Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok my eyes burn now. I'm going to add a few thoughts without going rooting in boxes for specific wording from sources etc so this isn't 100%, just what I seem to remember and view on this whole thing.

The GK's are pretty much the elite of the space marines. The thing of flesh is weak means they can die before their job is done, but their souls etc wont fall to the lure of chaos. Their training and initiation sees to that, this chapter will happily kill an initiate if they fall below their standards which is above that of the other chapters by far.
They've been around since RT days, there's fluff in that era and 2nd ed to add to the DH codex and couple of WD pages mentioned.
They're used sparringly against the threats of chaos, not just daemons, they were space hulk options when going against chaos instead of stealers. That piece of fluff is why I wouldn't use an army of them except maybe in a specific scenario, and that one off game wouldn't justify the cost of an army.
I'm 100% certain the teleporting to the planetary governer story was in the dark millenium expansion for 2nd ed.
Now if anyone is seriously hey wait a minute and wishing to flame that bit when my kids are back at their mum's I'll go through a lot of boxes, however I expect paid for my time, I have better uses of it than to argue on the internet, the above is just what I remember from previous takes on them.

Now the whole point of the thread, Matt Ward. Not read the GK codex, or even the BA one. Me and 40k kinda drifted apart with codex creep. But from the example stated I'm finding it incredulous. If an actual alliance (Dante and a lord meeting up under a truce and agreeing to kill nids first) was what happened erm... go ahead rip into him. GK's killing a sister? Well if she was tainted sure, purge the taint, sacrifice to make an ointment? Erm... They're meant to be psykers, not sorcerers founded mysteriously, their origins so secret even most the imperiums elite don't have a clue where they came from.
As each one has a psychic ability it's this that makes them so suited to fighting the taint of chaos especially daemons, and they were always shown as being above even other marine chapters. I'm fairly certain the original fluff for the first war of armageddon (in a white dwarf when I was a teenager, I'm 33 now incidently) mentioned the other chapters getting mind wiped after the war simply because a space marine was too valuable a resource to just dispose of unlike regular guardsmen and the surviving population. This wasn't done to hide the nature of the GK's, their operating methods or whatever, simply to contain any lingering taint and destroy it. They were always said to be a militant arm associated with the inquisition.
Now it's interesting to see they've put some gaps filled in, ending the msytery, for example the story of them being founded. Expanding them a bit is sort of cool, but not something that will have me frothing at the mouth as a must have (as some poor GW salesman found out trying to hard sell me them in the shop I popped into when passing to look at their cabinets).
Last thing that does annoy me. A lot. Some dude carved up a daemonicly ascended primarchs heart. Was the primarch in a coma? Seriously, they have been bigged up as "untouchable", "costly to banish back to the warp in invasions" (see first armageddon war) and only the Emperor, Horus and the chaos powers themselves are really who can handle these guys solo. Lot of firepower, planet levelling, and costs to life just to destroy their physical body sure believable.

In short they're really aiming the fluff at the under 12 mindset now. Grimdark 5th ed background of humanity is basically ed was great, this stuff lets it down. Badly. Next up the lone eldar guardian spanking a keeper of secrets before having slaanesh pleasure him in ways too mind boggling to print before going back to the craftworld free of any taint with a daemonette girlfriend or three? An extreme example, it's scarily a short step away.

From everything I have read Ward's fluff really needs some thinking through by him before he writes it in my opinion, if that makes me a whiner, whinger or 16 year old, then for not liking my favourite meal that makes other people the same?
But anyways thats my reasons for disliking it and what i have read.

And yep I realise this thread was to get people to stop and think why do i dislike this, am i just trying to jump on the whinge of the week bandwagon? I like the reason behind it but perhaps some better wording than just an insult at the start would have been a little better

So, lets discuss awesomeness and get a better topic going, like I've only got up to a certain point in the horus heresy books due to lack of funds, who lives nearby so i can borrow the rest? Now thats a topic worth me posting, scuse me folks, make way!

Manchu wrote:We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader -- i.e., Kanluwen -- has already pointed out that it could have been a kind of physical as well as spiritual compulsion. Out of everyone on Van Horne, only a fraction of the Sisters were able to resist it. We don't know what level of resistance they were able to muster or any other details about how it works. What we do know is that the Sisters themselves were not up to the task of ending the Bloodtide, despite their resistance. The Grey Knights, having performed the ritual, seem to have counteracted the power of the Bloodtide so that they could, with their superior capacity against this enemy, end the incursion. In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely) was a necessary condition for the Grey Knights to defeat the Bloodtide. The issue is not entirely mental or entirely physical. This is the Warp we're talking about. It's a strange confluence of the real and the unreal. This is why things like chants, prayers, and even rituals have an effect in the 40k universe.

But the only time we really see blood rituals in 40k is when it's chaos/dark-eldar related though why would it all of the sudden be used as a repellent against a warp-based disease it seems like a Deus Ex Machina. Also is

there anyway I can find more about the symptoms, effects and other info about Blood-tide?

Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.

Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.

So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.

Manchu wrote:We don't know much about the nature of the Bloodtide from the 2 paragraphs given. But at least one reasonable reader

So we're being unreasonable because we don't think that it fits in with what has already been established?

Manchu wrote:In other words, the blood sacrifice of the Sisters (which might have been, and probably was in light of their faith, given freely)

If something to this extent was what was written in the Codex, then it wouldn't be so bad. The way it is you can interpret it that the Grey Knights wimped out and turned their blades on the Sisters as a quick fix.

Why not

'Sisters, the Bloodtide is nearly upon us, but without your sacrifice we will not prevent the desecration of this world'.

I know there wasn't speech in the text in the codex, but you get the idea.

Then much stabbing and thrusting and daubing of blood on armour.

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.

So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.

More or less.

The main whining has nothing to do with the Bloodtide proper, but rather the Grey Knights using the Sisters as a conduit for a ritual working.

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.

So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.

More or less.

The main whining has nothing to do with the Bloodtide proper, but rather the Grey Knights using the Sisters as a conduit for a ritual working.

But still the question remains why are blood rituals are now being represented as chaos repellent when there's countless examples of it being used for sorcery and demons, I'm going to have to agree that this is bad

fluff change IMO.

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nope, because nothing's really been written about it Cheesecat.

So basically were arguing about something when we don't even know what it does.

More or less.

The main whining has nothing to do with the Bloodtide proper, but rather the Grey Knights using the Sisters as a conduit for a ritual working.

But still the question remains why are blood rituals are now being represented as chaos repellent when there's countless examples of it being used for sorcery and demons, I'm going to have to agree that this is bad

They're not?

The thing you're missing is that the 'blood of an innocent' is part of the ritual, not the only thing. It was mixed with oils and unguents as part of the ritual to create the end product, which was used as an 'anointing oil' for the wargear.

@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.

I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.

The thing I find the most deplorable is the hate of Matt Ward himself. I mean, sure, the fluff might be silly, but that hardly makes him bad...

Still, the older Daemonhunter Codex paints the Grey Knights as incorruptible super-marines for whom faith alone in the Emperor shielded them from the horrors of the Warp. Sure, while that isn't necessarily true of the new book, a lot of the ideas of the new book seem silly to me.

Purifier order? Really? I mean, I get it. They're 'pure-er' than everyone else, but then what's more pure than pure? And writing on Mortarion's heart, as well as burning Nurgle's Garden? That's just over the top, really. We get it, we already know Grey Knights are super-badass space men who are totally incorruptible and manly, my problem with his fluff is that it seems like he's trying so hard to make an impression that the Grey Knights are interesting that he overdoes it. The blood incident I suppose I can get over, but I really think that Ward should have noticed it'd cause a bit of grumbling, and I'm not sure what his idea was behind it.

All in all, Matt Ward isn't a bad writer or whatever, I just feel like he doesn't need to try so hard to make us think that Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Whatever are cool/super badass.

I have to admit that I jumped on the 'we all hate Matt Ward' bandwagon a little bit (more like running along side). I think I might stop and grab on to this one instead.

His fluff ideas are there, the actual execution and writing style lets it down.
The GKs may have at one point been this 'White Knight' group of holy warriors who protect humanity. I always liked to think of them as the only shining beacon organisation that didn't sacrifice millions of the IoMs ordinary citizens to achieve some higher goal. Evidently they have never been quite like that. They may not have been on quite the same level as the Inquisition but they did what was necessary to keep their existence a secret.

The GK codex is mostly good. Certain things like the Castellan Crowe safeguarding a horribly powerful Daemon sword because he is the only one 'pure' enough to resist temptation is one of my favourite character descriptions in 40k. He should have a short story about him, or feature in a BL book in the future. It would be interesting to see more character development, maybe he's not completely immune to it's temptations, it constantly whispers to him, he's deeply affected by its presence, sometimes he nearly loses faith but his duty keeps him going. It would be nice to see a story that reveals that SMs and GKs are still human deep down, no amount of phsyco-surgeries and mental conditioning for a life of constant war can take out the human in them. I'm completely off track.

Anyway, that's just an example of fluff I think is very good. It's fairly obvious that there are two particular parts that stand out. Draigo is interesting because he has another dimension to the character. You can't have debate without personal opinion, and in my opinion Draigo has this ideal that he is this highly powerful, highly incorruptible, highly motivated hero, but is trapped in the Warp. He shouldn't be trapped in the Warp and still be gloriously powerful and unaffected by his experience. To have this ideal, he should be constantly battling for sheer survival. He should be half crazed but ultimately resolute in the knowledge that he is still a GK. The whole description of him just reeks of someone whose just carried away with writing. As a professional writer I'd have thought you'd try to reign yourself in and try to keep it in context and at least believable within the world your describing. Some of the stuff is just so OTT, I wont go into specifics because they've been retold enough.

The Blood Tide story is forgiveable. It's not OTT and with the current image of the GK its fits well. Facts have been misread quite a lot, for example, the codex says 'The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons.' Not once is it said that they 'bathe' in the blood of the SoB. IMHO there's a big difference between bathing and anointing.

There are things that have been left to speculation, which is something that's missing in recent codex updates and new fluff. I really don't want to find out what the Terminus Decree is just yet, or whatever it is that's locked up beneath Mount Anarch. I don't have any other examples of his work, but he appears quite regularly in some of the WD issues I have, and I don't get new ones that frequently. His snipets are well worded and insightful and he seems to genuinely enjoy being a part of the Hobby. From what I've heard, he usually writes better rules than some other design team members, if they are at some points a bit OTT and over powered, although I'll refrain from forming opinions right now.

Manchu, whilst you did maybe say something without thinking about how some people would take it, I hardly think that it's that offensive. People have seen something mildly out of order and immediately think its like a person insult and blow it out of proportion.

I'm having a great time collecting the new GKs. The models are fantastic, (bar the Dreadknight but it's not terribad) and are great fun to model and customize. It's great that you can get so much variety and unit choices from only a single box, although you have to shell out stupid amounts of money for only five miniatures, but that's another gripe for another thread.

I think that's a very well thought and nuanced opinion from someone who obviously actually read the codex iproxtaco.

Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.

I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.

I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?

Cheesecat wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.

I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.

I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?

Because if you were to look at any culture, at any point in human history:
Blood has had arcane properties of a sort.
Look at the myths of vampires that started up from Bram Stoker. They suck blood.
Why?
Because the blood extends their life through unnatural means.
Look at the sacrificial lambs that the Greeks used when communing with their gods.
What was the point of that?
The blood was a way to fuel the rite, the act was designed to please the higher deities and draw their attentions.

Hell, look at Christianity. The 'Blood'(wine now) and 'Body of Christ' is part of an elaborate ritual that signifies you've accepted to take a part of the redeeming savior into your body.

And you're still missing the key part, or you're intentionally trying to skew things so you can say that it's a giant Chaos ritual.
They didn't just use any old 'blood' as a 'liquid' for the mix.

The blood had to come from a 'pure' individual who retained 'innocence'.

This could mean anything from that it required a virgin to whatever else, but those two particular parts make for some very big differences from Chaos rituals which tend to involve massive quantities of death(not 'blood', death) to weaken the boundaries between real-space and the Warp enough for their ritual to work.

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Cheesecat: I have stressed throughout that the point of the story is that the Warp is really terrible, even when good guys attempt to use it. There's no "white magic" in 40k. The best the GK can do is invert the purposes of the Ruinous Powers, to turn the blood rituals of the daemons inside out: in this case, blood is not a power for corruption but rather for purity against corruption.

I'm really glad, by the way, that this thread has attracted the exact types of posts that I began by complaining about. Yes, I should not have been so provocative. But now no one can accuse me of simply making this up.

I just can't see under any circumstance why holy oils would need to be with mixed blood in order to protect yourself for Blood Tide (unless it's a chaos ritual), couldn't they have used another liquid?

Because if you were to look at any culture, at any point in human history:
Blood has had arcane properties of a sort.
Look at the myths of vampires that started up from Bram Stoker. They suck blood.
Why?
Because the blood extends their life through unnatural means.
Look at the sacrificial lambs that the Greeks used when communing with their gods.
What was the point of that?
The blood was a way to fuel the rite, the act was designed to please the higher deities and draw their attentions.

Hell, look at Christianity. The 'Blood'(wine now) and 'Body of Christ' is part of an elaborate ritual that signifies you've accepted to take a part of the redeeming savior into your body.

And you're still missing the key part, or you're intentionally trying to skew things so you can say that it's a giant Chaos ritual.
They didn't just use any old 'blood' as a 'liquid' for the mix.

The blood had to come from a 'pure' individual who retained 'innocence'.

This could mean anything from that it required a virgin to whatever else, but those two particular parts make for some very big differences from Chaos rituals which tend to involve massive quantities of death(not 'blood', death) to weaken the boundaries between real-space and the Warp enough for their ritual to work.

Unless SOB blood is more poisonous, acidic, etc in property I fail to see how it would be any different from any other human.

What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Lets not forget that this is the Imperium we're talking about. They're the epitome of pragmatic/ruthless.

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?

'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.

Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?

'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.

Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Well most of the the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is

the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?

'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.

Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Well all the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.

There's no such thing as "pure magic" in 40k. It's all related to psychic powers or acts of faith.

Once again, however, you're putting way too freaking much emphasis on the fact that blood is used.


Blood being involved doesn't mean it's evil. Blood is a component in the ritual, and it's a specific kind of blood('the blood of a pure-hearted innocent') used to augment and disperse the Bloodtide's effects.

However:
In the Eisenhorn novels, there's mention of wards to bind and subdue daemons 'being able to be daubed in blood, if time is a factor'. It doesn't mean that the daemon is appeased, in fact, it angers the daemon if the blood of an innocent or a pure-hearted individual is used.

Purity and innocence are emotional aspects that likely would have an impact in the Warp, which means that if they do--they would have a negative impact upon daemons formed from the stuff of the opposing emotions(hate, anger, greed, avarice, etc).

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What would poison or acid have to do with purity and innocence?

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Really? You're going to try playing the 'logical science' card on a situation with Daemons from a dimension created and fueled entirely by emotion?

'Purity' is not referring to the grade of the blood. It's referring to a quality of the individual who the blood belonged to.
Same as 'innocence'.

Since the Grey Knights were, in fact, performing a faith-based ritual it's safe to assume that the two qualities were used in a more arcane sense rather than a scientific one.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Well all the "pure" magic in 40k is usually portrayed though artifacts, amour, weapons, oils, anointment, religious sites, buildings, seals, symbols, mental faith and certain psychic powers. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've heard of imperials trying to use blood rituals, to create "pure" magic when in past texts "holiness" was determined by the items of the individual or his/her loyalty to the emperor.

There's no such thing as "pure magic" in 40k. It's all related to psychic powers or acts of faith.

Once again, however, you're putting way too freaking much emphasis on the fact that blood is used.

3 points:

1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.
2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.
3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.

Cheesecat wrote:
3 points:

1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.

And even then, the most "pure" psyker abilities still use the powers of the Warp. There's not some magical good Warp filled with fluffy unicorns powering all the Good Guy Psychics and a magical bad Warp filled with spiky bunnies farting fire that powers all the Mean Psychics Who Are Jerks And Kicked Your Dog.

The Warp is a place that reflects the mortal realm. It's an emotional amalgam of both good and bad, the only difference is that the 'bad' has effectively come to rule.

2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.

Because, once again, they're not using just blood to anoint their weapons.
And actually, there's been mention of weapons being anointed using the blood of saints and other 'pious individuals'.
So no, there's been times "when Imperials perform rituals using blood".

3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.

Considering that your point of view is flawed to begin with and all you're really wanting to do is complain about the fact that the word 'blood' is used, there's been no real "debate" and "no ability to come to a common ground".
You're focusing on the word 'blood' and not the part about 'blood of an innocent' being mixed with 'sacred unguents and oils' and the end result being used to further augment their already inherent protections.

Kanluwen wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:
3 points:

1) That's what I meant when I say "pure" magic sorry for the confusion, more just bad wording on my part.

And even then, the most "pure" psyker abilities still use the powers of the Warp. There's not some magical good Warp filled with fluffy unicorns powering all the Good Guy Psychics and a magical bad Warp filled with spiky bunnies farting fire that powers all the Mean Psychics Who Are Jerks And Kicked Your Dog.

The Warp is a place that reflects the mortal realm. It's an emotional amalgam of both good and bad, the only difference is that the 'bad' has effectively come to rule.

2) That's my point I hate the fact that the Grey Knights are using blood to anoint their weapons, because whenever imperials perform rituals there's a distinct lack of blood being used and I don't see why grey knights would be the exception.

Because, once again, they're not using just blood to anoint their weapons.
And actually, there's been mention of weapons being anointed using the blood of saints and other 'pious individuals'.
So no, there's been times "when Imperials perform rituals using blood".

3) I think were too different on our view points to really come to common ground, although I did enjoy debating.

Considering that your point of view is flawed to begin with and all you're really wanting to do is complain about the fact that the word 'blood' is used, there's been no real "debate" and "no ability to come to a common ground".
You're focusing on the word 'blood' and not the part about 'blood of an innocent' being mixed with 'sacred unguents and oils' and the end result being used to further augment their already inherent protections.

Wouldn't killing a blood of a innocent make your actions worse not better and just because you're mixing blood with oil and anointment doesn't stop it from being a blood ritual. Also I never said that Grey Knights and Daemons don't use the same power source when using rituals it just how they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one and other.

Cheesecat wrote:
Wouldn't killing a blood of a innocent make your actions worse not better

How do you 'kill a blood of a innocent'?
Or are you meaning 'Wouldn't killing an innocent make your actions worse, not better'?
In that case: Who knows.
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.

If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.

and just because you're mixing blood with oil and anointment doesn't stop it from being a blood ritual. Also I never said that Grey Knights and Daemons don't use the same power source when using rituals it just how they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one another.

That's the first half-sensible thing you've said in your entire history posting in this thread.

"How they use/harness that energy has always been significantly different from one another".

In every culture, the world over intent matters.

The Grey Knights didn't use the blood of the Sisters, taken violently and tainted by that act, so that they could use it in some ritual to grant themselves power.
They very likely had it granted to them by the Sisters themselves. That blood was then used as a component within a ritual to create a talisman of purity(actual Codex wording right there) that further warded the Grey Knights.

The blood was not given willingly. "Turning their blades upon the sisters" is the wording and it doesn't have a peaceful connotation. The entire point of that section of the codex is to illustrate who the GKs can be a plausible opponent for any faction - not just daemons.

All in all, I enjoyed most of the GK fluff. I will admit, I took a double-take on the Bloodtide incident, and still find it a bit inexplicable, even in the face of explanation and discussion, but I didn't feel that it ruined the book, warranted the firing of the writer, etc. It was just a bit of fluff that failed to dovetail with my own preconceived impressions of the 40k setting- and let's all remember, it's a fictional setting that we are each viewing through our own lens, defined by our personalities and expectations and even the order in which we've been introduced to the setting- I don't think there's a great deal of merit in arguing about what the 'real' GK would have done as there are no 'real' GK and, at the end of the day, Mat Ward decides what the GK do, and we must accept, adapt or ignore what GW publishes, as we see fit. So while it might not be what I'd expected to read, it is something that I can understand and integrate into my own view of the 40k world. As far as the killing of the Sisters goes, I imagine that the act of sacrificial slaughter was important in the preparation of the oils, the martyrdom of the Sisters a vital element in the protection of the GK. Unexpected, but I get it.





Really, with the exception of Draigo, I found the book to be an enjoyable read and thought it really touched on the 'grimdark' aspects of the universe nicely. I particularly enjoyed the (non-Draigo) special characters, as they were all flawed and tragic individuals doomed to fail but driven to fight to the last breath nonetheless.

+ Mordrak, driven to the brink of madness by the warp-ghost of his fallen brothers, who will never know peace until Huron Blackheart is made accountable for his betrayal.

+ Crowe, tasked with guarding a relic daemon sword but never using it, knowing that despite his paragon status within the Grey Knights, even he might not be able to resist the corruption of the activated sword. The fact that sooner or later, the sword is going to kill Crowe, or he's going to be killed by some daemon or chaos-worshipper who's after the sword, the same fate that has invariably befallen all the other bearers, really stands out to me as what the GK are all about: holding the forces of pure Chaos at bay, no matter the cost.

+ Stern, cursed with the attentions of a powerful and insidious chaos daemon, whose constant meddling has come to define Stern's life. Is Stern actually making a difference and getting closer to defeating his nemesis, or is he completely and utterly outclassed by a superior intellect, doomed to waste his life- and the lives of his men- chasing a foe he can never hope to truly defeat?




All that being said, I did find the entire section on Draigo to be a nothing short of Mary-Sueism at it's worst. He strikes up rivalries with Greater Daemons (sorry, Stern, you've been one-upped!), humiliates Daemon Prince Primarchs, serves as a one-man-army wish fulfillment vehicle, trashes the domains of Chaos Gods without any fear of retaliation, destroys legions of daemons and entire cities with his S5 AP- template psychic power, annihilates so many greater daemons that the next Chaos Daemons codex is going to have to register them on the endangered species list, is described as legendary/of legend multiple times in the same entry, is lost in the warp except when he's not, and, right from the entry for this last one, committed thousands and thousands of other such acts (though he hasn't killed any avatars... yet). I personally consider Draigo's entry to be one of the lowpoints of the codexes I've read (4e and 5e only), and largely reminiscent of the fanfic my college roommate used to write about his stupid D&D ranger. I've always viewed Chaos as all-powerful, ancient, unknowable, evil, and lovecraftian, and thus I have a lot of trouble rationalizing that what I read in that blurb exists in the same universe where even Primarchs were deceived, corrupted, or outright destroyed by Chaos and it's agents. Accept, adapt or ignore- I won't lose any sleep over it.





I found the rest of the book to be quite well done. I was never a big GK fan and this book didn't change that in the end, but I gained an appreciation for who they are and what they do. The tragic hero vibe might have been a bit hamfisted and overdone, but 40k is a galaxy where everything is a bit hamfisted and overdone, and I'd expected no less. Finally, I was pleased with the book's overall theme of the Gray Knights being valiant, but ultimately doomed, especially since I'd felt that the last few codexes released really moved away from the whole 'it's grimdark and we're all going to die' that helps define the 40k setting.

...If they needed the blood... Why murder for it? In what way would that make the situation better? If it was being mixed with oils and unguents anyway, surely asking the Sisters to cut their palms and give some of their blood would have been more peaceful, more sensible, more un-evil, and economical? I refuse to believe that murdering the Sisters was the only solution to the problem. This could be because Marines tend to be very single-minded in the pursuit of their goals, but I'd have thought that GK were a bit smarter than that, seeing as Sisters when they haven't been murdered would be a great asset to the GK, as their faith is obviously pretty darn strong if they were all exposed, some turned and some didn't.

We don't know if that was the only solution to that situation we only know it's the one the GKs choose.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:We don't know if that was the only solution to that situation we only know it's the one the GKs choose.

Then... I don't... How...

I'm not gonna question the book any more, it's got too many ridiculous things in for me. If others like it, that's their opinion and I understand that, and I can understand why this particular incident occured, but even in the grim darkness of the future, there has to be more sensible codexes