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I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.

It's been pointed out to me -- and correctly so -- that I opened this post with flamebait. Let me apologize for that. What I really mean is that a lot people started complaining for what seemed like the sake of complaining because they didn't manage to offer non-tautological reasons for their complaints ("I don't like it because it's bad."). And this wasn't the first time they had done so with regard to this particular author.

In my opinion, hating something without a coherent reason or, at least, stating publicly that you hate something without providing a coherent reason, are signs of immaturity. But I do acknowledge the sacred and inviolable right of others to disagree with that assessment and any other I might make.

But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

To wit:

One of the main themes of the fluff in this latest book is that the GK fight daemons with sorcery. As one or another of them is quoted as saying, the GK don't have to suffer the criticism of anybody who thinks this is a contradiction. Now, is this a revision of previous fluff? Not at all! The closest we come is that GK refused to work with radical Inquisitors who included daemonhosts in their retinues. Fine. All this establishes is that GK don't trust anyone who is not a GK to do this kind of thing. And that's another one of their major themes. That one is heavily implied in the Daemonhunters book and now explicitly laid out in the new book: GK do things that other Imperial citizens are absolutely forbidden to do. Does any of this contradict previous fluff? Nope. That principle is at the very heart of the Inquisition fluff.

One of the purposes of this "fighting fire with fire" theme is to elicit horror. Accessing the power of the Warp is supposed to be really, really terrible. Nothing new here, either. And this reinforces the "GK are able to do what is forbidden to others" theme, given that wielding the Warp is actually a great burden and responsibility for them. It's so dangerous, in fact, that most Imperial citizens, even if they are utterly loyal, need to be executed or at least mindwiped if they become aware that the GK do this or even if they become aware of the very existence of the GK. More horror and nothing new. Indeed, the new book retells the infamous story of the purging of the victorious IG units after Angron was defeated at First Armageddon.

Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.

Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.

Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good

40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.

The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...

In my humble opinion.

PS: I'm 17, not 16

I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Mortarion the guy who sits in the Chaos Realm being all emo and that, and doesn't enter the Materium?

Scarey Nerd wrote:Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good

40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.

The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...

In my humble opinion.

Let's see if I get this right.

Daemons will kill 1,000,000 humans.
Grey Knights kill 100,000 humans to defeat the Daemons.

900,000 humans survive!

How is this not saving humanity?


I think people were expecting Grey Knights to be fluffy white knights in shining armor...

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have no problems with anything except draigo carving some turd's name on MORTARION'S chest. Burned the garden of nurgle? Eh, that's believable. All he needed to do was start a fire.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Mortarion the guy who sits in the Chaos Realm being all emo and that, and doesn't enter the Materium?

He's the Primarch of the death Guard, who was elevated to a daemon prince. He doesn't leave the warp because he doesn't have to, and he can't risk being killed. It's not unique that a daemon primarch doesn't want to leave the warp. Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.

How could the death guard even let one terminator get that close to their beloved primarch? Not a single plague marine had a plasma gun, or a lascannon to take him down with? Did mortarion invite him to dinner or something?

Amaya wrote:Let's see if I get this right.

Daemons will kill 1,000,000 humans.
Grey Knights kill 100,000 humans to defeat the Daemons.

900,000 humans survive!

How is this not saving humanity?


I think people were expecting Grey Knights to be fluffy white knights in shining armor...

My point is that the numbers will climb and climb. IIRC, at one point the GK destroy all the daemons that were attacking a system, then kill everyone in the system, then kill a load of AM listening posts in case they realised, then killed a dozen IG troopships in the area. Statistically, they killed more people than the Daemons could have.

@Manchu: Bless you for trying, but once something becomes 'common knowledge' it is difficult to get anything other than 'lol WARD fluff iz bad' out of people.

I liked the GK codex and everything in it. I think that some of the Year / Incident page could have been fleshed out more, but that's the whole point of that page. It is little teasers and doesn't have the whole thing.

I also would like more detail on the Mort battle, but still... These guys are unholy badasses and have always been. Why be surprised when they do something badass?


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Scarey Nerd wrote:
My point is that the numbers will climb and climb. IIRC, at one point the GK destroy all the daemons that were attacking a system, then kill everyone in the system, then kill a load of AM listening posts in case they realised, then killed a dozen IG troopships in the area. Statistically, they killed more people than the Daemons could have.

Daemonic infestations don't stop at a planet or a system. They continue to spread until huge rents in the warp are formed. So did they kill more than they saved? We'll never know because we would never let it get that far.

I think this is because of most people exposure to Grey Knight is that they are the shinning beacon in the fight against Daemons, the Knight that saves the Imperium against the doom that is Daemons

apparently they are just grimdark as everyone else

I don't think Ward should get as much hate as he does. Hes only doing his job and is human and therefore is prone to making mistakes like any of us.

@Manchu: Excellent! You did a fine job of putting it into perspective.

However, the Draigo bit is still far too over the top.

But, I do not think Matt Ward is a bad writer, he just gets overzealous about whatever army he's writing about and has them doing amazingly epic things. This is the number one reason I want him to write the next Chaos codex, to revive them.

Manchu wrote:



Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.

Back to background? Missed you.

I disagree that it makes sense.

1) GK use sorcery to fend of sorcery sounds ok, until, this sorcery is meant to call upon someone and to call upon chaos is a fast path to be tainted. So GK are either untaintable and have not to fear the danger of using sorcery, but why should the bloodtide endanger them in this case? Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.

2) Some Sisters were tainted, and GK took the blood of Sisters, so is it possible the survivors are all free of taint? Maybe not?

3) If its just the blood, was it neccessary to take all of it? If it was about slaying the innocent, this would give the impression it was done to appease a chaos entity. GK seem to safeguard chaos artifacts, but not to use them ( actively ) .

4)The wholesale erase all evidence however, is failing sooner or later. It evolves like a snowball-system, they may have to kill the whole IoM to cover the events.

Surely this piece of fluff gets sometimes blown out of proportion on the interwebz.
But its also unneccessary. The erase all evidence point is made in other pieces just fine, the use of psyker abilities too.
The protection of the GK against taint, may be the only point to be made there and IMO this idea of "pimp yo aegis" with sacrificed blood and sacred oils screams like face painting and magic eyes to fend off the evil. Too much superstition for those in the know for me to believe in. Remember the GK safeguard artifacts. Do they smear blood all over those gates too?

1hadhq wrote: Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.

Not really. They're constantly training, praying and protected and steel themselves precisely so they won't fall. And when it looked like they might fall or fail in this situation they did whatever they had to do to defeat their opponents.

4)The wholesale erase all evidence however, is failing sooner or later.

Much like the Imperium itself then ? It might not be a great or long term method... but it's the only one they've got.

Surely this piece of fluff gets sometimes blown out of proportion on the interwebz.

Understatement of the week

But its also unneccessary. The erase all evidence point is made in other pieces just fine, the use of psyker abilities too.
The protection of the GK against taint, may be the only point to be made there and IMO this idea of "pimp yo aegis" with sacrificed blood and sacred oils screams like face painting and magic eyes to fend off the evil. Too much superstition for those in the know for me to believe in. Remember the GK safeguard artifacts. Do they smear blood all over those gates too?

Surely the point is that in the 40K setting that isn'tsuperstition. That might well or does indeed work. Or at the very least part of the actions when they do this works or helps. The entire Imperium is riven with superstition, I don't quite see how or why the Grey Knights, who know more about the daemonic than pretty much any other faction in the setting, wouldn't therefre be superstitious.

1hadhq wrote:

Back to background? Missed you.

I disagree that it makes sense.

1) GK use sorcery to fend of sorcery sounds ok, until, this sorcery is meant to call upon someone and to call upon chaos is a fast path to be tainted. So GK are either untaintable and have not to fear the danger of using sorcery, but why should the bloodtide endanger them in this case? Or GK are not safe from taint, just have a high resilience against it and needed to pimp their levels of protection.
M:W's way to write it, implys the latter but contradicts itself as GK are shown as safe from corruption. So it reads like he had it both ways.

Pretty much this, I don't hate the fluff because the Grey Knights remove witnesses, I remember that being one of the reasons why Logan Grimnar began too personally disapprove of the Inquisition and their methods. I don't disapprove of the Grey Knights using Sorcery against Sorcery, though it seems rather Radical compared to how I personally recall them, though I could be wrong. The thing I do have an issue with about this particular piece of fluff is that the Grey Knights are already supposed to be untaintable by anything Chaos could through at them, so why do they need to use some Blood Magic ritual to make themselves more pure than pure in order to prevent themselves from being tainted. Something they are already supposed to be incapable of.

Rather than using nun blood to stop the bloodtide, why couldn't they just use umbrellas?

Hey 1hadhq -- missed you, too!

Let me try to address some of those points:

(1) This one also goes out to Sacrey Nerd, who brought it up first. GK are not all utterly incorruptible. As I understand it, they are highly resistant as a group. Among the whole, the Purifiers stand out as even more resistant -- in fact, nigh incorruptible. And then there's Crowe who is totally incorruptible -- or is he? (See, Ward even leaves the "invincibility" of his "invincible" characters in question. That's for all the kids who scream "Mary Sue" at Ward's stuff.) I don't think the Grey Knights at Van Horne were Purifiers (there are only like 40 of them anyhow) and I'm sure Crowe wasn't among them. So, yes, corruption was a possibility. In fact, the story establishes that it is an especially virulent form of corruption: the priests of the IoM are the first to fall victim to the Bloodtide. Now, this is in part because of their proximity to the disturbed stasis field. But it also signifies that this particular corruption is very, very powerful. And here we have another reinforced theme: the GK are super-powerful elite anti-daemon experts - BUT - there aren't tons of them, so they only respond to the worst of the worst problems. That includes, by the way, some problems that are possibly too great for even them to overcome. In these cases, they need to employ the dangerous, forbidden knowledge that only they are entrusted to employ. That's what they did in this case and in several others throughout the book.

This is just the most gruesome example. I tend to agree with Amaya and Retrias: this seems like an awfully bad thing for the good guys to do and that unsettles people. In any case, there is no contradiction present because GK are not all totally incorruptible. Don't confuse "none have ever fallen" with "none can ever fall."

(2) You're challenging a fact of the story. Some of the Sisters became corrupted, some did not. To say that some of those who did not actually did is not arguing about this story. Instead, you are talking about another story; one that you are making up. It's like saying "the Grey Knights arrived at the planet but maybe they weren't actually Grey Knights." The SoB that the GK killed were not tainted.

(3) That's a very good point that cuts right to the real contradiction of the GK -- i.e., the one that has been an intentional contradiction of the 40k fluff for a long time: what real difference is there between being a psyker and being a sorcerer. And, of course, we've had that debate before and it all comes down to personal interpretation. In this case, it totally fits the fluff, however: the GK are called upon to do especially terrible things (not just awesome things) in their fight against the Ruinous Powers.

Still, let's not be totally equivocal. There's a very important distinction:

- the daemons of Khorne conquer humanity with the psychic power of tainted blood

- the Grey Knights defeat the daemons of Khorne wit hthe pyschic power of pure and holy blood

(4) The idea that the entire IoM might have to be sacrificed can be answered in two ways: (a) the IoM represents a totally unimaginable amount of human beings so an organization as small as the GK involved with only a small set of the most major daemonic incursions will never really make a dent - AND - (b) yes, the whole IoM might need to be sacrificed and that could be what's best for humanity. As to this second answer, let's not forget about the mysterious Terminus Decree. We don't really know what it is, but it sounds like it could be something like answer (b) there.

Finally, your conclusion: Your concern seems to really be "are these GK just Chaos sorcerers or what?" That's the really horrifying part of their fluff. We usually think of there being some neat line between the good guys who are psykers and the bad guys who are chaos-worshiping witches and sorcerers. The GK make us realize that this distinction "exists only in the minds of men"--I think that's an exact quote from the dex, actually. (Don't have it in front of me). And what does that say about the Emperor? And the Imperium? It puts the Horus Heresy into perspective, doesn't it?

The heroic essence of the GK is that they are somehow able to stay on the right side of this shifting boundary between faith and madness, between purity and corruption, against all odds. Now: what is so right about their side? It's still pretty horrifying, after all.

BrotherStynier wrote:
Pretty much this, I don't hate the fluff because the Grey Knights remove witnesses, I remember that being one of the reasons why Logan Grimnar began too personally disapprove of the Inquisition and their methods. I don't disapprove of the Grey Knights using Sorcery against Sorcery, though it seems rather Radical compared to how I personally recall them, though I could be wrong. The thing I do have an issue with about this particular piece of fluff is that the Grey Knights are already supposed to be untaintable by anything Chaos could through at them, so why do they need to use some Blood Magic ritual to make themselves more pure than pure in order to prevent themselves from being tainted. Something they are already supposed to be incapable of.

There have always been degrees of purity/chaos resistance, just as there are degrees of morale. What protects you from standard daemonic influence and warp resistance is not going to protect you from prolonged exposure to the warp or to the direct influence of a greater daemon.

On those same lines, while the Aegis and mental fortitude are common amongst all GK, some are more pure than others and have greater mental fortitude (hence purifiers). But even for Purifiers (the purest of the pure) some are more pure than those (Crowe, for example). When faced with such a catastrophic exposure to daemonic influence that even the weaker sisters were corrupted (sisters being notoriously uncorruptible, with only 1 documented previous instance outside of Daemonifuge), the GKs weren't taking any chances.

With limited time left (hours before the Bloodtide consumed that world), they weren't going screwing around and I don't blame them.


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Crap, ninja'd by Manchu.

Getting ninja'd is good here, pretre. It bears repeating, since this is apparently a big cause of the confusion/frustration:

GK are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos.

Manchu wrote:Finally, your conclusion: Your concern seems to really be "are these GK just Chaos sorcerers or what?" That's the really horrifying part of their fluff. We usually think of there being some neat line between the good guys who are psykers and the bad guys who are chaos-worshiping witches and sorcerers. The GK make us realize that this distinction "exists only in the minds of men"--I think that's an exact quote from the dex, actually. (Don't have it in front of me). And what does that say about the Emperor? And the Imperium? It puts the Horus Heresy into perspective, doesn't it?

Especially considering what happened to the 1k-sons. I always though Magnus' legion could have been the GKs if they had played their cards right.

Not having read the entirety of the new Codex Im not sure where you guys are getting that the Grey Knights are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos?

Is this said in the current fluff, because if it is I'll drop my argument as I don't have another fairly recent source of fluff regarding them. I atleast seem to recall the old book saying they are immune to the effects, no exceptions, though Like I have said I could be wrong.

That stance on fluff being said, I will still stand by older Night Lords and ADB Night Lords fluff in case things get drastically changed. On the Grey Knight matter they were never fully fleshed out, and as much as I may disagree with certain things that have been done to my first army. I suppose that even disappointing fluff can be better than little to no fluff.

90% of the fluff in the book is good. Draigo and the blood tide are bad. I even think the Necron working with BA is good, and if you have been following 40k for a while fluffy even, as necrons need things to "red harvest" and tyranids leave nothing.

My big gripe is the return to exterminus everything of 3rd edition. Back when the fluff was SM win the battle or bomb the planet, either way they always win. 4th edition codeci had to go out of thier way to explain how each race could avoid the auto win bombing. Chaos using big guns and daemon shields, and Nids burrowing underground. A lot of GK fluff is either we win, or we bomb you and win anyways. They are the only codex with not a single loss in the fluff, just a few draws.

The GK have a two-page spread in the Daemonhunters dex that I read last night in preparation for posting this. There is no mention of them being totally immune to Chaos.

I think what you're remembering is that not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. But, as I said to 1hadhq, don't confuse "none have fallen" with "none can fall."

*Let me just add that I didn't review Index Astartes II before writing this.

Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward. But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

I guess I'm 16 at heart then. Here's an individual 'whine' for you to consider. (seriously, you're opening is pure flamebait mate...)

I found it puerile, immature and considered it poorly written, given that I'm currently rereading The Lost and The Damned and took the time to read the new GK codex during that, the difference is glaring and disappointing.

I have never given two gaks about being cool (because frankly I never will be...) but that changes nothing about the 'fluff' in this book or the BA codex, it's just poorly conceived, constructed and presented. It's a series of brazen and childish one-ups that tear at the well established background's previous dark themes with all the sophistry and wit of Ted Nugent parachuting into the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures with a quim shaped electric guitar.

Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.

@s_h:

That's a reasonable criticism. Note, however, that the GK also get bombed -- specifically, Huron Blackheart bombs the gak out of some GK, leaving only one GK alive. As to the win-or-bomb-and-win scenario, that's hard to avoid with GK: the stakes are so high that those are really their only options and they know that going into most fights. So you have some GK standing by to bomb in case winning on the ground becomes impossible.

I don't get, however, why you still think the Bloodtide story is bad.

Manchu wrote:@s_h:

That's a reasonable criticism. Note, however, that the GK also get bombed -- specifically, Huron Blackheart bombs the gak out of some GK, leaving only one GK alive. As to the win-or-bomb-and-win scenario, that's hard to avoid with GK: the stakes are so high that those are really their only options and they know that going into most fights. So you have some GK standing by to bomb in case winning on the ground becomes impossible.

I don't get, however, why you still think the Bloodtide story is bad.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.

Then it was dross when it was written in 2003, too. If you've always thought GK were gak, then I'm not sure what is surprising or disappointing about still thinking they're gak. I don't know that 40k has ever been much more than OTT one ups. That's the very concept of a Space Marine.

Also, MGS: I think you're cool!


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Scarey Nerd wrote:Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.

Yep. They're trapped deep inside of a building and the bombardment causes a partial collapse of that building. The guys with the better armor save make their saves.

@Manchu: IA 2 says things like 'The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonic creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers.'
Emphasis mine.

Also, IA 2 says that the Librarium Daemonica that every GK carries 'contains the essential tenets of lore culled from the Librarium Daemonica' which is listed as 'blasphemous knowledge' and 'damned collection of knowledge'.
So they have always liked their coffee a little black.


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Manchu wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:Again, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a part in the book that describes some GK surviving an orbital bombardment that wipes out tonnes of Daemons and Tyranids because their armour is good.

Yep. They're trapped deep inside of a building and the bombardment causes a partial collapse of that building. The guys with the better armor save make their saves.

Yeah, valid tactic that I would use in a battle. Hmm. I have AP3 bombardment weaponry and a ton of terminators. Do I care if it scatters onto my guys? Not really...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward. But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

I guess I'm 16 at heart then. Here's an individual 'whine' for you to consider. (seriously, you're opening is pure flamebait mate...)

I found it puerile, immature and considered it poorly written, given that I'm currently rereading The Lost and The Damned and took the time to read the new GK codex during that, the difference is glaring and disappointing.

I have never given two gaks about being cool (because frankly I never will be...) but that changes nothing about the 'fluff' in this book or the BA codex, it's just poorly conceived, constructed and presented. It's a series of brazen and childish one-ups that tear at the well established background's previous dark themes with all the sophistry and wit of Ted Nugent parachuting into the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures with a quim shaped electric guitar.

Whether or not you care to shoehorn this dross into the existing history does not change the opinion of many, that it remains dross.

It is mostly bad one upping, yes. But it's something, a bad something. But something is better than the very little we had, or Im just becoming very indeferent to the Codex fluff, hoping instead for better fluff in the BL's books that I can look to instead and only use the codexes for rules.

No one is saying Matt Ward is Shakespeare. And no one is saying that 40k is literature. But I actually like it. It's no surprise to me that people who think the quality of 40k fluff is poor overall don't like particular parts of it, either. What surprises me is that they come to a site about 40k and complain about it.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.

Look up the Dominion of Fire and The First War for Armageddon. He kinda was out of the warp a ton. Then he got banished, but hey.