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Hello all,

I've been playing IG for the last 6 months and have steadily gotten better with them since I returned to 40k. The problem is that my friend whom plays csm just seems to ratchet up the pressure with every win I manage to sweat through. I am now consistently facing dual DP's with one at-least holding a lash, obliterator's galore and 1-2 termicide squads.

I've been doing fine at taking down the DP when he was solo, but two seems to give me grief. I tend to try to bubble wrap the leman's, but with the obliterater spam my wrap thins and the terms just show up at any weak points and wipe out a tank with their combi-melta's...

His troop component is usually meager, but by the end of the game I usually can't really capitalize on this missing troops well enough to capture enough uncontested points to squeak a win.

Thank you for any constructive suggestions you can provide. (even the very basic such as terrain placement)

As a Chaos player I find it interesting to see this from the other side as Chaos is usually the one struggling against IG.

Without knowing your list, I'll give you generic advice.
1) Lash can't hurt mechanized units, so keep your guys in Chimeras or Vendettas. Barring that, remember its only a 24" power and can only be used on 1 squad per DP so don't combine squads.
2) Obliterators are great and all but point for point they'll lose in a straight up shooting match with IG. Lascannons in particular are a pain as they can pierce the 2+ armor and insta-kill the Oblit. Vendettas are great for this but LC HWS or LC in infantry squads work too.
3) Bubblewrapping to prevent Termicide is a good option, the other option is to deploy in such a way as to limit the available openings for them to deepstrike at. At a minimum you might be able to push them outside of the 6" range. The advisor who can manipulte enemy reserve rolls isn't a bad option if you have the free points.
4) DPs die to Autocannons, Multi-lasers, Battlecannons etc, all things that an IG army should have in quantity.

Thanks for the reply. Here is what 'generally' I take:

Note: I have been avoiding full mech due to a mix of disliking taking anything considered cheese and I would have to proxy tanks for a while before I can get new ones.

HQ
CCS Lascannon + PW 87

Elite
Psyker Battle Squad 110
Ratlings 100

Troops
Vet Guard + AC + 3 Meltaguns 110
Vet Guard + AC + 3 Meltaguns 110
Vet Guard + AC + 3 Meltaguns 110
Vet Guard + 3 MG (for vendetta) 95

Fast
Vendetta TL + Lascannon + HB sponsons 140
Devil Dog Hull HB 125

Heavy
Leman Russ Battle Tank + Hull LC + HB sponsons 165
Leman Russ Battle Tank + Hull HB + HB sponsons 150
Demolisher Leman Russ + Hull LC + Melta sponsons 200

Total 1502


Hope this helps. Any criticism would be appreciated. The probably perplexing Meltaguns on the vets is due to his love of termicide/landraider use in the last several games.

Run a master of the fleet so his deepstrike won't drop together. Chimeras with multilaser will dominate daemon princes... foot slogging vets is generally is never a good option. Also, mixing a heavy weapon with an assaulty weapon in a squad usually isnt a good option- if you want autocannons just run regular guardsmen- a lot cheaper. Lash+oblits dominates foot sloggers- the only option for foot slogging armies is to drop the lash turn 1 or 2.

If you're set on foot slogging then take combined squad of 30 guardsmen with 3 meltas and 3 power weapons- maybe throw some comissars in there. But against lash lists your best bet is to stay in tanks or reserve your infantry until you drop the princes.

Thanks Bertimismaximus,

I can see the advantage of the master (used him a couple of times), along with modfiying the vet squads to focus on long range alone. I am leery about moving from vet's since I've noticed huge improvements on taking down the DP with the vet's BS4 with the ACs.

I have tried the blob to my benefit several times, but a very sneaky chosen squad showed up in one game with multiple flamers.....There was a lot of cooking flesh.

Maybe I do have to up the cheese to combat cheese and take a mech list.

First off, the elderly CSM book is pretty light on the cheese. Lash plus Oblits is about midfield for competitiveness nowadays. If you ever want to play in tourneys I'd suggest you get used to at least that level of "cheese". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but as a CSM player who routinely faces mech IG, Blood Angels and Space Wolves I'd say you really need to consider what else is out there before decrying Oblits as cheesy. And btw, mech guard isn't that cheesy either, it's just quite powerful. With the number of players building lists specifically to defeat it it's pretty middle-pack nowadays.

Okay, here's a few tips post-rant

-Kill the Oblits first. You need that Demolisher alive.
-Let the DP close and eat a less-vital unit, then melta it to death.
-Consider switching one unit of vets to plasma. It scares everything CSM.
-Drop the PBS on foot (too easy to lash) for more redundant Vets. One more unit of vets means the Lash doesn't matter as much.

Thanks for the suggestions Savnock,

I was thinking about the target priority that I have been using and was starting to come to the same idea that a couple shots at the oblits may do more for my safety then taking the old DPs. As for the plasma and PBS, i have made up another army list incorporating those suggestions...thanks a lot.

As for my cheesy comments: I can not talk much about tournaments, but when two lash princes are pulling my men out of cover into tight balls for multiple plasma templates via the oblits it definitely feels like an rough one-two punch. All I can say is thank God I don't play with any space wolves player!

You do have some fairly hard-hitting infantry but they're all the sorts of units that tend to benefit from transport. Having fewer numbers of better infantry will mean that casualties hurt more, plus you've got fewer bodies to fill up potential DS LZ's.

CCS with medic and PGs loves CSM targets.

Don't worry about mech heavy armies being considered cheese, the only people who call them cheese are people who don't know how to deal with them. Your opponent seems to be adapting well to your 'big tanks and well-trained infantry' list, there's no shame in switching your stone for a scissor to cut his paper.

lindsay40k wrote:You do have some fairly hard-hitting infantry but they're all the sorts of units that tend to benefit from transport. Having fewer numbers of better infantry will mean that casualties hurt more, plus you've got fewer bodies to fill up potential DS LZ's.

CCS with medic and PGs loves CSM targets.

Don't worry about mech heavy armies being considered cheese, the only people who call them cheese are people who don't know how to deal with them. Your opponent seems to be adapting well to your 'big tanks and well-trained infantry' list, there's no shame in switching your stone for a scissor to cut his paper.

Ditto all that! Especially the bit about the vets needing transports. And if you don't want to mech up, try fielding regular platoons with only a couple vet squads instead. That'll let you get some extra nifties in there too, and make for even more effective blobs.

Paeern wrote: As for my cheesy comments: I can not talk much about tournaments, but when two lash princes are pulling my men out of cover into tight balls for multiple plasma templates via the oblits it definitely feels like an rough one-two punch. All I can say is thank God I don't play with any space wolves player!

But against an all mounted army (which is most of them these days) it's not nearly as good. You need to use your oblits to knock people out of their transports which means no plasma cannon fire. And then DPs don't hold up in CC by themselves against most things you'll run into so you need use your lash to set up multi charges which is a lot harder.

Someone said it's about middle of the road for competativeness, I think that's a good assessment.

Most competitive Chaos armies have replaced the Lash Princes with 2x Nurgle DPs for the added durability and killing power without being so reliant on a psychic power that is easier and easier to dismiss through transports and anti-psyker abilities.

Thanks guys, I'll take your comments to heart and let you know how the next IG/CSM bout goes.

Paeern wrote:Thanks for the reply. Here is what 'generally' I take:

Note: I have been avoiding full mech due to a mix of disliking taking anything considered cheese and I would have to proxy tanks for a while before I can get new ones.
*snip

Mechvets without the mech. That's your problem right there.