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Kanluwen wrote:I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".

The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.

Sure, they had powerful individuals, but it's the way they're written now that gets to me. It feels more like they're omigosh so awesome!, the fluff seems almost breathless in its praise for them. I'm not against over-the-top events, I wouldn't be interested in 40K if I were. It's over-the-top writing that I dislike. Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm finding it tricky to explain.

Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.

He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.

It was the comment about whining from sixteen year olds and people with the hearts of sixteen year olds that I was shocked by. This is the kind of comment I would expect a Mod to come down on, not make. The rest of the post was well written and presented, a refreshing counterpoint to the blind Ward-hate that is prevalent on the forums, but it was marred by this hostile beginning. I'm not going to cast aspersions on Manchu's modding as a whole, I'm not familiar with it enough, but I feel justified in criticising his approach and reaction to criticism here. I don't know, maybe I take Modding too seriously, but I believe that in order to maintain authority against those who make hostile comments a Mod should refrain from doing so themselves. I respect Manchu's choice to leave the comment there, though, it seems an honourable thing to do.

Kanluwen wrote:
At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.

Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool

Oh, absolutely it's getting deeper. And the more you produce, the more likely there'll be more glaring examples of bad fluff. Personally, I prefered the universe when there was more mystery to it, but that's just me. Kiddy pool and olympic size? Perhaps. I prefer the comparison between haut cuisine and Hungry Horse.

I'm pretty surprised to see that people are so offended by the association of immaturity with a certain age. An age traditionally associated with immaturity. In all honesty, there's nothing defensible about maintaining that you absolutely hate a certain set of stories, that these stories are anathema to everything that 40k is "really about," that a single writer is completely incompetent and useless -- all without giving any coherent reasons for these things. And sometimes I even read people admitting to not having actually read the stuff they are so absolutely disgusted with. Amazing.

So it's not really the case that I'm dismissing the possibility that the Bloodtide story might not be good. Rather I'm dismissing the possibility that the hate has really been accounted for on the part of the haters. My contention is that a lot of posters are just going along with a general current in order to appear witty and insightful. My further contention is that, whether or not they are witty, they're certainly not insightful. Insight is expressed by analysis. Where I failed was in attempting to write about this in a pithy way rather than carefully and neutrally explaining just how dumb the Ward-hate appears.

Now, I've heard a lot of fluff arguments over my time at Dakka that begin with "To me, 40k is . . ." That's not a very good argument for why something is not good. Again, there is a difference between not liking something and something not being good. For example, I may not like Thomas Kincaid paintings but it's not because they are technically deficient. To the extent that one of his cottage landscapes is a "bad painting," it's bad because I don't like it. It doesn't fit with what I personally want to hang on my walls. And that's fine. But it doesn't mean a thing with regard to the actual quality of the painting on its own terms. It's supposed to be a sappy, comforting scene.

Similarly, 40k is and has always been completely OTT. Matt Ward is perfectly in tune with that. As I have demonstrated, his fluff writing is internally consistent as to itself and consistent with what has been written in the past. If you don't like it, fine. No one has the right to tell you that you should like it. And you are entirely free to hold opinions that have no basis in reason.

Now, on to some interesting points:

Visitor13 wrote:There really was no need to highlight the radical side of the GKs. They were already 'grey' enough, what with their propensity to kill the witnesses and their inevitable study of warp artifacts.They could very well be 'puritan' and still be ruthless and grimdark enough for everyone.

The GK were not depicted as Puritans in C: DH. At best, that is an inference drawn from not being able to use Daemonhosts in your Inquisitor retinues when you took GKs. But, as I've already explained, all this really means is that GKs either (or both) don't like daemonhosts or don't trust anyone other than GK to turn the enemies' weapons upon them. Now, are you arguing that the GK should have been portrayed as Puritans for the sake of some extremely minor SM chapter? I certainly understand your point. The Relictors already had a character with a daemon sword. But I just don't see why a major faction with its own dex should be bothered about not stepping on the toes of a minor SM chapter. To me, it's like saying the technical expertise of the Tau shouldn't be played up because that's the Jokaeros' shtick.

In any case, your point is actually really interesting to me. It highlights another theme of the GK -- namely that while they are explicitly a part of the Inquisition, they seem to transcend these kind of debates. GKs are above being declared Radical and need not strive to appear Puritanical. I think this is even mentioned with regard to the feud between Valeria and Darkhammer.

Visitor13 wrote:Bathing in blood, being 'ritually anointed' with it, whatever, they got their blood onto their armour (probably while intoning some occult BS). Same kind of ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing.

So you're saying that when you're baptized by a priest or given a dab of holy water when receiving a blessing it's a "ridiculous, cheesy, EVUL thing"?

Because that, in all honesty, is likely what happened.

Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.

And perhaps us 'whiners' are sick to the back teeth of the butt loving that the Matt Ward fans are giving his clearly bad Grey Knight fluff. Which, yeah, is cleary bad.

Manchu wrote:But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

No, no it doesn't. The story makes sense agreed, but that is not what I disagree with. It's the act itself. Not once have I seen this mentioned before. In the previous Grey Knight Index Astartes articles, any background story, codex nor Black Library publication that I have read before. Now it might be out there somewhere, but I have not come across an instance of this. Oh, there is one instance that I can think of, that just happens to tie in nicely with the release of the new Codex, Sacrifice in the Victories anthology. Nice save there by the way Mr. Counter

Manchu wrote:Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.

I don't like the story and it is stupid. The story makes sense, but it is something that the Grey Knights wouldn't do, as they wouldn't need to sacrifice the Sisters. Matt Ward might have done a good job in your opinion in mine and many others he did not.

oh yeah and 'waaahh, you hate Ward so you hate GW' gimme a break. It's because I am a fan of GW that I even comment, I love the hobby and the background.

htj wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I hate to tell you but the Marines have pretty much , at least since their revision from just being "guys in armor" to the genetically engineered superhumans they are now, always had "epic individuals and titanic heroes".

The whole point of the Astartes is that they're the demigods of the Imperium. They're aloof and as far from human as any one of the demigods of myth were.

Sure, they had powerful individuals, but it's the way they're written now that gets to me. It feels more like they're omigosh so awesome!, the fluff seems almost breathless in its praise for them. I'm not against over-the-top events, I wouldn't be interested in 40K if I were. It's over-the-top writing that I dislike. Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm finding it tricky to explain.

No, I get you entirely. But the problem is always that when you punch down to it: there's just not a good way to stress how absurdly 'not human' that the Astartes and their ilk are without starting to stray into over-the-top writing.

Because you either have to make Astartes heroic examples, shining beacons of valor defending mankind--or heartless and callous bastards who only intervene on mankind's behalf because of the fact that it means they get to kill.

Kanluwen wrote:Quite frankly, Manchu's not gone really 'overboard' in any case. People whine far too much about Mat Ward's writing style.

He's not Shakespeare, but at the same time in cases like Draigo it's far less over the top if people would sit down at their FLGS, shut up for awhile and take the time to actually read the fluff rather than rely on second or third hand accounts.

It was the comment about whining from sixteen year olds and people with the hearts of sixteen year olds that I was shocked by.

He wasn't really saying that it was "whining from 16-year-olds", but rather that it was "whining like sixteen year olds".
They may sound similar, but when it comes down to it: teenagers complain. Alot. About pretty much anything and everything they possibly can.

This is the kind of comment I would expect a Mod to come down on, not make. The rest of the post was well written and presented, a refreshing counterpoint to the blind Ward-hate that is prevalent on the forums, but it was marred by this hostile beginning.

It really wasn't that 'hostile'. It was more condemning of the whole attitude than anything else. There's been an ungodly amount of threads relating to various parts of the Grey Knights Codex, and almost all of them deal with some variation "Well I heard from my buddy Joe that this and then this and then this happens. WTF GW!".
It's also important to remember that while they might have that 'mod' tag on their name--they're still just posters like you or I unless they post like this .

When the red text comes out: they're acting official. Otherwise, they're just Joe Schmoe.

Kanluwen wrote:
At the same time, while the "current fluff is just not as good as it used to be"...it's becoming much deeper in places.
The Grey Knights used to have the equivalent of a kiddy pool describing how they were organized or how they operated or any number of things.
We've gone from a kiddy pool to a full-sized, in-ground swimming pool.

Of course, after you go from that it becomes a bit easier to notice the warm spots in the pool

Oh, absolutely it's getting deeper. And the more you produce, the more likely there'll be more glaring examples of bad fluff. Personally, I prefered the universe when there was more mystery to it, but that's just me. Kiddy pool and olympic size? Perhaps. I prefer the comparison between haut cuisine and Hungry Horse.

@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.

@Visitor13: Oh and weren't the Soul Drinkers around before the Relictors?

@Manchu

The statement came across like a sweeping brush implying immaturity in anyone who doesn't like Matt Ward's fluff and it coloured the reading over the rest of the post. That's the only reason I balked at it, but I can't speak for others. I understand now that that wasn't your intention, and that it was intended as humourous. Perhaps this isn't the first time a statement intended as humour has been misinterpreted on the internet? Nah, doesn't seem likely.

I think that most people, when they approach something that they don't like, will call it bad. With something as subjective as the feeling you get from a background, if something feels jarringly out of place then, yeah, most people will consider it 'bad' in that it doesn't work in what they consider the setting to be. If we're talking pure technically ability, well, the man can clearly type and make himself understood. So I guess if that's the question then, sure, Ward's fluff is good fluff.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:I couldn't help but notice the collective whine of contempt issued by sixteen year-olds, including those who are sixteen at heart, across Dakka after the release of the new GK dex. Now I understand that it is cool (or what passes for cool among us wargamers) to hate on Ultramarines and Matt Ward.

And perhaps us 'whiners' are sick to the back teeth of the butt loving that the Matt Ward fans are giving his clearly bad Grey Knight fluff. Which, yeah, is cleary bad.

Let's see you write better fluff.

Manchu wrote:But I was pretty stumped by the particular level of grief generated by Ward's story of the GK fighting the Bloodtide on Van Horne. Yeah, the one with the "daemonic blood ritual sacrifice of Sisters of Battle." I've seen the claims (I think they are separate claims) that this is utterly stupid and a revision of everything the GK formerly were about. In fact, it makes perfect sense given the GK's major themes. Not only does it make perfect sense, actually, it's also in no way a revision of past GK fluff.

No, no it doesn't. The story makes sense agreed, but that is not what I disagree with. It's the act itself. Not once have I seen this mentioned before. In the previous Grey Knight Index Astartes articles, any background story, codex nor Black Library publication that I have read before. Now it might be out there somewhere, but I have not come across an instance of this. Oh, there is one instance that I can think of, that just happens to tie in nicely with the release of the new Codex, Sacrifice in the Victories anthology. Nice save there by the way Mr. Counter

The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.

Manchu wrote:Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.

I don't like the story and it is stupid. The story makes sense, but it is something that the Grey Knights wouldn't do, as they wouldn't need to sacrifice the Sisters.

So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".

Matt Ward might have done a good job in your opinion in mine and many others he did not.

"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.

oh yeah and 'waaahh, you hate Ward so you hate GW' gimme a break. It's because I am a fan of GW that I even comment, I love the hobby and the background.

Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.

And as a sidenote?
It's pretty ridiculous that people complain more about the price of the models than the story.

@htj: It's a bit more than that. He's clearly much more familiar with the 40k background than 99% of all Dakka posters and carefully identified and carried on the core themes of the GK fluff while, as Kanluwen points out, taking it from two pages to about twenty.

Manchu wrote:@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.

My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground thety already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.

It's just an unneccesary story to make them seem more extreme and super bad ass than they were before.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Pilau Rice: The Bloodtide story is about a specific example of how the GK use the tools of the daemonic against the daemonic. Obviously, every story will not be about the same specific example.

My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground they already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.

Eh?
In the background they'd also had 'sacred unguents' that they applied to their armor 'in arcane rituals' to prevent them from being affected by most forms of Daemonic influence, from the average Daemon they'd encounter.
A Daemon that was powerful enough to:
1) Materialize itself within real-space, with no summoning required
2) Corrupt an entire Hive City within moments of its awakening
3) Effectively open Warp Rifts within the confines of sanctified ground
is so far beyond 'the average Daemon they'd encounter' that it makes sense that they would effectively hit the 'Oh gak' button and go to drastic measures.

It's just an unnecessary story to make them seem more extreme and super bad ass than they were before.

It's also a 'story' that is all of three or four paragraphs and really a brief overview of a situation that enveloped an entire planet.

Pilau Rice wrote:My point is that it had never been necessary before when fighting the Daemonic in any other story. Perhaps that's because they hadn't come across it before. But according the their back ground thety already had enough to deal with any situation involving the daemon.

That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.

Kanluwen wrote:
Let's see you write better fluff.

Wouldn't want to do GW writers job now for them would I, not without payment anyway

Kanluwen wrote:I don't think you can. You can't even spell 'clearly' right.

Oh no, I forgot an 'L' my posting on forum days are over ...

I think I could though, if I got someone to type it for me, do you want to be my typist Kan?

Kanluwen wrote:The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.

And whats wrong with that, or the Black Library stories or other background stories there have been? Not all of the codex, but the certain ones that haev been commented on ARE
that bad and are unneccessary.

Kanluwen wrote:So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".

Err, I dunno Kan, maybe use some of that awesome psychic power to put up some sort of super dooper daemon stopping power faith barrier? Or even teleport off the planet, save the sisters and kill the Bad guys by Exterminatus? James Bond style. See, there is my amazing fluff skills showing.

Kanluwen wrote:"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.

And they shouldn't just jump on the band wagon agreed

Manchu wrote:That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.

The argument is valid, thats a fair bit of background when you consider someone like the Iron Hands who have very little.

Hmm, First war of Armageddon also springs to mind, which was a major daemonic incursion

Anyway, i've said my piece, given the reasons why I don't like it and backed it up where I can. You can't change my opinon of it the same way I couldn't change yours, I'm hungry now and, although I'm sure this will continue, will be ducking out for a nice Steak and Chips. OOh, post 500

Matt Ward's fluff is not fine! He completely disregarded the Sisters of Battle's fluff when he mention some of the Sisters became corrupted from the Bloodtide.

"A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the prince of chaos' greatest warriors." - Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition

If he ever writes Codex Sisters of Battle, he better redeem himself by inserting a story where Sisters torches an army of daemonically possessed Grey Knights!

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Let's see you write better fluff.

Wouldn't want to do GW writers job now for them would I, not without payment anyway

Kanluwen wrote:I don't think you can. You can't even spell 'clearly' right.

Oh no, I forgot an 'L' my posting on forum days are over ...

I think I could though, if I got someone to type it for me, do you want to be my typist Kan?

Not unless I'm paid!

Kanluwen wrote:The "previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article" was just that: the 'previous Grey Knight Index Astartes article'.
It was dealing with an organization that, at the time, had only three solid tenants that were laid down: they fought Daemons, they wore Aegis armor and used Nemesis weapons, and they were based on the moon Titan.

And whats wrong with that, or the Black Library stories or other background stories there have been? Not all of the codex, but the certain ones that haev been commented on ARE
that bad and are unneccessary.

Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.

Kanluwen wrote:So what would the Grey Knights do? "Welp, we can't get to the Daemon--time for a beer break".

Err, I dunno Kan, maybe use some of that awesome psychic power to put up some sort of super dooper daemon stopping power faith barrier? Or even teleport off the planet, save the sisters and kill the Bad guys by Exterminatus? James Bond style. See, there is my amazing fluff skills showing.

Exterminatus on a Shrineworld? Yeah...that won't happen I'd suggest you read "Cadian Blood" by Aaron Dembski-Bowden to give you an idea as to the kinds of hand-tying that goes on when reclaiming Shrineworlds.

The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.

Kanluwen wrote:"The many others" whose opinions have been pushed about this topic have majorly admitted to never actually reading the story.
They don't even bloody read the thing when it's been posted as a straight scan by posters on here.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering most of the posts don't even come down to "I hate this story because it ruins my view of the Grey Knights" but rather "I hate this story because Games Workshop is stupid", his point is pretty valid.

And they shouldn't just jump on the band wagon agreed

And yet, it's the most popular thing to happen on forums. That's really what Manchu seems to be railing at.

Manchu wrote:That argument would be valid if we had an exhaustive list of the ways with which GK deal with daemons. As it stood, we had two pages fro C: DH, a White Dwarf Article (that they shared with the Death Watch), and Ben Counter's novels about one particular group.

The argument is valid, that's a fair bit of background when you consider someone like the Iron Hands who have very little.

The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.

Hmm, First war of Armageddon also springs to mind, which was a major daemonic incursion

The First War of Armageddon was also against Angron and his 'warhost' gifted to him by Khorne, where the Grey Knights fought as part of a whole 'force' not by themselves.

The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.

When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.

Kanluwen wrote:Not unless I'm paid!

I'll pay you in Matt Ward fluff, deal?

Kanluwen wrote:
Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.

A whole series about Grey Knights not being useful ... well I be jiggered ..

Kanluwen wrote:
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.

Where was Draigo when they needed him eh? Oh no i mentioned the other thing in the Codex that people really don't like Still doesn't make it good Kan, they knew what they were getting into. The Blood Tide has been mentioned before in other fluff, the Grey Knights know the Daemon and all things Daemonic. Maybe they will start carrying a load of Sisters around in cages just in case

Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.

And the Index Astartes is just that, a summary of the Grey Knights. It basically says that they are the best thing against Daemons, live on Titan and that their harder than hard. The Iron Hands pretty much only have the IA article.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.

When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.

Yeah, still not convinced.

Manchu wrote:@htj: It's a bit more than that. He's clearly much more familiar with the 40k background than 99% of all Dakka posters and carefully identified and carried on the core themes of the GK fluff while, as Kanluwen points out, taking it from two pages to about twenty.

I'm not sure that I'd agree that he identified and carried on the core themes, but that's a matter that could roll around in debate forever, and would I think. Otherwise, you make a fair point. I'm gonna dip out now, because this is getting hotter and hotter and I suspect you might need to break out the red ink soon. Best if I don't make too many enemies after I just got here.

htj wrote:I'm gonna dip out now, because this is getting hotter and hotter and I suspect you might need to break out the red ink soon. Best if I don't make too many enemies after I just got here.

No don't, stay! They'll bring out the cake of calming soon

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Because, at best, there was no real actual content within those sources.
We learned absolutely nothing actually useful about the Grey Knights from the "Grey Knights" novels by Ben Counter.

A whole series about Grey Knights not being useful ... well I be jiggered ..

For giving us the insight of Alaric's Grey Knight squad? It was useful.

For actually figuring out anything, whatsoever about the Grey Knights as a whole? It tells us nothing.
Just like how "Gaunt's Ghosts" doesn't give us insight into the Cadian Regiments.

Kanluwen wrote:
The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything, since they were fighting a Bloodthirster and other Khornate Daemons. A very angry and ancient Bloodthirster that had spent quite a long time imprisoned in a stasis field, specifically so that he could not retreat to the Warp.

Where was Draigo when they needed him eh? Oh no i mentioned the other thing in the Codex that people really don't like Still doesn't make it good Kan, they knew what they were getting into. The Blood Tide has been mentioned before in other fluff, the Grey Knights know the Daemon and all things Daemonic. Maybe they will start carrying a load of Sisters around in cages just in case

The Bloodtide has been mentioned before in other fluff--but never in any depth.
It was the creation of Andy Hoare, featuring in "The Hunt for Voldorius" where Voldorius "attempted to awaken the Bloodtide".
The only other mention is a sentence long in the main rulebook.

As for Draigo: he's becoming like the Green Knight of Bretonnia. He shows up "when things are most dire".

Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands, while having 'very little' fluff--have fluff about the important parts. Their temperament, the way they're organized, how they fight, etc.

And the Index Astartes is just that, a summary of the Grey Knights. It basically says that they are the best thing against Daemons, live on Titan and that they're harder than hard. The Iron Hands pretty much only have the IA article.

The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.

The Deathwatch and Grey Knights both had very very little actual 'solid' facts about them. That's being altered now, and things are going to hurt while the changes come.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Grey Knights in the 'Bloodtide' anecdote were by themselves, exceeding a small amount of 'uncorrupted Sisters'.

When it comes down to it, it was a case of 'Needs must, when the Devil's behind the wheel' and Sisters and the population of a Shrineworld are replaceable.

Yeah, still not convinced.

But you said as much that "you're not going to be convinced", no matter what gets put in front of you.

Putting it simply, people need to learn this fact:
The Grey Knights and the Inquisition will never be shining paragons of humanity and virtue, they will always be those who do what they must to prevent Mankind from falling into an orgy of destruction.

@Kan:

The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything,

This trio of librarians didn't push back the bloodtide ? Seems the power of the GK does something, without the desecration of their heraldry....

The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to neccessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.

And the Grey Knights article gave you pretty much everything there was on them. There aren't that many of them and they are a secretive bunch so, you know, the article was much shorter

Kanluwen wrote:
Putting it simply, people need to learn this fact:
The Grey Knights and the Inquisition will never be shining paragons of humanity and virtue, they will always be those who do what they must to prevent Mankind from falling into an orgy of destruction.

This is true of the Inquisiton and I whole heartedly agree with you here.

But this was not entirely true of the older Grey Knights, the sterilisation, incarceration or murder of populations is a necessary evil to keep the taint of chaos at bay and prevent it from spreading. But other than this they were the embodiment of the ideals of the Emperor and purer than pure.

I don't like the New Grey Knights Kan, and I don't think I will. But your right now, and what you say is true. I'm not admittiing defeat at all in our disagreement, but the new fluff is fluff and that's the way it is. Like it or lump it.

I for one will to continue to lump it ...

1hadhq wrote:@Kan:

The 'awesome psychic power of the Grey Knights' wouldn't have done anything,

This trio of librarians didn't push back the bloodtide ? Seems the power of the GK does something, without the desecration of their heraldry....

It might do something against the Bloodtide, but it likely wouldn't do anything against the Bloodthirster himself

The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to necessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.

I bolded the part that makes it a 'necessary evil'.
The psykers may have done their job even in danger, but the fact that they needed to survive the encounter means that them anointing their wargear with the blood of the pure innocent is a 'necessary evil'.

Pilau Rice wrote:This is true of the Inquisition and I whole heartedly agree with you here.

But this was not entirely true of the older Grey Knights, the sterilisation, incarceration or murder of populations is a necessary evil to keep the taint of chaos at bay and prevent it from spreading.

But the fact of the matter is that the Grey Knights are part of the Inquisition. When it comes down to it, the Ordo Malleus does not feth around when it comes to the daemonic.

But other than this they were the embodiment of the ideals of the Emperor and purer than pure.

And with the Emperor's ideals being further refined with the Horus Heresy novels, the Grey Knights have been more refined to match those ideals.

I don't like the New Grey Knights Kan, and I don't think I will. But your right now, and what you say is true. I'm not admittiing defeat at all in our disagreement, but the new fluff is fluff and that's the way it is. Like it or lump it.

I for one will to continue to lump it ...

I WIN!

Kanluwen wrote:

It might do something against the Bloodtide, but it likely wouldn't do anything against the Bloodthirster himself

Theyre not alone.

1hadhq wrote:
The whole "blood of the innocent" is all about 100% protection, not taking risks. A bit different to necessary evil. The psykers would have done their job even in danger as GK know they may die unremembered.

Kanluwen wrote:
I bolded the part that makes it a 'necessary evil'.
The psykers may have done their job even in danger, but the fact that they needed to survive the encounter means that them anointing their wargear with the blood of the pure innocent is a 'necessary evil'.

Seems the GK brother fighting the Demon didn't survive. Smeared not enough blood on his war-plate?
Survival is not a primary goal. Mission accomplished IS.

Kanluwen wrote:
I WIN!

The cake? Free beer?

I win us a month of no more whines about Mat Ward's fluff.

You're welcome, Dakka.

The devil is in the details. For example the 1st Armaggeddon war genocide has been in the background for a while but people just overlooked it or didn't think it was that bad because it was two sentences. When Ward expanded this story it became even more horrific because we knew the details and process of this massacre. Thing is it was always horrible it just becomes more shocking the more we know and he only fleshed out that post-war a little.

Codex fluff (to me) are a collection of stories meant to jazz you up and make you feel you NEED to collect an army (I am certain power gamers probably have another viewpoint).

In the previous GK codex, GW achieved this through the following principles:

- The greatest heroes of the Imperium that will forever remain unsung and unremembered
- Exalted warriors that even a SM would find hard to match due to their torturous training and innate potential
- Consumate professionals (like Master Chief from Halo but on steriods), never complaining...

Remember the fluff (from WD) when Angron plunged his rune blade into the GK fighting him, "Your soul is mine to torment forever in the warp!" or words to that effect? The GK answered, "So be it." I still get goosebumps from that.

Mat Ward has essentially demeaned my memories of the GK by making them into:

- Comic book supermen (Draigo)
- SM who have their own ghosts, greviances, frustrations... etc (and how are they immune to the lure of chaos again?)
- Purifiers who are even more "PURE" than their brother marines
- Crowe who is the PUREST (TM) of them all...
- The SOB debacle
- SM who does not die (Thawn)

I am certain a writer of greater skill could probably pull the above off and still make the reader feel inspired and want to collect the army. After finishing the fluff, I had ZERO inclination to add to my existing GK 2k pts collection. In fact, I went from keen to total disinterest.

Having said that, some folks who are new to the GK might go:

"He did what?"
"Smashed the Blood God's avatar on his home turf!"
"Geez man, he's the hot sauce!"
"That's not all, he also took the bloodthirster's axe and reforged it into the titansword! Stength 10!!!!"
"Wow! Hardcore dude!"
"Yeah, he is sooo... awesome that he even found the time to carve his brother's name onto a daemon primarch's heart!"
<runs off to buy army>

Anyone with hindsight can eventually justify the fluff (except Draigo) but poorly written stories remain poor stories.

That's your opinion. I found the GKs to be insufferable Mary Sues before. I like them more now because they are greyer. If someone collects Dark Eldar because they look cool then picks up the codex and realizes "hey, these guys are jerks" - well that's just funny.

Manchu wrote:Getting ninja'd is good here, pretre. It bears repeating, since this is apparently a big cause of the confusion/frustration:

GK are not totally immune to the lure of Chaos.

The thing is though smearing blood on your weapons and armour, isn't going to really have any effect on your mental fortitude which is my main gripe with the story.

We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader -- i.e., Kanluwen -- has already pointed out that it could have been a kind of physical as well as spiritual compulsion. Out of everyone on Van Horne, only a fraction of the Sisters were able to resist it. We don't know what level of resistance they were able to muster or any other details about how it works. What we do know is that the Sisters themselves were not up to the task of ending the Bloodtide, despite their resistance. The Grey Knights, having performed the ritual, seem to have counteracted the power of the Bloodtide so that they could, with their superior capacity against this enemy, end the incursion. In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely) was a necessary condition for the Grey Knights to defeat the Bloodtide. The issue is not entirely mental or entirely physical. This is the Warp we're talking about. It's a strange confluence of the real and the unreal. This is why things like chants, prayers, and even rituals have an effect in the 40k universe.

Reasonable?

Take that back!