of getting psycannons. Mind you if the meta has a lott of melta guns you can on theory castle up and try to shoot everything melta before it gets into range.

There are not that many lascannons these days, so perhaps of you castled up with paladins and the walkers you can have a 2+ army. The reason melta is soo good vs mech is that it is one shot one kill. VS paladins you "only" kill 55 points, and they have a save and they can shoot back.

Seems cool to mee. What the paladin list do not like is of course the demonilisher cannons, but I do not know how many of those that are around. AT 1750/2000 you can not both get paladins and psyker for stealth.

GKs are a army with all the tools to be competitive.

an army with some anti-psychic defense can crimp their style as much of it requires a psychic test, but thats not a huge deal.

all their squads can deal with Av14 in CC(hammerhand can make a Deamonhammer Str10)


Str7 rending psycannons are deadly to tanks and infantry(Monos are dealt with by Deamonhammers or ignored)

@ Dash -

So your WraithWing rapes GK? What list were you up against? I don't care if I cannot take down a monolith easily. I can ignore it easily. Seriously at 1500 points I'm toying with ...

1 Str6 heavy 36"
3 Str7 AP2 heavy blast 36"
2 Str10 assaults
1 Str6 AP5 heavy 36"
1 Str5 AP4 template
2 Str9 AP2 heavy 48"
TL 12 Str8 AP4 heavy 2 48”
7/14 Str7 AP4 rending assault/heavy 24"
TL 15 Str6 AP4 heavy 36"

Good luck with that. BTW, it's got 25 marines and only three troop slots which admittedly is a bit low but still. I admit that I haven't tested against Necrons yet and I know they could play for a draw by just popping in an out of dual monoliths at 1500 but I don't see GK over matched. Enlighten me.

Psyfledreads may not be compulsory but they are competitive and are now in all my lists. GK function by having fire power at many different ranges. I use only one henchman squad but I add Jokaeros for las digital. I use a hellrifle, bolterbacks and ML chims to get 36" range and psycannons turn two onwards for mid field dominance when I get there. I do use Inquisition but I could use Ven and Psfle for an equal amount of 48" goodness maintaining the pure GK theme.

Dash is a really good competitive player who knows his army in and out.

Gks have only been out for a short time and the player likely hadn't gotten the feel of the army yet, or was a bandwagoning newb who has little to no expierience at all.

Grey Templar wrote:GKs are a army with all the tools to be competitive.

an army with some anti-psychic defense can crimp their style as much of it requires a psychic test, but thats not a huge deal.

all their squads can deal with Av14 in CC(hammerhand can make a Deamonhammer Str10)


Str7 rending psycannons are deadly to tanks and infantry(Monos are dealt with by Deamonhammers or ignored)

Exactly. I don't know how he came to the conclusion that gks sucks just because he tabled one player who didn't understand a brand new codex.

Strength 10 hammers, auto-penning warp rift from librarians, and the turbo shot rounds from vindicare assassins (yes those DO work against living metal, they were faq'ed back in the day and nothing has changed that)

They have something that can deal with anything. They don't suck, nor are they over powered; they are just a difficult army for most people to play effectively

Yes indeed. Bad lists and poor play don't make a weak army. Not saying that GK are better than SW, BA, IG etc. Just saying that they are hardly little sisters to their big brothers.

I don't think DoP is saying that gk's are not competitive.

But if you don't know what you are doing with the codex, you will get your arse handed to you.

imweasel wrote:
But if you don't know what you are doing with the codex, you will get your arse handed to you.

Pretty much the case with any codex...not just GK.

felixcat wrote:@ Dash -

So your WraithWing rapes GK? What list were you up against? I don't care if I cannot take down a monolith easily. I can ignore it easily. Seriously at 1500 points I'm toying with ...

1 Str6 heavy 36"
3 Str7 AP2 heavy blast 36"
2 Str10 assaults
1 Str6 AP5 heavy 36"
1 Str5 AP4 template
2 Str9 AP2 heavy 48"
TL 12 Str8 AP4 heavy 2 48”
7/14 Str7 AP4 rending assault/heavy 24"
TL 15 Str6 AP4 heavy 36"

Good luck with that. BTW, it's got 25 marines and only three troop slots which admittedly is a bit low but still. I admit that I haven't tested against Necrons yet and I know they could play for a draw by just popping in an out of dual monoliths at 1500 but I don't see GK over matched. Enlighten me.

Psyfledreads may not be compulsory but they are competitive and are now in all my lists. GK function by having fire power at many different ranges. I use only one henchman squad but I add Jokaeros for las digital. I use a hellrifle, bolterbacks and ML chims to get 36" range and psycannons turn two onwards for mid field dominance when I get there. I do use Inquisition but I could use Ven and Psfle for an equal amount of 48" goodness maintaining the pure GK theme.

Would you mind posting your actual army list? It sounds interesting

wow thanks guys , i'll see how i go about the list and maybe post a new one here. sad though , psyflemen dreads seem to be too important to leave out. was really hoping to leave out those for dreadknights because the dreadknight models are awesome and they are pretty scary when they start hitting things