Mat Ward's GK fluff is actually fine.

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**xcasex**

I distinctly recall some early fluff about the GK's think it was pre-2ed.
They definetly never were good, good guys. they're indiscriminate in how they work to purge the taint.

(the story itself, centered around an imperial planetary commander, who dealt with tzeentch and was lured, so his little helper had by some odd way of communicating gotten the word to the GKs who teleported in and the story ended with them, well. Killing everything.)

**Platuan4th**

pretre wrote:
Gavo wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron, magnus, lorgar and fulgrim barely ever leave the warp.

Look up the Dominion of Fire and The First War for Armageddon. He kinda was out of the warp a ton. Then he got banished, but hey.

For how long versus the 10,000 years (realtime) he's been around and the countless ages he's lived in the warp?

Magnus spent some time messing with the Space Wolves too, but it was relatively short compared to overall time that he could have been messing with them.

Angron's fluff pretty much states that whenever he's capable of leaving(ie. He's recovered from his banishment, which could take 100 years Real Time or 1000, there's no set amount of time), he does. He's not the type to sit around lamenting, especially since becoming a Daemon.

Out of all the Primarchs, Angron gets a LOT of Real Space time.

**Manchu**

Do the DP/rimarchs lament their ascension? I just thought the Warp was a lot, a lot more fun than boring ole realspace.

**Platuan4th**

Manchu wrote:Do the DP/rimarchs lament their ascension? I just thought the Warp was a lot, a lot more fun than boring ole realspace.

Magnus does. But by lamenting, I meant more that the Primarchs lament over a variety of things(turning, losing, etc.).

Except Angron, who just rages when he can't leave to slaughter more Imperials.

**KamikazeCanuck**

They seem like a pretty bitter lot.

**Mordoskul**

I've got no problem with the Grey Knights Codex, my issue is with the whole Blood Angels-Necron team up. Please explain that.

**Manchu**

Mordoskul wrote: Please explain that.

In all seriousness, that's next.

**-Loki-**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They seem like a pretty bitter lot.

Most of them were tricked into turning on the Emperor by Horus/Erebus or were turned on by the Emperor (like Magnus). They've got plenty to be bitter about.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Mordoskul wrote:I've got no problem with the Grey Knights Codex, my issue is with the whole Blood Angels-Necron team up. Please explain that.

OK:

Ah the infamous Blood Angels-Necron bro-fist incident. I believe that version of events was a little bit of revisionist history on the part of The Blood Angels and/or another Imperial scholar. A situation were Necrons and BA would stop shooting at each other for a second and shoot at Tyranids isn't that improbable actually. The stupid part is the last line were the BAs find turning on the Nercons to be in poor taste. Why? Because Space Marines pride themselves on their hatred. The more hate they have the better. If you've got hate in your heart let it out! Hatred is their weapon and faith their sheild etc etc.
Well looks like this time they ran out of hate or more likely were merely fatigued and could not fight anymore due to casualties and logistical shortages. Mostly, The Blood Angels could not persecute this war any longer (especially not without getting their buts kicked). So like most a lot of nations have done before, they declared victory and went home. Afterwards, they're all like "Keep fighting the Necrons? No....uh...that would have been poor from haha" but really it was a strategic withdrawl in the face of a superior force.

**augustus5**

Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.

It's been pointed out to me -- and correctly so -- that I opened this post with flamebait. Let me apologize for that. What I really mean is that a lot people started complaining for what seemed like the sake of complaining because they didn't manage to offer non-tautological reasons for their complaints ("I don't like it because it's bad."). And this wasn't the first time they had done so with regard to this particular author.

In my opinion, hating something without a coherent reason or, at least, stating publicly that you hate something without providing a coherent reason, are signs of immaturity. But I do acknowledge the sacred and inviolable right of others to disagree with that assessment and any other I might make.

But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

To wit:

One of the main themes of the fluff in this latest book is that the GK fight daemons with sorcery. As one or another of them is quoted as saying, the GK don't have to suffer the criticism of anybody who thinks this is a contradiction. Now, is this a revision of previous fluff? Not at all! The closest we come is that GK refused to work with radical Inquisitors who included daemonhosts in their retinues. Fine. All this establishes is that GK don't trust anyone who is not a GK to do this kind of thing. And that's another one of their major themes. That one is heavily implied in the Daemonhunters book and now explicitly laid out in the new book: GK do things that other Imperial citizens are absolutely forbidden to do. Does any of this contradict previous fluff? Nope. That principle is at the very heart of the Inquisition fluff.

One of the purposes of this "fighting fire with fire" theme is to elicit horror. Accessing the power of the Warp is supposed to be really, really terrible. Nothing new here, either. And this reinforces the "GK are able to do what is forbidden to others" theme, given that wielding the Warp is actually a great burden and responsibility for them. It's so dangerous, in fact, that most Imperial citizens, even if they are utterly loyal, need to be executed or at least mindwiped if they become aware that the GK do this or even if they become aware of the very existence of the GK. More horror and nothing new. Indeed, the new book retells the infamous story of the purging of the victorious IG units after Angron was defeated at First Armageddon.

Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.

Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.

I just take great offense to your first paragraph. You open up a discussion by calling those you disagree with whiney sixteen year olds. You then later respond by adding somewhat of an apology in red font, but you didn't take the time to get rid of the flamebait. This is even worse because it is coming from a MOD. Maybe dakka should choose it's MODs with a little more care in the future. If you can't moderate your own choice of words, what right have you to moderate anyone else's?

**Manchu**

Was it really necessary to quote the whole post without talking about any of its substance? The reason I didn't delete the offending portion is because I didn't want to "cover it up." Then people might respond to this thread complaining about me trying to hide a mistake instead of, you know, talking about the actual topic. But I suppose I wasn't being sensitive to those who would want the flamebait deleted in addition the apology and clarification. Personally, and seriuosly, I'm offended by your post so I think we'll call it even. I would be happy to hear you on-topic comments, however.

**Medium of Death**

Right, so Ward has written;

1.Daemons (40K and Fantasy)
2.Vanilla SM
3.Blood Angels
4.Grey Knights

Perhaps if you're going to do Blood Angels next, you could start an 'Understanding the commonly misconstrued fluff of Matt Ward' thread or Article.

A labour of love.

**Artemo**

I think that while the quality of the writing is fairly mediocre (but in fairness, that is true of all the GW background stuff I've read in the various codices - and in fact most games-related writing is average in terms of quality at best because it's generally written in some haste and by people who have other things to to in their jobs than merely write fiction), it's consistent in style with the bulk of GW background fiction (or 'fluff' as I understand we are to call it nowadays).

So it's perfectly acceptable to dislike the style that Ward uses, but really that needs applied to all GW writers -- he doesn't deserve singling out on that score.

As regards the actual content, I think the nub is that some people want to play the good guys, and that GW have implied in the past that the GK were, whereas in fact it turns out that they're about as morally ambiguous as every other army on the side of the Imperium (the other races being as bad or worse). But I think it unlikely Ward made that decision all on his lonesome -- and even if he did, it still would need the GW stamp of approval. So, again in fairness, if you don't like morally ambiguous GK, your ire should be directed at GW in general, or at least its senior decision makers, rather than Ward alone. He may be one of the decision makers but I suspect he's actually only following orders.

Personally I prefer the GK as a rather sinister force for 'good' (I think the clue is that they weren't called White Knights), but I do sympathise with those who wanted at least one army that behave 'decently' (though I do think 40K is the wrong universe for that).

**Scarey Nerd**

Medium of Death wrote:Right, so Ward has written;

1.Daemons (40K and Fantasy)
2.Vanilla SM
3.Blood Angels
4.Grey Knights

Perhaps if you're going to do Blood Angels next, you could start an 'Understanding the commonly misconstrued fluff of Matt Ward' thread or Article.

A labour of love.

Did he write Daemons in 40K? I thought they were written by someone with a name I can never pronounce, I want to say Torquemonda but I'm pretty sure that's wrong... I've heard tales that he did something bad to Daemons in Fantasy, but having never played it I can't comment.
Vanilla SM were fine, though I'm still annoyed at them being immune to the thing that cripples my beloved 'Crons the most. BA... a lot of people talk about bloodfists etc, and I've joked about it, but in all honesty I didn't have too many problems, apart from the fist-bumping 'Crons.
And then, of course, GK. After doing English Literature for 3 years and ruining books by looking deeper into the meanings, I'm of the opinion that generally an author isn't actually thinking about their meanings, they're just trying to tell a story, which is exactly what I think Ward is doing. His writing comes across as just a little bit immature, almost like he thinks that the 40K fluff universe is his own personal playground and that everything must be more and more awsums because it makes the others seem more desperate, or something like that. I mean, he writes Blood Angels, makes them epicz, then writes a bit into GK where the BA ask for help and allow themselves to be mindwiped. I don't really see how any Marine could unwind their pride enough to actually allow a mindwipe to occur.

**daedalus-templarius**

Thanks Manchu,
you made me think about some of the fluff a bit differently than I was before.

The GK are most certainly "fighting fire with fire".

**Kingsley**

Mordoskul wrote:I've got no problem with the Grey Knights Codex, my issue is with the whole Blood Angels-Necron team up. Please explain that.

Read the fluff section of the 5th edition large rulebook, specifically the part on Necrons. They aren't just mindless killing machines anymore.

**Mr. Burning**

I don't hate Matt Ward, I don't hate the fiction that is the 40k universe,

I do have to double take when, in a world of already inconsistent and poor writing, essential themes are poorly handled. Even in what is essentially a by-line piece.

The GK codex isn't bad, the fluff in it isn't terribad, and I do understand GW's need to jazz up their latest codex release for their current market.

But for me Bloodtide was a let down. So was Draigos tale of adventure (TM). But over the course of the codex there wasn't much else to hate.

I still don't understand BA and Crons VS the nids aftermath, a warriors code tale would be more suited to The Wolves (and has been explained quite well regarding Armageddon and the short story in tales of heresy?). But this was only a side bar piece so I can forgive it.

To my mind then:

Matt Ward and his staff, letting themselves down, occasionally.

**Alkasyn**

augustus5 wrote:
I just take great offense to your first paragraph. You open up a discussion by calling those you disagree with whiney sixteen year olds. You then later respond by adding somewhat of an apology in red font, but you didn't take the time to get rid of the flamebait. This is even worse because it is coming from a MOD. Maybe dakka should choose it's MODs with a little more care in the future. If you can't moderate your own choice of words, what right have you to moderate anyone else's?

Gotta agree with this, even if the mod himself thinks its offensive (lolwat?).

**Visitor13**

There really was no need to highlight the radical side of the GKs. They were already 'grey' enough, what with their propensity to kill the witnesses and their inevitable study of warp artifacts.They could very well be 'puritan' and still be ruthless and grimdark enough for everyone.
The 'radical' SM chapter slot was already occupied by the Relictors, and the increased 'radicalisation' of the GKs only makes that interesting and promising chapter redundant.
Basically, without Ward's fluff, we could have a 'puritan' chapter (the GKs) and a 'radical' one (the Relictors), to go with the original Puritan/Radical split in the Inquisition. SM players would have two different flavours of 'the ends justify the means'. Now we only have the radical flavour.

Frankly, the Grey Knights are no longer grey, but pitch black. And this is boring.

The Bloodtide scene is crap, like something out of a Cradle of Filth song. Yeah, the GKs can be utterly ruthless, that's nothing new, now could you find a less rubbish way to convey this? No need for anything fancy, the regular Wh40k B-horror movie level will do just fine.

And Draigo writing his predecessor's name on Mortarion's heart is even worse. I can forgive this scene how it invalidates, or at least complicates, Typhus's fluff. But I can't forgive it how it shows a Space Marine humiliating a Primarch, and a Daemon Primarch at that. Aurelian and a hundred GK termies found their doom in banishing Angron. Yet Draigo is basically Nelson to Mortarion's Milhouse.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

xcasex wrote:I distinctly recall some early fluff about the GK's think it was pre-2ed.
They definetly never were good, good guys. they're indiscriminate in how they work to purge the taint.

(the story itself, centered around an imperial planetary commander, who dealt with tzeentch and was lured, so his little helper had by some odd way of communicating gotten the word to the GKs who teleported in and the story ended with them, well. Killing everything.)

Wasn't that not Captain Stern.
From what I remebe Stern and his retinue teleported into the main chambers bolters blazing killing all but the governer, this was strange as he had take several shots himself. Then he started laughing and then transformed in the Lord of Change that is Stern's nemesis.

@ Visitor13
They were always called the Grey Knights implying they were not the Holier than Thou people they appear to be.
The complaint thta only one SM chapter can fill the grey slot is bogus, when you have 1,000 chapters more than one is going to fall into that category but GW has only highlighted the relictors because they will probaly turn in the CSM codex or SM codex.

**Visitor13**

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

@ Visitor13
They were always called the Grey Knights implying they were not the Holier than Thou people they appear to be.

Where did I say they were "Holier Than Thou"?

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: The complaint thta only one SM chapter can fill the grey slot is bogus, when you have 1,000 chapters more than one is going to fall into that category but GW has only highlighted the relictors because they will probaly turn in the CSM codex or SM codex.

I meant to say there should be a balance between the 'puritan' and the 'radical' branch in terms of SM chapters. Now we have at least two (three with the Exorcists?) chapters in the 'radical' category and none (known) in the 'puritan' one. And both categories actually qualify as 'grey', since both puritans and radicals are essentially very nasty people. But the manner in which the radical aspect of the GKs is now stressed is so clumsy (we can be evil enough to BATHE IN THE BLOOD OF INNOCENT VIRGINS RARRR) that they come off as far more black than grey.

**Henners91**

I just looked up the fluff for Draigo.

I slammed my head so hard against my desk that it's covered in a bloody mess of smashed teeth.

**Kanluwen**

Henners91 wrote:I just looked up the fluff for Draigo.

I slammed my head so hard against my desk that it's covered in a bloody mess of smashed teeth.

Then clearly you didn't actually read the fluff.

**htj**

I'm not a fan of a lot of the more recent Imperial fluff. I don't think Matt Ward is particularly to blame, but there has been a definite trend towards casting the Imperium as mighty heroes. I've been an Imperial player since I was 15 and the main draw to me was the fact that they were set up to lose. To me, Space Marines were a crumbling network of psychotic warbands who, despite being genetically modified to be monstrous inhumans, still had a a tough time holding off the forces of an unbelievably cruel galaxy. Anyone who tells me that grimdark in 40K is a new thing will have a tough time of it convincing me.

Now, I've read the 5th ed. Space Marines codex, and I've read bits and pieces of the Grey Knights codex and I feel a distinct trend towards Marines being full of epic individuals and titanic heroes. It just doesn't feel like the 40K universe I grew up with. Draigo is a good example of this, for me. I'm not a huge fan of the blood-tide bit either, it feels off in a way that I can't quite vocalise.

Oh, and for the record. I'm new to Dakka Dakka, but I've popped around various forums for quite some time. I was geniunely shocked to see the MOD tag next to the OP's name after reading the first paragraph. It contained an amount of vitriol I have never seen expressed by a Mod on any forum. Saying you are offended by someone criticising your actions as representative of your Mod status is not a defence for violating the forum rules it is your position to uphold. I read the rules before I posted. Be polite.

I'm 27 by the way, and at heart I'm a crotchety old man. I agree that there is a lot of over-the-top reactionism towards some of Ward's more... enthusiatic writing, but I'm sticking with my absolutely subjective opinion that the current fluff is just not as good as it used to be.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Sigh. Manchu take a lesson from politicians. Never admit to wrong doing it merely fans the flames of nerdrage. It does not quash them but feeds them.

**Kanluwen**

htj wrote:I'm not a fan of a lot of the more recent Imperial fluff. I don't think Matt Ward is particularly to blame, but there has been a definite trend towards casting the Imperium as mighty heroes. I've been an Imperial player since I was 15 and the main draw to me was the fact that they were set up to lose. To me, Space Marines were a crumbling network of psychotic warbands who, despite being genetically modified to be monstrous inhumans, still had a a tough time holding off the forces of an unbelievably cruel galaxy. Anyone who tells me that grimdark in 40K is a new thing will have a tough time of it convincing me.

Now, I've read the 5th ed. Space Marines codex, and I've read bits and pieces of the Grey Knights codex and I feel a distinct trend towards Marines being full of epic individuals and titanic heroes. It just doesn't feel like the 40K universe I grew up with. Draigo is a good example of this, for me. I'm not a huge fan of the blood-tide bit either, it feels off in a way that I can't quite vocalise.

I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".

The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.

Oh, and for the record. I'm new to Dakka Dakka, but I've popped around various forums for quite some time. I was geniunely shocked to see the MOD tag next to the OP's name after reading the first paragraph. It contained an amount of vitriol I have never seen expressed by a Mod on any forum. Saying you are offended by someone criticising your actions as representative of your Mod status is not a defence for violating the forum rules it is your position to uphold. I read the rules before I posted. Be polite.

Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.

He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.

I'm 27 by the way, and at heart I'm a crotchety old man. I agree that there is a lot of over-the-top reactionism towards some of Ward's more... enthusiatic writing, but I'm sticking with my absolutely subjective opinion that the current fluff is just not as good as it used to be.

At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.

Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool

**Artemo**

Ah, yes. I think it's the fact they killed space nuns that has everyone in a tiz... had it been a chapter of space marines that the GK killed members of, nobody would have batted an eye. But space nuns in their FMB's and power-bondage corsets must be untouchable simply because they are somehow deemed 'innocent' (as Gene Hackman says in Unforgiven, 'Innocent of what?').

I agree that the story itself is kind of overblown tosh, but then so is almost all GW background material. As I say, I understand if it doesn't fit with what people would like, but I'm not really convinced myself that it's so terrible a thing in 40K universe terms.

**Visitor13**

Artemo wrote:Ah, yes. I think it's the fact they killed space nuns that has everyone in a tiz... .

I think it's more the whole 'bathing in blood' thing. It's ok for the GKs to be doing some pretty nasty stuff, but it really does not have to be same stuff the Word Bearers and the Emperor's Children do on a slow day.

**Kanluwen**

And it's been said, time and bloody time again there is no 'bathing in blood thing'.

The term used is "ritually anointed". That is not "bathing in blood", unless when you're 'anointed' by a priest you're 'bathed in water'.

This kind of thing is why we get these overreactionist, silly 'insights' from people about the various pieces of fluff.

**Visitor13**

Bathing in blood, being 'ritually anointed' with it, whatever, they got their blood onto their armour (probably while intoning some occult BS). Same kind of ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing.