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NOTE: This thread is merely intended to provide a philosophical discussion of a rules loophole, as well as some amusement at the expense of GW's rules writing staff. Unless otherwise specifically stated, do not assume that anyone posting in this thread would actually USE the rules in this manner unless GW says it was their intent to allow such. Also, I apologize if this has already been discussed. I looked through about 15 pages of threads and didn't see anything relating to this.

The Summoning states the following:
This power can be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, choose a friendly non-vehicle unit that is not locked in combat anywhere on the battlefield. The chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules.

Grey knights vehicles can take an upgrade allowing them to be the target of The Summoning, thus allowing a Librarian to summon vehicles from anywhere on the board to their location, and those Vehicles are considered to have moved Flat-Out.

So my question is this. Can the Librarian choose to cast The Summoning while embarked on a Storm Raven, and target that Storm Raven, then place the Storm Raven anywhere on the battlefield? It's impossible for the Storm Raven to be more than 6" from a Librarian embarked inside of it (We already have a precedent that for the purpose of Psychic Powers and Wargear used from within a Transport, the hull of the transport is used for all measurements), so the moment you place the Storm Raven anywhere on the battlefield, it is instantly within 6" of its own hull. Since the Librarian moves with the vehicle, this would seem to allow for infinite distances of teleportation.

Some amusing things that can be done with this:
-The Storm Raven moved Flat-Out, so passengers inside can use Shadow Skies to disembark immediately anywhere on the battlefield.
-You can use the Teleport to move yourself to the exact spot you started, but still be considered to have moved Flat-Out. This can be used to gain a cover save and still fire one weapon if you are in a good firing position.
-First-Turn Multi-Melta shots via Power of the Machine Spirit.
-Amusingly enough, a Teleport Homer does not work to prevent scatter since it lists specific models that it works for (Strike Squads, Interceptor Squads, and models wearing Terminator Armor). However, if it were possible to use it on a vehicle, the Storm Raven could potentially use its own Teleport Homer to avoid scatter. The only requirement is that the Teleport Homer be on the battlefield at the start of the turn, and the model be placed within the proper distance of the Teleport Homer. A Storm Raven is always within 6" of it's own hull.
-If this actually works, it could potentially be used without the vehicles. The Librarian can target his own unit (which meets the requirements), and the moment they are placed on the battlefield they are within 6" of the Librarian. If the Librarian also has a Teleport Homer, the unit could use it to avoid scatter.

Anyway, I just thought this was an amusing loophole in the codex. I don't expect it to actually work, but I will be interested to see if they correct it in the errata.

-The storm raven is removed from the table and then placed. It moved into reserves and then immediately deep striked in. This means it didn't actually move anywere but the exact point it deep struck in at. So you could only disembark right there.

-Yes thats completely vaild

-The power of the machine spirit rule state it can override rules for firing for combat and cruising speed. Nothing for flat out, thus you cannot fire any weapons as the vehicle moved flat out

-The storm raven is technically not on the table when measuring to the teleport homer would occur, but the rules don't care it would seem

-My brain hurts

But yes, new codex, needs FAQ and I need more tylenol.

Do most people believe that this is something that can be done?

Wouldn't we presume that without a Librarian on the table you could not fulfill the step of "immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules"? Without the Librarian on the table I would question what Librarian are you placing it down within 6" of.

Majesticgoat wrote:Do most people believe that this is something that can be done?

Wouldn't we presume that without a Librarian on the table you could not fulfill the step of "immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules"? Without the Librarian on the table I would question what Librarian are you placing it down within 6" of.

You place the unit anywhere on the table. The moment they are placed, they are withing 6" of the Librarian, because the Librarian is attached to the unit or embarked in the vehicle being summoned. The idea is that since the Librarian is in the unit being summoned, he qualifies the unit being withing 6" of him as soon as they are placed on the battlefield, allowing them to be placed anywhere. Similarly he qualifies the unit to use his own Teleport Homer, because he is placed within 6" of himself (and by proxy so is the unit he joins), and it was on the board at the start of the turn.

As for most people believing that this is something that can be done, I cannot say. A friend and I were discussing the rules for Summoning the other night and came across this, and were wondering if by the RAW it worked. Clearly neither of us would actually claim such a thing in game, but it's fun to discuss the possibility. I would use it if GW said it worked that way, but otherwise I would assume it goes against intent and not use it.

You cannot use it on his own squad.

When using the Deepstrike rules, you place ONE model as a marker, then check for scatter, etc. You then place the unit. At the time you place the model you are not within 6" of the librarian, as he is off the table.

You cannot place the librarian, as you cannot measure 6" between the unit and the librarian - you can only measure between units, not to yourself.

Cant see a problem with the Stormraven, rules wise

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot use it on his own squad.

When using the Deepstrike rules, you place ONE model as a marker, then check for scatter, etc. You then place the unit. At the time you place the model you are not within 6" of the librarian, as he is off the table.

You cannot place the librarian, as you cannot measure 6" between the unit and the librarian - you can only measure between units, not to yourself.

Cant see a problem with the Stormraven, rules wise

Right, so you place the Librarian as the marker. He is within 6" of himself, which allows the unit to be deployed anywhere. You then check for scatter, and since he is within 6" of himself, he uses his own Teleport Homer to avoid scattering. The rest of the unit is then placed in a circle around him.

juraigamer wrote:-The power of the machine spirit rule state it can override rules for firing for combat and cruising speed. Nothing for flat out, thus you cannot fire any weapons as the vehicle moved flat out

The above is incorrect, Flat out is treated the same as cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast. P.70


As for "-The Storm Raven moved Flat-Out, so passengers inside can use Shadow Skies to disembark immediately anywhere on the battlefield."

the storm raven has to actually physically move over a point on the battlefield to use the skies of blood deployment, so this does not work.

As for "-You can use the Teleport to move yourself to the exact spot you started, but still be considered to have moved Flat-Out. This can be used to gain a cover save and still fire one weapon if you are in a good firing position."

if you can not find a better, or just as good shooting solution by moving 12-24 inches then there is something wrong, but you can move 7" one way and 7" back to the same spot to move flat out to gain the cover save. (RAW)

"-First-Turn Multi-Melta shots via Power of the Machine Spirit. " this is and has always been possible.

As for "Can the Librarian choose to cast The Summoning while embarked on a Storm Raven, and target that Storm Raven, then place the Storm Raven anywhere on the battlefield?" In short no. you have to place the vehicle within 6" of the Librarian, since the librarian is not on the table you can not place the vehicle anywhere. so RAW if you use The summoning on a vehicle you are embarked in, the game breaks.

Aldarrion - find a rule to measure to yourself. You can only measure between units, or to other models in your unit. "but its obvious" does not apply when youre trying to loophole something.

Teleport homers, oddly enough, only work with Teleport. Summoning /= Teleport.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Aldarrion - find a rule to measure to yourself. You can only measure between units, or to other models in your unit. "but its obvious" does not apply when youre trying to loophole something.

Just because you cannot measure to yourself does not mean you cannot be within 6" of yourself. Legal placement of the Librarian is within a 6" radius of himself. Anywhere he is placed would be within this 6" radius, since it stems from him.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Teleport homers, oddly enough, only work with Teleport. Summoning /= Teleport.

Having read over the Teleport Homer entry again, you are correct, which is very strange. Why else would they give a Librarian the option of taking a Teleport Homer if it did not affect The Summoning? Similar, why would a Storm Raven take a Teleport Homer except to allow models Deep Striking via Shadow Skies/Skies of Blood to do so without scatter? Seems like a bit of an oversight.

It does not work. It does not say to place them anywhere on the field, it says you can choose a unit from anywhere on the field. The placement of the unit is very specific to being anywhere within 6" of the Librarian. You'd not be able to place the Librarian in a Valkyrie if he was the one casting it because your Librarian has no position after he was removed. He would be in pseudo-reserve/off the table pending placement.

The chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules.

Aldarion - measuring in the rulebook is very well defined. What you are doing cannot be performed according to the measuring rules.

It is so you can put the libby with mordrak and have them deepstrike near you, starting turn 2

nosferatu1001 wrote:Aldarion - measuring in the rulebook is very well defined. What you are doing cannot be performed according to the measuring rules.

It is so you can put the libby with mordrak and have them deepstrike near you, starting turn 2

My question is why does there have to be a measurement here? A model cannot possibly be more than 0" from itself. By definition, the Librarian is within the acceptable distance and thus no measurement is required.

As for the Libby + Mordrak thing, that makes sense. It's an interesting idea I will need to explore later.

Majesticgoat wrote:It does not work. It does not say to place them anywhere on the field, it says you can choose a unit from anywhere on the field. The placement of the unit is very specific to being anywhere within 6" of the Librarian. You'd not be able to place the Librarian in a Valkyrie if he was the one casting it because your Librarian has no position after he was removed. He would be in pseudo-reserve/off the table pending placement.

The chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules.

The Librarian is removed and then immediately placed. The moment he is placed, he is within 6" of himself. Basically, he can be placed anywhere because he IS the Librarian casting the power, and so if the power affects him, he places himself within 6" of himself, which means he can be placed anywhere.

Once again, I would like to reiterate that this is simply an exercise in the semantics of the rules. I don't intent to use it this way unless of course GW gives it the green light, which seems very unlikely. I'm simply making the philosophical argument that a model is always within a certain distance of itself (specifically, a model is always 0" from itself), and thus qualifies itself for anything that requires it to be within a certain distance of itself. GW does not define this, and thus if it is necessary for a model to check range to itself, it is impossible within the current rules. Other games I have seen tend to have a rule that states a model is always considered to be within a certain distance of itself for effects that require such, which removes this type of argument from the game.

For the record, a simple addition to the rules for Summoning would completely negate this. If it read: This power can be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, choose a friendly non-vehicle unit that is not locked in combat anywhere on the battlefield. The chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules. The Librarian and any unit he is joined to, as well as any vehicle he is embarked upon, may not be the target of this power then it would ensure no such conflicts occurred. GW likely didn't foresee this in their playtesting, and thus did not include it.

Because, as I said: when tryuing to RAW loophole, you must follow ALL the rules. And the rules do not let you measure to yourself.

No "clearly" allowed: RAW you cannot do the RAW loophole youre trying for.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because, as I said: when tryuing to RAW loophole, you must follow ALL the rules. And the rules do not let you measure to yourself.

No "clearly" allowed: RAW you cannot do the RAW loophole youre trying for.

I'll buy that.

So it begs the question, why has GW not included a rule or statement that a model is within a certain distance of itself? They seem to prefer to complicate the wording of abilities/auras to include the model using them rather than just allowing models to affect themselves via distance.

For example, the Blood Chalice. It states that the Sanguinary Priest and any unit he joins has FNP and Furious Charge. It goes on to say that all units with a model within 6" of the Sanguinary Priest gain these bonuses. Why not just say "All friendly units within 6" of a model with a Blood Chalice gain the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain Universal Special Rules"? If the Sanguinary Priest were considered to be within 6" of himself (which is impossible within the current rules), then this simple line would be sufficient, and there would be no need to add a line that states the Sanguinary Priest and his Unit also receive these bonuses.

This is something I very much hope they fix in 6th edition.

Aldarionn wrote:
The Librarian is removed and then immediately placed. The moment he is placed, he is within 6" of himself. Basically, he can be placed anywhere because he IS the Librarian casting the power, and so if the power affects him, he places himself within 6" of himself, which means he can be placed anywhere.

If you remove the Stormraven from the table, you can not possibly place it within 6" of the librarian, since the Librarian is not on the table.

The very act of placing requires you to essentially target the librarian, measure a 6" bubble and place the unit within that bubble.

The rule works as written, not "Simple additions to the rules" needed.

That is a liberal interpretation. I read it as though we must place him anywhere within 6" of the Librarian, not place him anywhere so long as he is 6" from the Librarian after being placed.

I agree that this cannot be done. Once pulled off the table the key element is that you HAVE to place it within 6" of THE Librarian using the power but he isn't on the table.

DeathReaper wrote:

juraigamer wrote:-The power of the machine spirit rule state it can override rules for firing for combat and cruising speed. Nothing for flat out, thus you cannot fire any weapons as the vehicle moved flat out

The above is incorrect, Flat out is treated the same as cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast. P.70

Good to know, thanks. I don't exactly play spaz marines much.

The reason this requires some form of errata is that while, as has been determined, the Librarian cannot be placed on the table after casting the power, he CAN cast it on himself, a unit he has joined, or a transport in which he has embarked. The models are removed from the table and cannot be placed, so what happens? Can they be held in reserve and then rolled for as normal? Are they treated as casualties?

Of course, 99.9% of all situations would make it a bad idea for a Librarian to destroy himself in this way, but I'm sure someone will think up a game breaking idea to use it to their advantage. Having a possible situation arise from a voluntary action that has no resolution within the rules, even if the outcome is bad for the player involved, is not a good thing to have, and so I think this needs attention.

If they cannot be placed on the table, every other instance where this occurs results in the unit being destroyed.

Every other instance of models committing suicide is strictly prohibited, or not the result of a voluntary action with the exception of Karamazov's ability to target his own units and Commissars ability to execute squad members. In each of those cases, there is a clear rule allowing it and it specifically states it's possible. This is the first unintended ability to commit suicide that I have seen result from a voluntary action.

For instance, a Librarian cannot get out of assault range of an enemy unit. On their turn, the assault move would put them in range to contest an objective. As such, the Librarian Summons himself, removing himself from the game and leaving the enemy unit unable to gain the extra movement for assaulting him, and unable to contest the objective. I guess one could make the argument that the Librarian sacrificed himself in order to preserve the chapter's victory, and the confusion of his disappearance forestalled the enemy charge long enough for his battle brothers to secure the objective, but I'm not sure GW intends to allow intentional suicide as a means of victory.

Either way, the ability as written just seems odd.

It really isnt

If you choose to DS directly on impassable terrain, and roll a hit, you WILL mishap and have a 1/3rd chance of dying as a result