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Kanluwen wrote:1hadhq.

Reread my freaking post.

When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.

Why should the reasonable poster in this thread as per Manchu, create a freaking post?
Maybe calm down a bit? I didn't claim you used the word " warded" to disrespect Mr Ward.

Kanluwen wrote:And it further goes on to say that they're immune to corruption in the sense that they cannot be corrupted and turned to Chaos.

They're not, however, immune to 'corruption' in terms of Daemonic forces tearing up their physical form.

So attacks in the material realm now count as "corruption" ?
Fascinating attempt to circumvent the problem.

Can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind?

Maybe the GK defenses against corruption encompass the whole GK so you have to overcome them first to corrupt the 'flesh'...
Maybe this goes for their machines too? Wouldn't make sense to field that dreaded knight if it turned against its pilot.

Second issue is where the protection comes from.

- the anathema to the demonic is the Emperor
- the GK abilities are gifts from the Emperor
- to bane demons and close warpgates you call upon the Emperor

Somehow, rituals with blood don't seem to fit into a request of protection to the Emperor.
So either you call upon a warp entitiy with this ritual, and hope to stay uncorrupted because you need protection against corruption but
as uncorruptible are not at risk, which begs the question why you request protection at all. Chaotic isn't it?

1hadhq wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:1hadhq.

Reread my freaking post.

When I used the term "warded" it had exactly NOTHING to do with the author of the book. It is a term that has been in use for centuries to describe a defense, and mostly in terms of arcane defenses.

Why should the reasonable poster in this thread as per Manchu, create a freaking post?
Maybe calm down a bit? I didn't claim you used the word " warded" to disrespect Mr Ward.

Then what the hell was your point in underlining it, and then begin ranting about Ward's writing abilities?

And I love how it always goes to someone trying to tell someone else to "calm down".
Do you really think I would get worked up into a tizzy by your post? At best it made me question your grasp of the English language, and at worst it made me assume that you're one of those people who think that the Nemesis 'Ward' Staff was named for the author.

Kanluwen wrote:And it further goes on to say that they're immune to corruption in the sense that they cannot be corrupted and turned to Chaos.

They're not, however, immune to 'corruption' in terms of Daemonic forces tearing up their physical form.

So attacks in the material realm now count as "corruption" ?

So psykers attacking in the material realm with Nurgle gifted plagues are physical attacks that don't corrupt?

Fascinating attempt to circumvent the problem.

What "problem"? The story is intentionally vague. The whole point of it is to elevate the deeds of the Grey Knight to a mythical status and to show the lengths they'll go to in order to fulfill their tasks.

Can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind?

What does the mind have to do with anything in this case?
We're talking about the soul and body here. The mind is a third, non-involved, factor.
As for "can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind"...uh yes, you quite clearly can.
Does someone who suffers from diabetes go insane when his insulin levels are low?
Does someone who loses the use of their limbs through a spinal injury start seriously thinking he's a wizard and declaring a jihad of Elves against the medical community for failing to save his immortal soul?

Maybe the GK defenses against corruption encompass the whole GK so you have to overcome them first to corrupt the 'flesh'...

Maybe this goes for their machines too? Wouldn't make sense to field that dreaded knight if it turned against its pilot.

We've known for a long time that Imperial Machines have their own distinct 'personality'. Land Raiders have been known to detonate rather than be captured by the forces of traitor Astartes, etc.
The Dreadknight, carrying a Mind-Impulse Unit much like a Titan, would have its own distinct personality...that is blended and shaped by the pilot.

Second issue is where the protection comes from.

- the anathema to the demonic is the Emperor

Actually, no. It's pure faith. We saw that with Euphrati Keeler during the outset of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor wasn't a 'Divine Being' like he is now, and simply by making the sign of the aquila and demanding a daemon to begone--she banished one.

- the GK abilities are gifts from the Emperor

Says who? They're recruited from psykers to begin with. The only thing that is 'gifted from the Emperor' is done during the Soul-Binding ritual which ensures that they gain a measure of the Emperor's power.

- to bane demons and close warpgates you call upon the Emperor

To 'banish Daemons', you need their true name. The Emperor doesn't need to be mentioned.
Closing Warpgates requires lengthy rituals involving various materials and --surprise surprise-- a sacrifice of some kind.

Somehow, rituals with blood don't seem to fit into a request of protection to the Emperor.

Who says it was a request of protection to the Emperor? Or to anyone?

So either you call upon a warp entity with this ritual, and hope to stay uncorrupted because you need protection against corruption but
as uncorruptible are not at risk, which begs the question why you request protection at all.

Cite a source saying they 'called upon a warp entity'. Go on. I dare you to.
You won't be able to, because the only information relating to this particular event is purposely made as vague as possible so that players can draw their own reasonable conclusions.

Leaping to the conclusion of "The Grey Knights are Khorne worshipers!" isn't a 'reasonable' conclusion.
At best you've got "The Grey Knights employ questionable methods and are not above straying to radical rituals to beat Daemons at their own game".

Chaotic isn't it?

Only if you try to make it so. But your points make assumptions that aren't actually in any passage of text relating to the Grey Knights and are null and void.

Just a couple of things to add. Firstly, I think this topic is being given way more thought than the original codex writers ever gave it, in order to try and justify why or whatever happened. Reading this thread, makes me think of that Saturday Night Live sketch years ago with William Shatner, where he was attending a star trek convention. I am sure you know the one. You either enjoy reading the background, or you don't. There is no right or wrong opinion, and it's senseless trying to beat your head against a wall and force someone to like it or dislike it.

Personally, I found it overblown and OTT. However, in a way this is continuing the tradition of many modern codecies - each codex acts to massively support whichever army it is written about, it's not meant to be an over-arching narrative that portrays the 40k universe in a balanced way. Think of how Marneus Calgar is handled in both the Marine codex and the Tyranid Codex respectively, or after reading the Ork codex you get the impression that the Imperium has been pretty much brought to it's knees.

No doubt if the GK were to feature in the next chaos codex, we might well see a story of them where a huge bunch of them are reduced to a pathetic bunch of wimpering little mummy's boys, who's last act after they soil themselves is to get butchered by Magarothraxx the despoiler or whichever Draigo-esque character gets concocted for the next codex. After which, he uses their kidneys to make a massive picture of Khorne which is viewable from space.

If I had read this kind of background in a BL novel, I would simply put it down and stop reading. Of course it's massively overblown, but then it's meant to be. It's the equivalent of Brave Sir Robin's squire, walking around with his knightly master, proclaiming all the brave deeds and heroic things he has done. In actual fact he hasn't done half as much, and with nothing like the same élan, but you won't hear that when you are only reading one side of the story.

I think it boils down to Matt Ward doesn't understand how to write the concept of 40k. He's shown bizarre needs for an inspirational hero who is as OTT as he is pure and holy ala Sanguinor and Draigo, which doesn't really fit in the universe as presented so far. He's mishandled motivations, ex: everyone desires to be ultra, necrons letting BA go, BA not slaughtering xeno, the SoB incident. The reason Phil Kelly is loved and Matt Ward is hated is because Kelly can write and design for the universe.

Cheesecat wrote:

Well I'm trying to figure out what makes SOB blood special over other humans, because I always thought their blood was composed of the same properties as most people.

Is there not a long standing tradition in this sort of genre with regards to the power of virgin blood ?

Surtur wrote:The reason Phil Kelly is loved and Matt Ward is hated is because Kelly can write and design for the universe.

And yet, Kelly created the Thunderwolf Cavalry. He's been working for GW for at least two decades now.

People complain endlessly about it and it works for the universe.

There's nothing wrong, at all, with Ward's writing in terms of "for the universe". The only thing wrong is his writing ability. For someone who went from just being a rulesmonkey to effectively being 'in charge' of writing fluff and Codices both, he's doing fine working up towards being a good storyteller.

1hadhq wrote:
Can you corrupt the body without corrupting the mind?

Yes.

See:
The Metamorphosis
Swamp Thing
Man Thing
The Thing
Dr. Michael Morbius
Nick Fury's Howling Commandos

Nick Fury's Howling Commandos?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Nick Fury's Howling Commandos?

Yep.

A second Howling Commandos team was introduced in the 2005 series, Nick Fury's Howling Commandos. Its members were:

* Clay Quartermain, the commanding officer of Area 13. He takes over in the first issue from Dum Dum Dugan.
* Warwolf (real name Vince Marcus), the field leader. He is a werewolf who can transform voluntarily whenever Mars is in the night sky.
* Nina Price, a half-vampire and half-werewolf.
* N'Kantu, the Living Mummy a previously existing character. N'Kantu is an undead prince of Ancient Egypt.
* Frankenstein, an intelligent clone of the original Frankenstein's Monster. How this process didn't produce different clones of the various individual body parts making up the original monster was briefly mentioned in issue #1. The response was, "Don't go there".
* Gorilla-Man, a previously existing character. Kenneth Hale is a man trapped in a gorilla's body. He is now a member of the Agents of Atlas.
* John Doe, a zombie depicted as having normal human-level intelligence, in contrast to other zombie characters in the Marvel universe.

And before you say it: Yes, it's ridiculous, and yes, it's AWESOME.

Kanluwen wrote:

And I love how it always goes to someone trying to tell someone else to "calm down".
Do you really think I would get worked up into a tizzy by your post? At best it made me question your grasp of the English language, and at worst it made me assume that you're one of those people who think that the Nemesis 'Ward' Staff was named for the author.

Glad you love it.
The Name/word "Ward" is only found at page 1 of my codex. Guess why?

Kanluwen wrote:
So psykers attacking in the material realm with Nurgle gifted plagues are physical attacks that don't corrupt?

Biological warfare combined with "warp-magic" counts as corruption now?
Or maybe, we keep it 'reasonable' and accept the corrupting part is the additive of the warp which Nurgle mixed into his creations?

Kanluwen wrote:
What "problem"? The story is intentionally vague. The whole point of it is to elevate the deeds of the Grey Knight to a mythical status and to show the lengths they'll go to in order to fulfill their tasks.

So missing details is a good thing now? Good to have our speaker of MrWard who knows his clients intend.

Kanluwen wrote:
We've known for a long time that Imperial Machines have their own distinct 'personality'. Land Raiders have been known to detonate rather than be captured by the forces of traitor Astartes, etc.
The Dreadknight, carrying a Mind-Impulse Unit much like a Titan, would have its own distinct personality...that is blended and shaped by the pilot.

GK vehicles are basically low level psykers, aren't they`? Rules say so. Personality + psi then.

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, no. It's pure faith. We saw that with Euphrati Keeler during the outset of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor wasn't a 'Divine Being' like he is now, and simply by making the sign of the aquila and demanding a daemon to begone--she banished one.

Cool, the Demons must have been auto-banned in 12" at a 2+ then and the Grey Knights just killed the SoB so nobody knows the GK did nothing worth reporting home....because sisters have faith, maybe even more than remembrancers

Really, Keeler is an example why inner strenght and faith IN the fething god emporer is a tool to be wielded for your own protection.

Normally psykers are needed to get rid off Demons ( M-hotep for example ) and most species having psykers are able to banish Demons.
Thus, there are more than 1 way to sent them back into their realm.
But, if you try to use things "holy" "sanctified" etc, its safe to assume the method to make them "holy", sanctified" ,etc is to have faith
in a God( like ) beeing. The aquila may or may not be a valid tool , but the Emperor is since these Demons call him anathema to them and their masters.

Kanluwen wrote:Says who? They're recruited from psykers to begin with.

GW. Claims GK are the last gift he could give to mankind before he was unable to act directly for now.
Thanks BigE. Nice present.

Kanluwen wrote:
To 'banish Daemons', you need their true name.
Closing Warpgates requires lengthy rituals involving various materials and --surprise surprise-- a sacrifice of some kind.

And every psyker knows their true names and obviously all these psykers closing warp gates and / or banning demons waited until the lenghty process of revealing the true name of a demon has been finished before they act.

- So how about a source for the sacrifice made ?
- How about these psykers who did their duty without GK attending?

Kanluwen wrote:
Who says it was a request of protection to the Emperor? Or to anyone?

A sacrifice is always a request. A request has always a recipient.

Its not always answered, but still its intended to gain attention and maybe a wish is granted.
Nobody ever sacrificed anything to be unheard.

Kanluwen wrote:
Cite a source saying they 'called upon a warp entity'. Go on. I dare you to.

Try harder.

Could you please post the whole thing in this blue font ? Its perfectly near unreadable.
You won't be able to, because the only information relating to this particular event is purposely made as vague as possible so that players can draw their own reasonable conclusions.
So

Kanluwen wrote:
Leaping to the conclusion of "The Grey Knights are Khorne worshipers!" isn't a 'reasonable' conclusion.
At best you've got "The Grey Knights employ questionable methods and are not above straying to radical rituals to beat Daemons at their own game".

Was I part of the GK=khornates thread? Did I ever claim GK=Khornates?
NO?
Maybe the conclusion of mine of this story isn't the same as yours.
Mine is Grey knights are GREY. Therefore not white, but also not black. Youre running with that crappy idea of radical GK. Let me tell you :
GK aren't split like the inquisition. One order. No fallen to hunt.
GK guard the dangerous stuff, but don't use it.

Kanluwen wrote: But your points make assumptions that aren't actually in any passage of text relating to the Grey Knights and are null and void.

Why did you reply again? Ah I see, because you wanted to enlighten me with so many quotes but hadn't yet the time to post them?
Right. I missed the part where I had to subscribe to FAW.

PS: whats wrong with He-man on battlecat? I mean, come on Kelly put a lot of effort into getting the T-wolves into the SW dex and is proud of it. Or hes a xenos lover and did it on purpose to ridicule the SM.....

@Platuan4th:

Sorry, don't know any of these.

What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?

I think it's sort of how orks blood is supposed to be green yet it's almost always painted red instead.

Ork blood is supposed to be red. GW has directly said so. Their blood is still iron based.

I love the new GKs the make sense their like the SAS the elite of the elite and thier stat lines and points cost reflect that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?

Simple answer?

Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.

They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.

Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ork blood is supposed to be red. GW has directly said so. Their blood is still iron based.

Yes, this. The green of their skin is meant to be from chlorophyll under the surface, rather than from the colour of their blood. 'Cos, you know, they're plants.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?

Simple answer?

Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.

They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.

Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or

The reason why daemons have invul saves is to represent how they don't really have organs or anatomy. For example of you blow a hole clear through a plague bearer's chest it'll reknit immediately or if you take a bloodletters head of it'll keep fighting anyway. They are only "killed" when they dematerialize (and even then they are only really banished for a while). I think these mountains of daemon corpses are a fluff error.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's with all the daemon bodies in this 'dex? They have daemon body bonfires and do Captain Morgan poses on piles of Daemons throughout it. Don't demons vaporize when killed?

Simple answer?

Daemons bring the stuff of the Warp with them and alter the laws of reality as they come into becoming more and more stable.

They wouldn't 'vaporize' immediately when killed if they've got a firm alteration of the laws of reality and if the area where their incursion is has become more Warp than realspace.

Or the Grey Knights just killed the Daemons either/or

The reason why daemons have invul saves is to represent how they don't really have organs or anatomy. For example of you blow a hole clear through a plague bearer's chest it'll reknit immediately or if you take a bloodletters head of it'll keep fighting anyway. They are only "killed" when they dematerialize (and even then they are only really banished for a while). I think these mountains of daemon corpses are a fluff error.

They're really not though. There's been mention of "daemon corpses" before.

Planetstrike specifically mentioned a force of Astartes that fought Nurgle Daemons and Plague Marines on a world that had recently reappeared from the Warp, and they had to burn the Daemon corpses afterwards.

The more twisted and corrupted a planet, the more tangible Daemons will be.

Well in the case of plague marines they are corporeal. They're just mutants and the others could have actually been similar plague zombie/mutants.

No, it explicitly stated that the Daemon corpses had to be burnt.

Same with the Eisenhorn book. The remains of the Daemon that manifested itself during the autoseance had to be burnt, the Chapel rededicated, etc.

Well it seems people would have daemon skulls and other daemon paraphenlia. Perhaps they would have dematerialized eventually but it takes a while in a place that had a catastrophic warp rift.

And where do the Grey Knights tend to fight?

The important thing to remember is that Grey Knights aren't going to be fighting where there's one or two Daemons showing up.
They're going to be there when things are so bad that the fabric of reality itself is torn asunder.

The GK's are mega when you think that the vast majority of units have force weapons. for 150 ish pts you can kill a unit of 3 carnifexes not too difficulty

just saying

Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands actually have more than just that. They've been given a fairly decent exposition, and much more specifics of them are given than we saw of the Grey Knights.
We knew that they were organized into Clans, we knew that they're heavily into bionics and self-mutilation to attach those, field many Dreadnoughts and Masters of the Forge, etc.
Some of that, however, comes out of the information about their Successor Chapters such as the 'Sons of Medusa'.

Do you mean the fluff where the Iron Hands are organized into Clans and led by a Clan Council and don't have a Chapter Master? Because I'm pretty sure that fluff is obsolete since one of the only mentions the Iron Hands get in the current Ultramarines Space Marine Codex is a quote by their Chapter Master, Kardan Stronos. Though I guess this shouldn't be so surprising considering that in the new fluff the Iron Hands' spiritual liege is himself a Chapter Master (i.e. Marneus Calgar).

So, yeah, considering who wrote the aforementioned codex, I wouldn't really bring up the Iron Hands in an argument defending Matt Ward's respectful treatment of the existing background.

Kanluwen wrote:The Iron Hands have never been big players in the Space Marine codex.

And now evidently their sole reason for existence is to show how awesome the Ultramarines are by comparison.

But I guess it could have been worse. Like, I heard from my friend that Matt Ward was gonna put a fluff piece in the codex where Marneus Calgar hunts down Fulgrim in the Eye of Terror and carves "ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN" into his daemonic buttcheeks, then retrieves Ferrus Manus' severed head, tattoos "MACRAGGE RULES MEDUSA DROOLS!" on its craggy brow and returns it to the Iron Hands along with a personally autographed copy of the Codex Astartes. In gratitude for this magnanimous act the Iron Hands have their lexmechanics draw up papers divorcing Ferrus Manus and adopting Roboute Guilliman as their official primarch and the Iron Hands Chapter Master legally changes his name to "Mini-Calgar" in honor of their spiritual liege. But it got cut due to space constraints.

I read the two stories, and they exemplify the worst of Matt Ward: Not caring about previous fluff and just writing what he thinks it should be.
Bloodtide story: Only one SOB has ever succumbed to chaos...until Matt ward came along. Let's just say for the sake of argument that "some" equals twenty. Twenty times as many in the entire history of the Imperium in one stroke. Nice going, Matt.
Next, the GKs "first act is to turn their blades on the remaining SOB". This is their first choice? Way to go right to the dark side DarthWard.
Then he talks about "the innocent blood thus spilled is mixed with blessed oil". I don't care how you try & justify it, spilling innocent blood is EVIL.
AFAIK, the GKs were fine with their oils & ungeants, but then here come Ward, now we need innocent blood to really protect us? Please.
Moving on to Battle of Kornovin, after smashing through a bodyguard, which I could see happening and have no problem with, but then "knocks the Daemon Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on his heart"
What the ? What is Montarion doing while this is going on? Drinking tea? Apparently, in Ward's view, He doesn't do ANYTHING but just let it happen. That is a load of you-know-what.
Irony: I can take my Archon, a Klaivex w/demiklaives & 4 other Incubi & chop that same guy into mincemeat.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...
NERDRAGE!

reds8n wrote:
Is there not a long standing tradition in this sort of genre with regards to the power of virgin blood ?

If SoB were all virgins, perhaps, but remember that they do not, in fact, take a vow of chastity. It might have made more sense if, say, they had been mentioned to be nulls or something.

Have we ever had Sisters of Battle depicted as 'sexually active'?

No?

I'm pretty certain then that we can consider them to effectively be virgins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Depicted in canon.

Not 4chan or fan fiction.

Kanluwen wrote:Have we ever had Sisters of Battle depicted as 'sexually active'?

No?

I'm pretty certain then that we can consider them to effectively be virgins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Depicted in canon.

Not 4chan or fan fiction.

YES. (drinking, smoking, and card playing, too) Read Cain's Last Stand. Though it should be noted that Cain himself is mildly surprised.

Inquisitor Vail includes an annotation re that SoB do not take vows of Chastity.

EDIT: as an extra, I'll toss in Daemonifuge, where the sister was sleeping with the daemon possessed navigator.

Yeah, but if Sisters players refuse to see those as canon then I refuse to as well