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In the humble opinion of Dakka if you were a veteran player and knew your way around the game what do you feel is currently the most difficult army to be successful with in tournaments and in general play? What reasons would you give and is the major reason the relative age of the codex and if it is a current army is it a rule set, etc.

This is not meant to be which army sucks - there may be armies out there that are just not really playable right now and this is a question meant more as if you wanted to challenge a skilled vet what army do you think they would have the most trouble playing with on a competitve level - this implies the army has legs it just takes skill and experience to make it work.

Anything but IG, SW, BA, WH, Nec and Tyr?

DE, Tau, and Eldar.

All three require synergy and strategy. And all three are easily tabled (eldar a little less so) if you make a mistake.

The hardest to do well in a tourney is necrons. Their old codex has overinflated prices for everything, that was balanced with older vehicle damage tables. They are really resilient though it is hard to translate that into winning missions. Lack of anti tank ability, slow models, and a stupid rule (phase out) means that you have to play very conservatively.

Next is the eldar armies, as finesse is more difficult play style to master than the war of attrition play style that IoM armies favor (guard has more guns and men, marines are resilient and have strong weapon options).

After that is the orks and nids. Both have major flaws in their army lists, crowed FOC slots, problems with anti tank ect. Add to that they don't have much in the way of good saves, so they rely on mass to grind the opponent down after restricting their movement options by the size of the force they field.

Im going to go with Demons since there is so much of their army that is random and out of your control. In addition you are playing at half strength for the first turn.

ObiFett wrote:DE, Tau, and Eldar.

All three require synergy and strategy. And all three are easily tabled (eldar a little less so) if you make a mistake.

I'm not aiming this at ObiFett specifically, or really at all, but seriously. I've seen and heard this said so many times. Frankly it just seems like crap.

I'll admit to never having played with any of these armies because this is not a troll post, but really, when people say this to me it always comes out "I need to play a race of less physically imposing stature and dubious culture because I'm not man enough to be an ultramarine. My army is harder to play because my guys aren't space marines. Not that an eldar couldn't beat a space marine in a fight because it's really more about agility" etc, etc...

It's all dice and range estimates and thinking ahead. What makes them so different from any other codex (I assume by army we mean codex and not subcategories like cron horde and scout rush)? Because I'm not really buying the "easy to table if you make a mistake" thing.

Almarine wrote:

ObiFett wrote:DE, Tau, and Eldar.

All three require synergy and strategy. And all three are easily tabled (eldar a little less so) if you make a mistake.

I'm not aiming this at ObiFett specifically, or really at all, but seriously. I've seen and heard this said so many times. Frankly it just seems like crap.

I'll admit to never having played with any of these armies because this is not a troll post, but really, when people say this to me it always comes out "I need to play a race of less physically imposing stature and dubious culture because I'm not man enough to be an ultramarine. My army is harder to play because my guys aren't space marines. Not that an eldar couldn't beat a space marine in a fight because it's really more about agility" etc, etc...

It's all dice and range estimates and thinking ahead. What makes them so different from any other codex (I assume by army we mean codex and not subcategories like cron horde and scout rush)? Because I'm not really buying the "easy to table if you make a mistake" thing.

Most MEQ armies don't require multiple units working synergistically together in a single turn or phase because you have relatively versatile units. With Eldar, your units are relatively weak, but when you work in the psychic boosts they can actually be quite powerful. Seer Councils would be a joke without Embolden, Enhance, Fortune, etc. War Walkers with 2x Scatter Lasers are nice. Guide them and it's even nicer. Bladestorming a squad of Terminators isn't going to do much. On the other hand, if you Guide the DA and Doom the Terminators, you're probably going to see results. This is the explanation for Eldar.


Eldar has a lot of maneuverability, but it's not maneuverability in the sense of Rhinos or Battle Wagons: Eldar have to play by a direction other than "STRAIGHT AHEAD!!!". Eldar assault elements are pretty pathetic, even Banshees. When you mathhammer out the damage that they'll actually inflict, it's pretty weak. So you need maneuverability to put the right units in the right place at the right time, then GTFO of there before the hammer comes down on them.

There are a lot of questions being asked here.

The hardest army to reliably win competitive games with is probably necrons, as it's simply the weakest codex.

The army that requires the most skill to win with, but can actually win? probably either nids or DE.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Most MEQ armies don't require multiple units working synergistically together in a single turn or phase because you have relatively versatile units. With Eldar, your units are relatively weak, but when you work in the psychic boosts they can actually be quite powerful. Seer Councils would be a joke without Embolden, Enhance, Fortune, etc. War Walkers with 2x Scatter Lasers are nice. Guide them and it's even nicer. Bladestorming a squad of Terminators isn't going to do much. On the other hand, if you Guide the DA and Doom the Terminators, you're probably going to see results. This is the explanation for Eldar.


Eldar has a lot of maneuverability, but it's not maneuverability in the sense of Rhinos or Battle Wagons: Eldar have to play by a direction other than "STRAIGHT AHEAD!!!". Eldar assault elements are pretty pathetic, even Banshees. When you mathhammer out the damage that they'll actually inflict, it's pretty weak. So you need maneuverability to put the right units in the right place at the right time, then GTFO of there before the hammer comes down on them.

Tau are similar in regards to why they are hard to play.

Everything in my army has to work together. It takes 2-3 units to kill (hopefully) one unit of my enemy's army. This is in contrast to the fact that all it takes is one unit of my enemy to get into close combat to kill ANY one (or multiple) units in my army.

One mistake (target priority miscalculation, letting the enemy get into CC, etc) and the killing power of my army drops considerably.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Most MEQ armies don't require multiple units working synergistically together in a single turn or phase because you have relatively versatile units. With Eldar, your units are relatively weak, but when you work in the psychic boosts they can actually be quite powerful. Seer Councils would be a joke without Embolden, Enhance, Fortune, etc. War Walkers with 2x Scatter Lasers are nice. Guide them and it's even nicer. Bladestorming a squad of Terminators isn't going to do much. On the other hand, if you Guide the DA and Doom the Terminators, you're probably going to see results. This is the explanation for Eldar.

I'm not saying eldar don't have a lot of filthy xeno tricks (on the contrary). I just don't see what's so difficult about it. It's not exactly hard to pay the points for a farseer.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Eldar has a lot of maneuverability, but it's not maneuverability in the sense of Rhinos or Battle Wagons: Eldar have to play by a direction other than "STRAIGHT AHEAD!!!". Eldar assault elements are pretty pathetic, even Banshees. When you mathhammer out the damage that they'll actually inflict, it's pretty weak. So you need maneuverability to put the right units in the right place at the right time, then GTFO of there before the hammer comes down on them.

So you're saying eldar can't go straight ahead, they have to employ hit and run tactics and take advantage of their superior speed because they don't have the resilience of a marine unit.

Okay, I'd buy that, if it were true. Eldar have less than stellar toughness and save compared to MEQ, but the inverse can be said about their transports. The resilience of an avenger unit (or whatever) is lower than that of a tactical squad, but the resilience of their movement speed is way higher. This makes it actually easier to get eldar where they need to be when they need to be there.

In fact, deploying and maneuvering eldar/DE is probably much easier than rhino-based forces as they can probably move wherever they need in a single turn and can't really be outmaneuvered unless their transport is blown.

ObiFett wrote:Tau are similar in regards to why they are hard to play.

Everything in my army has to work together. It takes 2-3 units to kill (hopefully) one unit of my enemy's army. This is in contrast to the fact that all it takes is one unit of my enemy to get into close combat to kill ANY one (or multiple) units in my army.

One mistake (target priority miscalculation, letting the enemy get into CC, etc) and the killing power of my army drops considerably.

Now, maybe my dice are cursed or something but with my marines, I frequently need more than two units to kill an enemy unit. They may all wear the same armour or they may even be duplicate units but you know. It happens to everyone, probably.

That said, I think tau might actually be a pretty difficult army to run successfully. However, I don't believe it's because they are a more complicated army to play than any other. Their units are just kinda meh and nothing can win combats.

Either Dark Eldar or Tyranids for me.

De are ultra precise, fractions of an inch can be game breaking at times. They're incredibly fragile, so the army is only protected by good solid play. Think of Dark Eldar as a Scalpel, deadly when used with skill and precision, but pretty harmless in the hands of someone who has no idea what they're doing.

Tyranids require more synergy among units and timing pushes (to steal the SC2 term and apply it here) than just about any other race in the game. The army usually attacks in waves, and you need to time the waves by the different movement speeds of your units. You have to build your list to hit properly and each element needs to support and receive support from the others. There are very few, if any, units in the book that are simply outstanding on their own. They don't get anything obscenely powerful that swings games. The army is designed and built for a purpose, and if it can't execute that purpose properly as a unit, it'll fail. This requires very good play, planning and adaptability from the person playing the army in order to achieve results.

In this day and age I would say it's Eldar.

What has happened to the meta in the last 4 codices and FAQs:

ML or ML equivalents everywhere. SW LFs, Terminator CMLs, Psyflemen, Hive Guard; any army that wants 12+ MLs just seems to have them.

Psy defense out the ying yang. BA have various builds that put at least 1 psyhood on the table, SW have the 4+ antimagic stick, Allies rules for WH are still alive and well for any IG commander wanting a LD10 infinite range hood, Ezekiel might actually be used now, and Null Zone (obviously on a Marine Libby) is still a mainstay of certain army builds. On top of all that, the brand new shinydex will tip your army over and grape it in da mouth if it doesn't have some sort of psy defense (not really but the efficacy of GKs can be boosted considerably with powers).

S8 Ap3/2 is the most efficient versus Eldar vehicles. Eldar rely on their psychic abilities for offense and defense. Eldar options for transports, basic troops, and LR anti tank are overcosted.

Almarine wrote:
Okay, I'd buy that, if it were true. Eldar have less than stellar toughness and save compared to MEQ, but the inverse can be said about their transports. The resilience of an avenger unit (or whatever) is lower than that of a tactical squad, but the resilience of their movement speed is way higher. This makes it actually easier to get eldar where they need to be when they need to be there.

In fact, deploying and maneuvering eldar/DE is probably much easier than rhino-based forces as they can probably move wherever they need in a single turn and can't really be outmaneuvered unless their transport is blown.

Your point would be more valid if Eldar players didn't have to pay through the nose for their transportation. A bare bones Wave Serpent costs 100 points. With a decent weapon 115-120, and spirit stones (EA equivalent) brings that up to 125-130.

This is 3 times as expensive as a Rhino, and considerably more expensive then a Razorback. It has no fire points, a single gun, no assault ramps, and a single rear access point. Serpents while good, are FAR from an "easy button"... and knowing where you need to put these Wave Serpents can be very difficult.

akaean wrote:
This is 3 times as expensive as a Rhino, and considerably more expensive then a Razorback. It has no fire points, a single gun, no assault ramps, and a single rear access point. Serpents while good, are FAR from an "easy button"... and knowing where you need to put these Wave Serpents can be very difficult.

...and for a lot of armies, it's also almost as difficult to penetrate as AV14 thanks to energy fields.

S8 vs AV12 = S10 vs av14.

if by a lot of armies, you mean Tau? Most armies have great access to missile launchers (devastators, long fangs, havocs, tac heavy weapons, psyflemen, etc.). These are not flying land raiders, and making it sound like they are is both silly and misleading...

EDIT: and DE, but they're entire army is lances, and I should point out that the Energy Rule Field doesn't even come into play vs lance weaponry so that point is moot...

Take 2 competitive lists, an Eldar one and a Space Wolf one. Give them to two noobs. I bet the Space Wolf would wipe the Eldar across the floor.

I think dark eldar are the hardest to play from a potential competitive codex. You have to be absolutely aggressive and kill everything you can as quickly as you can. They are to fragile to play the attrition game. They either win/table you by turn 3 and maybe turn 4 (or everything is just dead on both sides anyways) or they just run out of gas. Period.

Let's not put necrons out there as they have not been very competitive since 5th ed was released.

Eldar can be competitive, but they simply do that by not dying and not killing much of anything. I don't think they are hard, but they are just about as fun to play as watching paint dry on the grass growing in your front yard.

I think nids are the second hardest to play from a potentially competitve codex as they want to do things in the opposite way that dark eldar do. They want to slowly grind you into the ground through attrition and potentially tough to kill units or plentiful (and replenishable) cheap units.

IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:...and for a lot of armies, it's also almost as difficult to penetrate as AV14 thanks to energy fields.

S8 vs AV12 = S10 vs av14.

Except a lot of armies can throw out tons of str8 long range shooting and very few can throw out hardly any str10 shooting.

Almarine wrote:

ObiFett wrote:Tau are similar in regards to why they are hard to play.

Everything in my army has to work together. It takes 2-3 units to kill (hopefully) one unit of my enemy's army. This is in contrast to the fact that all it takes is one unit of my enemy to get into close combat to kill ANY one (or multiple) units in my army.

One mistake (target priority miscalculation, letting the enemy get into CC, etc) and the killing power of my army drops considerably.

Now, maybe my dice are cursed or something but with my marines, I frequently need more than two units to kill an enemy unit. They may all wear the same armour or they may even be duplicate units but you know. It happens to everyone, probably.

That said, I think tau might actually be a pretty difficult army to run successfully. However, I don't believe it's because they are a more complicated army to play than any other. Their units are just kinda meh and nothing can win combats.

Except that every game you play as Tau, all the enemy has to do is get two or three models into CC with ANY of your units and they will wipe your unit out. While you need two or three units to kill an enemy unit. That is why a single mistake can result in being tabled. But done right, and Tau can hold their own pretty well. That is why they are much less forgiving than most armies. Tau only play 2/3 of the phases, while your opponent plays all 3. And Tau aren't even the best at the 2/3 of the phases they do play.

akaean wrote:Your point would be more valid if Eldar players didn't have to pay through the nose for their transportation. A bare bones Wave Serpent costs 100 points. With a decent weapon 115-120, and spirit stones (EA equivalent) brings that up to 125-130.

This is 3 times as expensive as a Rhino, and considerably more expensive then a Razorback. It has no fire points, a single gun, no assault ramps, and a single rear access point. Serpents while good, are FAR from an "easy button"... and knowing where you need to put these Wave Serpents can be very difficult.

Sure, deployment is tricky for everyone. I still find it hard to believe it isn't much easier when your stuff is twice (or thrice) as fast moving. I guess with more speed you'll often have more viable avenues of approach and places to hide, options, so to speak. Perhaps you could call that more complicated.

As for the cost, depending on what's in the serpent the cost can actually be comparable to a full tac squad, but in the admittedly more probable case of say fire dragons, it's just another tradeoff. While 3 times as expensive as a rhino, it's a lot faster and more durable. Some are always going to feel it's not worth it, but they work pretty well as a point and shoot unit from what I've seen. You can't say they have it worse than necrons.

Regarding DE, their transports (and dudes) are a lot cheaper and don't even really fit the argument here. The stuff about them being scalpels I've always taken as sort of a joke that isn't funny and everyone is sick to death of.
It's not so hard to figure out whether or not to reserve, understand how fast to move in order to get SMF cover and how far you can assault out of an open-topped transport (also that pivot movement trick), learn for how long wyches can hold up any enemy units in melee (basically forever), learn to mathhammer poison shooting results, learn what all their strangely-named weapons do (this is probably the hardest part) and build a webway portal that DE can *really* be considered difficult to use successfully compared to codices like nids, or again, necrons.

Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Daemons.

All are competitive codices but all require a proper general/usage to be really competitive IMHO.

akaean wrote:
Your point would be more valid if Eldar players didn't have to pay through the nose for their transportation. A bare bones Wave Serpent costs 100 points. With a decent weapon 115-120, and spirit stones (EA equivalent) brings that up to 125-130.

This is 3 times as expensive as a Rhino, and considerably more expensive then a Razorback. It has no fire points, a single gun, no assault ramps, and a single rear access point. Serpents while good, are FAR from an "easy button"... and knowing where you need to put these Wave Serpents can be very difficult.

All that sounds very good compared to Devilfish: 80pts base w/ weak weapons and two kill points, 120 points fully kitted, limited weapons upgrades...

Just Dave wrote:Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Daemons.

All are competitive codices but all require a proper general/usage to be really competitive IMHO.

Frankly I don't see how DE rank in that group.

DE have all the tools needed to take on any list and diverse slots with good unit options in each without nearly the competition for slots as Tyranid Elite choices. The sheer speed of the army (move 12 and shoot, assault units with fleet) is forgiving.

Yes, DE can be shot to shreds if you play them like IG. I don't think that not playing DE like IG and utilizing reserves properly equates to the same degree of play necessary to make a Daemon list that gets its wrong wave competitive, or a Nid list that finds itself up against Crowe Purifier spam (if Hordey) or the SW 30 missile gunline (if MC heavy).

ThatEdGuy wrote:Im going to go with Demons since there is so much of their army that is random and out of your control. In addition you are playing at half strength for the first turn.

obviously demons WILL get pwned as there are going to be either GK or some Meq. i mean prefered enemy from gk is bad for the demon player if there are still any

sourclams wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Daemons.

All are competitive codices but all require a proper general/usage to be really competitive IMHO.

Frankly I don't see how DE rank in that group.

DE have all the tools needed to take on any list and diverse slots with good unit options in each without nearly the competition for slots as Tyranid Elite choices. The sheer speed of the army (move 12 and shoot, assault units with fleet) is forgiving.

Yes, DE can be shot to shreds if you play them like IG. I don't think that not playing DE like IG and utilizing reserves properly equates to the same degree of play necessary to make a Daemon list that gets its wrong wave competitive, or a Nid list that finds itself up against Crowe Purifier spam (if Hordey) or the SW 30 missile gunline (if MC heavy).

Dark Eldar are well reported as one of the trickier to use codices and IMHO this is justifiably so. Their biggest weakness is, of course, their vulnerability and even if you're not playing them like Imperial Guard they can still be ripped to shreds. Dark Eldar are an army that can seriously suffer from not having the 1st turn and are very vulnerable to shooty armies which appear to be predominant in 5th edition.

Furthermore, the Dark Eldar's main source of anti-tank, the Dark Lance, is still seen by many Dark Eldar players as actually being a sub-par anti-tank weapon. Whilst yes, they have the tools, range of units and speed, IMHO it requires a competent player to use these aspects efficiently and competitively. Much like their Eldar counterparts, the Dark Eldar rely on speed, coordination and combination and i believe it requires a competent player to use these aspects effectively.

I don't claim to be a DE expert, but I still believe they are on of the harder-to-use Codices in the game.

Khorne Flakes wrote:

ThatEdGuy wrote:Im going to go with Demons since there is so much of their army that is random and out of your control. In addition you are playing at half strength for the first turn.

obviously demons WILL get pwned as there are going to be either GK or some Meq. i mean prefered enemy from gk is bad for the demon player if there are still any

I've magnetized all my Daemons to square bases for the time being.

Backfire wrote:All that sounds very good compared to Devilfish: 80pts base w/ weak weapons and two kill points, 120 points fully kitted, limited weapons upgrades...

Might want to check this out (updated March 10th):

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1760102a_Tau_Empire_Version_1_1.pdf

Q: What happens to the gun drones on a vehicle if the
vehicle is destroyed? (p30)
A: The gun drones will be destroyed along with the
vehicle. Note that they do not give away an additional kill
point as they have not been detached from the vehicle.

somerandomdude wrote:

Backfire wrote:All that sounds very good compared to Devilfish: 80pts base w/ weak weapons and two kill points, 120 points fully kitted, limited weapons upgrades...

Might want to check this out (updated March 10th):

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1760102a_Tau_Empire_Version_1_1.pdf

Q: What happens to the gun drones on a vehicle if the
vehicle is destroyed? (p30)
A: The gun drones will be destroyed along with the
vehicle. Note that they do not give away an additional kill
point as they have not been detached from the vehicle.

This is new, and very welcome. Too bad I just switched all of my D-fish over to SMS :(

It's all dice and range estimates and thinking ahead.

Almarine, this is actually exactly why Space Marine armies are thought of as "easier" than others mentioned in this thread.

Dice:

Your statline is WS/BS4, S/T4, 3+, LD9+. If you make a miscalculation, your statline has a better chance of saving you. If you come up against a bad match-up, your statline has a better chance of saving you.

Range:

There's very little range estimation needed in today's game. Even if there was, Space Marine armies have a generous amount of mid-range firepower that they can take advantage of given the nature of today's games (4x6 tables, extra movement, etc.)

Thinking Ahead:

As I stated before, you can fail to forsee something as a Space Marine and still have a chance. With DE, Eldar, and Tau, which table edge/quarter you choose is a game-changing decision.

The difference between a 3+ save and a 6+ save is very palpable and is felt every turn of the game.

Whoever said that Eldar and Space Marines were equally easy to play...it's just not a train of thought that I can understand. That said, eldar have certain advantages over space marines, mainly mobility, but that doesn't change that fact that speesh mahreens will be getting their 3+ save most of the time against the majority of the weapons directed against them.

They're also hitting more often due to high bs, etc, etc.

In terms of difficulty, it's pretty clear that Necrons are by far the hardest army to win with, due to outdated codex.

The Tau are a an army who have virtually no presence in 1/3 of the game (assault phase), yet who's shooting is medicore. You are expected to buy expensive marker lights to enhance other units. Add to this that Tau have a T 3, 4+, I 2, and Ld 7 for a stat line with no psychic power nor any psychic defense and you're looking at one of the shakiest armies out there vulnerable to almost every stat affecting check.

Lets compare for a moment. for over 100 points you can get 8 Pathfinders and their Dfish with a deep strike reroll boost. for that you can shoot 8 marker lights at one target, averaging 4 hits. So now you can grant bonuses to up to four units, but in reality are probably only going to grant them to one (reducing a cover save to 0) or two (boosting two squads to BS 5) units. The Pathfinders themselves cause no damage because they must either fire the marker lights or a weapon that does damage.

Now lets look at a 100 point Librarian. For that you get a force weapon, a psychic hood, and Null Zone. The Libby casts null zone, and any unit of his army harming any enemy unit within a 24" radius of the libby, in the shooting and assault phase, recieves the force multiplier, and he can contribute his attacks to kill models as usual.

akaean wrote:if by a lot of armies, you mean Tau? Most armies have great access to missile launchers (devastators, long fangs, havocs, tac heavy weapons, psyflemen, etc.). These are not flying land raiders, and making it sound like they are is both silly and misleading...

EDIT: and DE, but they're entire army is lances, and I should point out that the Energy Rule Field doesn't even come into play vs lance weaponry so that point is moot...

Take 2 competitive lists, an Eldar one and a Space Wolf one. Give them to two noobs. I bet the Space Wolf would wipe the Eldar across the floor.

Tau, IG, Vindi-spam SM. You can't even use meltas or ordinance against the things. I'd consider them worth the points.

Or lascannon razorbacks or preds, for that matter.