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Sensible?! SENSIBLE?! 40k is not the universe for you then my friend.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Sensible?! SENSIBLE?! 40k is not the universe for you then my friend.

Sensible within the realms of OTT science-fiction, then. When watching Aliens:

A realm made of emotion? OK, that's cool and I can get my head round it. The bad emotions make Daemons? OK, makes sense. A Primarch, one of the 22 most powerful human beings to have lived, turns to Chaos? Sure, why not. A chapter master new to command carves his name on one of these Daemon Primarchs' heart? ...No. Just no.

Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.

If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.

It was forced.
But also pointless as their librarians were able to keep the bloodtide away.

Kanluwen wrote:that further warded the Grey Knights.

Didnt you WIN? ... maybe won insight into the shortcomings of a certain author when he has to get his point across to the fanbase.

Order of events:
- broken containment field > fine
- corrupt local priests > fine
- place sisters, to be sacrificed later, there > valid critics of the girls fate to be slain so often
- sent GK > fine
- perform ritual, but go for aztec style not greek > fail. So who was called upon to protect? Wasn't the Emperor.
- push back the tide with librarians > fine. Why did they need the blood again?
- kill the demon > fine. Lost 1 GK but kicked his ass thoroughly.

It would gain acceptance if it didn't read like a chaos ritual at a first glance. But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.

The "spiritual liege incident " cannot be forgiven.
The flying Land Raiders were just ignorance to the full entry.
The Necron-bromance also missed the point of the rise of the necrons. Higher ups awaken and add more variety to decisions than "dumb" autodefenses.

What we all have to admit is that the Bloodtide is one of the only stories in the Codex that doesn't have a lot of specifics, and its the one that needs it them the most.

Firstly what were the actual effects of the Bloodtide? Were they physical or spiritual or both? It says 'corrupting everything and everyone it touches'. One fact we know is that corruption occurs on contact with the Tide. Some SoB are able to resist it in some form.

Secondly, were the remaining SoB mercilessly killed by the GKs or did they willingly give themselves up to be used in this ritual? the natures of both parties would point to either of the above mentioned possibilities.

Thirdly, why did the GK, who are already described as highly incorruptible, need another layer of protection against this particular form of Chaos?

I don't have a problem with the story but I can see where others might. In my opinion it's entirely in keeping with the GK's current image. They will sacrifice any number and any member of the IoM to complete their goal to defeat Daemonic incursions. They use 'sorcery' in a kind of fight fire with fire way, turning the weapon of the enemy against them. They are the only ones able to do it without falling to corruption.

A lot of points are being bounced back and forth here. Some good points, well made and some, well, they remind me of my days on Warseer. The main thrust of the defence for Ward's writing seems to me to be that it is in keeping with the nature and theme of the 40K universe. Now, theme is all down to interpretation. The key themes one might pick up from a piece of writing differ with the individual. Certain people will get one thing out of it, others will get another. The very definition of subjectivity. So if the majority of people find Ward's writing to be out of key with the themes of the universe as they understand it, wouldn't that imply that he was off the mark somehow?

Before anyone makes it, please don't go for the 'people are dumb' defence. It's too easy.

Also, I was promised calming cake. Where's the cake? What a rip off.

if the majority of people find Ward's writing to be out of key with the themes of the universe as they understand it, wouldn't that imply that he was off the mark somehow?

Well I suppose it depends on whether you think that fiction should be subject to some kind of democratic accountability. I'd say GW and their agents create the facts and those who care sufficiently must either reconcile old facts with new ones somehow, or accept that the canon is flawed (but that its creators are happy with that), or that some aspects of the canon are now outdated.

But substitute 'most' for 'a reasonable proportion', because we don't know which side is in the majority.

I don't think that actually the sister's episode is irreconcilable with what's gone before. What people are objecting to, it seems, is not even that the GK slaughter the lovely space nuns in their power-bondage corsets, but that:

1 - the blood is then used as part of a ritual
2 - some of the space nuns are described as having been corrupted when their codex says only one has fallen to chaos ever.

2 is easily answered because corruption need not be a mental failing (a giving way to temptation), instead the blood tide may welll have consumed their spirit and corrupted the remaining flesh, turning the mutated shells (still in those kinky corsets of course) into tools for its own purposes.

1 I think has been answered above. We have to accept that this isn't a 'blood for the blood god' mass sacrifice. It is a typical GK extermination, and then use of the sisters' blood for the ritual.

Okay, is the ritual sensible? No, but this is 40K. Does it contradict previous canon? Not really. It may be a one-off event, but lack of precedence does not actually mean canon has been violated.

That brings me back to thinking that it's just the fact that some people don't like it. Which is their perogative, but it doesn't make Ward wrong.

1 - the blood is then used as part of a ritual
2 - some of the space nuns are described as having been corrupted when their codex says only one has fallen to chaos ever.

1- It fits he image of the GK's 'fighting fire with fire'. Their ritual involves 'holy' blood, taken from pure and innocent servants of the Imperium.
2 - Only one SoB has willingly turned to Chaos. There may be countless SoB who have been forcibly corrupted, they are only relying on their fortitude of mind to protect them. A thoroughly human one at that.

I use the word 'most' mainly because of two reasons.

1) The majority of people on forums seem opposed to it.

2) Independantly of that, in the circle of friends I game with we found certain parts of Ward's writing to be jarring and OTT even for 40K. I should mention that we found the most part of his fluff fine, though. We're not knee-jerk Ward-haters, we just found some bits to bit out of keeping with the feel of the universe.

I do think that fiction should be subject to the criticism of its audience. Who else will criticise? I know this isn't exactly what you're saying, but to blithely accept anything that is written without registering any emotional reaction seems robotic, not to mention beside the point of the thing.

Canon-violation would more be that we've gone from 'only one sister has ever fallen' to a whole bunch of sisters falling at once. You can play the old progpaganda card, but I don't buy that. The way the fluff is written is presented as fact. That was the only problem I had with the blood-tide section, not the sacrifice. I didn't like seeing members of my chosen faction sacrificed by their ostensible allies, but hey, this is the Grey Knights. They do what they please. That bit never bugged me, canon-wise.

Also, why do people think that sisters' power armour is kinky? Sure, it emulates the female form, but no more that Marines' armour emulates the male, with their overemphasised broad shoulders, pectoral muscle plates, and prominent codpieces. I call projecting on that.

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
In terms of most arcane rituals if you look back through old texts, however, the context matters.
If the blood is offered up, willingly, by the innocent: it's 'untainted' by the act of spilling the blood. It's a pure thing, a thing of untold power that grants the bearer a measure of protection and immortality.

If it's taken by force, it's tainted and corrupts the person who spills it or curses them or any number of Very Bad Things.

It was forced.
But also pointless as their librarians were able to keep the bloodtide away.

Sorry, did you get the Codex: Grey Knights Extended Edition?
Because it says nothing about whether or not it was 'forced' or not.

Kanluwen wrote:that further warded the Grey Knights.

Didnt you WIN? ... maybe won insight into the shortcomings of a certain author when he has to get his point across to the fanbase.

Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?
You're aware that it's a term that means 'to defend', right?
Synonyms that could have been used are 'shielded', like the book used.

Order of events:
- broken containment field > fine
- corrupt local priests > fine
- place sisters, to be sacrificed later, there > valid critics of the girls fate to be slain so often
- sent GK > fine
- perform ritual, but go for aztec style not greek > fail. So who was called upon to protect? Wasn't the Emperor.
- push back the tide with librarians > fine. Why did they need the blood again?
- kill the demon > fine. Lost 1 GK but kicked his ass thoroughly.

It would gain acceptance if it didn't read like a chaos ritual at a first glance. But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.

'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.

It says 'some sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide'. There's to me no implication there that they are spiritually tempted to chaos and join (which I think 'fallen' does imply), rather that they are physically overwhelmed, their bodies corrupted, their spirit vanquished. I think that's a reasonable reading. Reading it that way avoids the canon violation, so why not just go with that? If there are two or more ways of interpreting something and one of them breaks canon and the other(s) do not, I think it's sensible to go with the latter.

I don't actually think much of Ward's writing (it's okay in its way, I suppose) but it's not, for me, any more terrible than most GW fiction.

Now about the 'talisman of purity'. Many of the space nuns (who are very kinky, you just have to look at their 'holier than though' artwork to realise they must indulge in unspeakable vice behind closed doors...) were not corrupted, and so - perhaps - had resisted the physical corruption of the bloodtide. The GK presumably needed that. Hence the use of the blood. Very practical, given the nuns had to die anyway. I agree, the thing's a wee bit weak as an idea, but it does say 'so shielded the grey knights were able to stride through the goreflood uncorrupted'. So it was necessary.

That does leave a wee problem. How is it some of our nuns were uncorrupted by the tide and yet others succumbed?

Well supopose the bloodtide does actually attack one's 'spirit'. If one's spirit is overcome (not 'tempted', but vanquished), then one's body is corrupted as one's soul is lost (not given up freely but destroyed or captured). For some reason ('innocence'?) some nuns are able to resist this better than anyone else. Faith, perhaps, has something to do with it.

Saying "Marines are supposed to be demi-gods" is all well and good... but the idea of one CARVING A NAME onto a Daemon-Primarch is just unfathomable, that should be a one-sided fight if there ever was one.

Artemo wrote:It says 'some sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide'. There's to me no implication there that they are spiritually tempted to chaos and join (which I think 'fallen' does imply), rather that they are physically overwhelmed, their bodies corrupted, their spirit vanquished. I think that's a reasonable reading. Reading it that way avoids the canon violation, so why not just go with that? If there are two or more ways of interpreting something and one of them breaks canon and the other(s) do not, I think it's sensible to go with the latter.

You know what? That makes sense. I'm going to go with that, in a turned-into-Chaos-spawn kind of way. Still not a fan of the Draigo fluff or the robot babygrow though. And I never will be.

I dislike the Draigo stuff too. But I don't think it violates canon exactly, it just seems over the top.

Oh, absolutely. I don't have a problem with it canon wise, I just think it's rubbish.

Yes, quite.

I am happy that there is at least a degree of consensus regarding Draigo.

Can we hang Matt Ward yet? If only for the BA codex?

And the Stormraven which I am certain he designed?

And the Fukushima disaster?

And the absence of world peace?

If Ward designed the Stormraven, then as far as I'm concerened, all his background writing sins are forgiven.

To be honest though, I don't really see his writing overall to be any better or worse than the mass of GW fiction. The Draigo stuff is especially egregious, but I think that's maybe more a consequence of lack of editorial control ('Matt, old boy, just tone that down a bit, would you? Thanks) on GW's part. Many writers tend to get carried away when not restrained by editors. GW obviously ddon't put a high premium on having quality writing in their background fiction and won't even proof-read the rules (way more important) thoroughly. So Ward cannot take sole blame really.

I actually didnt have a problem with the codex fluff or rules wise, I thought it was actually well written for Mr. Ward and im a huge critic of his work.

EXCEPT: the abomination that is Draigo fluff..... just that whole entry makes me gag. His rules arent that scary but the fact that he just frolics around HELL pwning everyone and doing whatever he wants and carving his name into primarchs is possibly the most immature piece of 40k fluff written next to SM riding wolves. Dumb beyond words and ill just pretend it was never written. None of the chaos gods dont just look at this guy and turn him into spawn or red apple sauce or something? What makes him immune to WARP GODS!? The emperor himself could even go crusading around the warp in his prime but this yahoo is just the end all to beat all imperial fanboy beatoff material!?.... grrrrr ok im done.

Like I said good codex... except that... thing

Mebe Chaos Gods just can't touch Grey Knights? I honestly don't know... being new with 5th and all.

But err, perhaps holy oils and inscriptions really *do* beat deities ;P

Laughing God wrote:I actually didnt have a problem with the codex fluff or rules wise, I thought it was actually well written for Mr. Ward and im a huge critic of his work.

EXCEPT: the abomination that is Draigo fluff..... just that whole entry makes me gag. His rules arent that scary but the fact that he just frolics around HELL pwning everyone and doing whatever he wants and carving his name into primarchs is possibly the most immature piece of 40k fluff written next to SM riding wolves. Dumb beyond words and ill just pretend it was never written. None of the chaos gods dont just look at this guy and turn him into spawn or red apple sauce or something? What makes him immune to WARP GODS!? The emperor himself could even go crusading around the warp in his prime but this yahoo is just the end all to beat all imperial fanboy beatoff material!?.... grrrrr ok im done.

Like I said good codex... except that... thing

And yet, for every 'victory' that Draigo has the Ruinous Powers have repaired the damage in the blink of an eye.
He's the embodiment of Sisyphus, pushing his stone up that hill only to have it roll back down as he reaches the top.

Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry, did you get the Codex: Grey Knights Extended Edition?
Because it says nothing about whether or not it was 'forced' or not.

To turn your blades on fellow Imperial servants isn't forcing but asking nicely?

BTW: Ours is automatically an extended edition.

Mine has at page 5 :

Kanluwen wrote:
Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?

Shall I ?

To cite myself:

But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.

Kanluwen wrote:
'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.

Still deserves the suggestion of improvement when lack of details is the issue of a piece of background.
From nearly hiding the Iron Hands in his first codex to missing details in his third is a start.
Maybe I didn't write this line quoted above as clear as possible. But somehow I also have a feeling you're trying to evade the point of a story
lacking details can lead to a bad first impression and those first ones stick.

Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?

In English, "turn their blades on" does not necessarily imply that the SoB resisted the GK. No amount of reading into the story is going to get us to the point of certainty about whether the sacrifice was willing or not. It's just not in there.

On the one hand, the Sisters are totally prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice against the enemies of the Emperor. It's also likely they would obey someone with the authority of the Inquisition.

On the other hand, they're none too fond of warp rituals and may not even have known precisely who the GK were.

We just don't know.

But that's beside the point. Either way it's grimdark.

@htj: You're right about analyzing themes being a matter of subjective interpretation. But "subjective interpretation" does not mean that you can attribute anything to the material. For example, no one can say "a core theme of the GK is that they are Puritans." Nor can one say "a core theme of the GK is that they only use psychic powers when they absolutely have to."

These things may suit what a particular individual thinks of the GK but that particular individual's thoughts have nothing to do with the GK that GW publishes about. There is simply no GW-published material to support those notions. Now if a person says "to me, GK are puritans" that's fine -- but they're only actually talking about their own private fantasy world, not about the wider world of 40k. Thing is, no one really cares about their private vision of 40k in a discussion like this. Go to the texts that are available to everyone.

The texts do support certain themes, such as the ones that I've highlighted in my OP. You can usually tell when a person is talking about the actual GK rather than their private take on the GK because they produce supporting citations from the GW-published text instead of saying things like "well, I can't be bothered to look at the books, but the way I think of it is . . ." "Subjective" doesn't mean random, unprovable, unsupported, without evidence, etc.

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Really? You underlined 'warded' and think you're clever?

Shall I ?

To cite myself:

But details always get lost if fluff is recited from early peeks at codices and thus IMO M.W needs to improve.

And you're missing my point. When I used the word "warded" I was not making some kind of stupid immature joke about Mat Ward having written the Codex, which is what you seem to have been thinking when underlining it.

"Warded" is a term that means "protected".
It has absolutely nothing to do with the author of the codex, and has everything to do with the impression I received from reading the story.

Kanluwen wrote:
'Details get lost' when they're not fully there to begin with. We do not have the remainder of the details, just a general overview for the events.

Still deserves the suggestion of improvement when lack of details is the issue of a piece of background.
From nearly hiding the Iron Hands in his first codex to missing details in his third is a start.

The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.

Maybe I didn't write this line quoted above as clear as possible. But somehow I also have a feeling you're trying to evade the point of a story
lacking details can lead to a bad first impression and those first ones stick.

And maybe you're missing the point that it has nothing to do with the author and everything to do with the actions of the Grey Knights. They used the ritual to create themselves a talismanic ward, allowing them to proceed through the Bloodtide and the goreflood accompanying it.

Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?

It wouldn't matter if it was bloody spelled out in black and white people would still cry about it because it doesn't fit their interpretation of the background and that specific army.
Look at the Tau threads recently as an example.
We've got stuff printed within the Deathwatch RPG talking about forced sterilizations, people being abducted in the middle of the night from their homes to be subjected to genetic experiments and fed to Kroot, we've got the Taros campaign talking about how Manta Destroyers had to be brought in to kill Warhound Titans--and people still have the gall to say that the Tau are a major military threat to the Imperium.

"turn their blades on" does not necessarily imply that the SoB resisted the GK.

True. But I'd say that's by far the most likely of the interpretations. Standard GK procedure is to exterminate witnesses, I believe. So they'd slaughter the nuns anyway. Given that's the case, why would they waste time asking for consent? Of course those that wish to believe the lovely nuns bared their breasts to the knives willingly (um, if that's the phrase I want...), are at liberty to do so as it's not specifically ruled out, as you rightly say. I do feel the implication's clear in the context though.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.

Their IA article wasn't smaller than anyone elses. They kept the contqual story, but cannot be bothered to show more than a single painted model in a codex? NO SC? Nearly invisible as a First founding Legion if the reader doesn't pay tons of attention?
And thats " never been a big player!" in your book?
Excuse moi, but thats ignorance not lack of background to put in.

Seems BL moves off the UM-centric sight on Space marines and thus the IH at least may get a chance.

Kanluwen wrote:
And maybe you're missing the point that it has nothing to do with the author and everything to do with the actions of the Grey Knights. They used the ritual to create themselves a talismanic ward, allowing them to proceed through the Bloodtide and the goreflood accompanying it.

So the author has nothing to do with his own written text? Responsibility is now blamed on the fictional GK?
Sorry, the theme is: uncorruptible and usage of sanctified artifacts, not: high resilience and sorcery.

There is exactly zero examples of sorcery or usage of tainted wargear without precautions by GK in this codex.
The bloodtide was driven back, by GK psykers. Without using anything of the collected blood. The story contributes only a
"take no risk to your own safety" approach, not a "mission objective is primary above all else" as it should.

Are 30% of a DIN A4 page in small font not enough to write things unambigious?

It wouldn't matter if it was bloody spelled out in black and white people would still cry about it because it doesn't fit their interpretation of the background and that specific army.

1hadhq.

Reread my freaking post.

When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.

Without using anything of the collected blood.

It says quite specifically that it allowed them to walk through the 'goreflood' unharmed. So it was in fact necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should though add that, contrary to my earlier assumption that the bloodtide might destroy the spirit and corrupt the flesh, the start of the chapter clearly says that the corruption is one of turning the virtuous to chaos. Now if one equates that with 'falling', then Ward has contradicted the space nun codex that says only one has ever fallen (or so I read above, I don't have that codex). It could be argued though that corruption of that sort by the goretide is involuntary, unlike other forms of 'turning', so it might be arguable that Ward hasn't contradicted canon there. The alternative is that the space nun codex ibackground must now be considered out of date. It might be interesting to see what their new codex (if they get one) says.

Doesn't the codex somewhere specifically state Grey Knights are immune to corruption?

I can't remember where, I think it was about the Aegis and it said something like:

"A Grey Knight's psychic presence is is anathema to the creatures of the warp, utterly unpalatable to a daemon's dark appetites and thus entirely immune from corruption."

And it further goes on to say that they're immune to corruption in the sense that they cannot be corrupted and turned to Chaos.

They're not, however, immune to 'corruption' in terms of Daemonic forces tearing up their physical form.

Thanks for making this thread Manchu - your original post sums up my thoughts perfectly.

When the original 'fire Mat Ward!' posters began making their examples I didn't understand what they were talking about. The examples they presented as outrageous seemed perfectly in line with Grey Knights, and if anything fit better into the 40K background. Having recently gotten myself a copy (I don't play them, but know thy enemy!) I'm nothing less than satisfied with it. Sure, Mat is no Phil Kelly, but I don't play Blood Angels either.