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Scarey Nerd wrote:Just because it fits their original fluff doesn't make it good

40K is grimdark, yes, but there has to be a line, surely. Space Marines aren't mindless, and they're not so single-minded that nothing matters except their goals. If the eradication of Daemons was the GK sole purpose, and they're willing to sacrifice billions of human beings to do so, they are defeating themselves. If you slaughter your allies to preserve your secrecy or to further your mission to destroy Chaos, surely you are ignoring the point of your mission to start with: To save humanity. If they're willing to ignore what should be the primary purpose of their existence, then as an organisation their usefulness ceases to matter.

The murder of the Sisters on St. Mariel was to make sure that the GK were not corrupted, though I thought the point of them was that they were incorruptible. I don't know if that was an accidental contradiction or if I missed something there, but...

In my humble opinion.

PS: I'm 17, not 16

I fully agree

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, but if Sisters players refuse to see those as canon then I refuse to as well

Um, Kan, I hate to point it out to you, but I have a small sisters army, and I see it as canon, so, um, yeah... (and Daemonifuge it was enshrined as canon in Radicals Handbook, IIRC)

Further, Blood of Martyrs, which goes into serious (some might say needless) detail on SoB including such entertaining things as a ritual pulled right out of Harry Potter for SoB novitiates being assigned to their new orders also at no point mentions chastity.

There's no reason to not take it as cannon. Furthermore there's even less reason to take the opposite as cannon.

Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?

Round and fething round we go.

We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.

Kanluwen wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?

Round and fething round we go.

We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.

Yes, but most of those, even ones that killed/corrupted every living thing on the planet at the command of Nurgle (who one would hope knows a bit more about contagion then Khorne does) and powered by a greater daemon large enough to require three orbiting strike cruisers to kill it with lance strikes, even regular space marines have proven resistant to (see Planetstrike). How much more so space Marines specifically geared up and trained for this exact thing?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Look I just want to know why the GK's weren't protected from the Bloodtide by their faith, training, and wards. Some of the sisters survived the Bloodtide uncorrupted, and they have less training than Grey Knights. Do you see the disconnect there?

Round and fething round we go.

We don't know what the Bloodtide is. All we know is that there's something associated with it called the "Goreflood".
With most Daemonic plagues that have been described in 40k lore, there's a physical and a spiritual component. You can be as pure of heart and protected by as many wards as you want--a Daemonic plague powered by a pissed off Greater Daemon is going to break right through conventional wards.

Yes, but most of those, even ones that killed/corrupted every living thing on the planet at the command of Nurgle (who one would hope knows a bit more about contagion then Khorne does) and powered by a greater daemon large enough to require three orbiting strike cruisers to kill it with lance strikes, even regular space marines have proven resistant to (see Planetstrike). How much more so space Marines specifically geared up and trained for this exact thing?

Remember in that particular story that several Marines were tainted though. To the point that "the Space Marines flung open the vault-door that their infected brethren might take the field one last time".

The infected brothers(or what's left of them) were free from the taint after the Greater Daemon was killed. If that's what was happening with the Goreflood and Bloodtide...

Then it makes even more sense for the Sisters to have willingly offered themselves up as sacrifices, if it cleansed an entire Shrineworld of taint with the Grey Knights killing the Daemon producing it.

Kanluwen wrote:
Remember in that particular story that several Marines were tainted though. To the point that "the Space Marines flung open the vault-door that their infected brethren might take the field one last time".

The infected brothers(or what's left of them) were free from the taint after the Greater Daemon was killed. If that's what was happening with the Goreflood and Bloodtide...

Then it makes even more sense for the Sisters to have willingly offered themselves up as sacrifices, if it cleansed an entire Shrineworld of taint with the Grey Knights killing the Daemon producing it.

Except they didn't offer themselves up, they were immediately 'put to the sword'.

'Put to the Sword: (idiom) If someone is put to the sword, he or she is killed or executed. (alt) to have sexual intercourse with."


I grant, I'll laugh my ass off if they meant the second one, but it would make just as much sense, Slaanesh being opposed to Khorne.

The term "put to the sword" isn't used.

The term used is "turn their blades upon".

Granted, this could just be another example of Ward's lack of ability when it comes to writing something that is meant to be a story and not rules.

Kanluwen wrote:The term "put to the sword" isn't used.

The term used is "turn their blades upon".

Granted, this could just be another example of Ward's lack of ability when it comes to writing something that is meant to be a story and not rules.

'"turn your blade upon (Idiom): see Put to the Sword, contrast with fell upon their blade.

My money is that it's just Ward struggling in his endless battle with the English Language.

"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Eh... again, Josephus states that most of the people were not actually willing, and it was told to him by two women who had survived by hiding with their children in a cistern. Once the soldiers butchered all the remaining civilians, they drew lots and slew one another until only the last man actually killed himself.

Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.

Then it's settled, everyone can stop complaining or we'll put them in the cistern!

Buzzsaw wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.

He's probably making reference to a translation of Josephus' The Jewish War. However, some idioms just don't quite translate... I remember once 'tickled pink' brought gasps of horror in China as it did not translate properly.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.

He's probably making reference to a translation of Josephus' The Jewish War.

Yay! Edumcation!

Kanluwen wrote:
Yay! Edumcation!

I still find Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico, though absurdly self aggrandizing, an interesting read. Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a little too preachy...

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Turned their blades upon" was also used to describe the Jews at Masada, and that was done willingly.

Err, who exactly used that phrase to describe the events at Masada? A Google search for "Turned their blades upon" and "Masada" returns no results.

He's probably making reference to a translation of Josephus' The Jewish War.

Yay! Edumcation!

Yeah... So, the answer would be...? I mean, Kan is (trying) to make a very textual argument, while at the same time making only the vaguest of references. So, who made used this exact phrase? Where did they make it?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Yay! Edumcation!

I still find Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico, though absurdly self aggrandizing, an interesting read. Gibbon's Decline and Fall is a little too preachy...

"The Gallic War" is the first book I ever read in one sitting. I loved it.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Yeah... So, the answer would be...? I mean, Kan is (trying) to make a very textual argument, while at the same time making only the vaguest of references. So, who made used this exact phrase? Where did they make it?

He's probably working from Thackeray. It's the most common translation from the Greek.

EDIT: IIRC Thackeray used Benedikt Niese's edited version of the Greek original, however. So it's not the best source.


EDITX2: Caesar had a way with words. My first one the whole way through was Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I pretty much agree with Manchu. There is only one thing about the GK fluff I do not like. The Purifiers. They had they potential to be one of the most badass units fluff wise, and they ruined it with the "Even more incorruptible than the other incorruptible Grey Knights." part. I mean come on, this isn't a matter of what is in character for them, its just common sense. Your either incorruptible by chaos or you aren't. I doubt there are varying levels of incorruptibility.

Mike Noble wrote:I pretty much agree with Manchu. There is only one thing about the GK fluff I do not like. The Purifiers. They had they potential to be one of the most badass units fluff wise, and they ruined it with the "Even more incorruptible than the other incorruptible Grey Knights." part. I mean come on, this isn't a matter of what is in character for them, its just common sense. Your either incorruptible by chaos or you aren't. I doubt there are varying levels of incorruptibility.

And I doubt you're right about there not being "varying levels of incorruptibility" simply because we've got novels from Dan Abnett, who pretty much has 'written the book' on corruption from daemonic and Chaos taint, that say there are "varying levels of incorruptibility".

We've also got the Tau, who aren't incorruptible but simply harder to corrupt.

Corruption is a process that requires an expenditure of energy on the part of the Ruinous Powers. If it's too little return for too much energy, they'll find the next tasty treat.

Kanluwen wrote:
And I doubt you're right about there not being "varying levels of incorruptibility" simply because we've got novels from Dan Abnett, who pretty much has 'written the book' on corruption from daemonic and Chaos taint, that say there are "varying levels of incorruptibility".

We've also got the Tau, who aren't incorruptible but simply harder to corrupt.

Corruption is a process that requires an expenditure of energy on the part of the Ruinous Powers. If it's too little return for too much energy, they'll find the next tasty treat.

Blank would be impossible to corrupt, off the top of my head.

After actually reading through the background of the new GK codex, it was nowhere near as bad as I thoughtit would be.

True, a common trend in his books is that the Imperium will always revert to the harshest measures possible even when there is no real necessity (which is why I liked the IG codex fluff and Imperial Armour, more concerned with the vas resources the Imperium would throw at problems before any calls for exterminatus and other drastic measures). And yes, I did have to wonder aloud at the killing of sisters to protect themselves, given that we are actually talking about grey knights here it makes no real sense. But really, there's nothing overly offensive in the background. Certainly not warranting the anger that has sprung up on these forums.

Perhaps an issue is inconsistency, if the Grey Knights are willing to mind wipe the whole Blood Angels chapter, why not the same for an IG regiment?

BaronIveagh wrote:Blank would be impossible to corrupt, off the top of my head.

Depends, does falling to Nurgles Pestilence count?Or are we using some other method of corruption.

Regardless, their scarcity is enough reason to disregard blanks as the answer.

Also keep in mind that although only one Sister has fallen to chaos, physical corruption and mental corruption is different. 'Fall' is generally associated with mental corruption.

As well, remember that GK and Sisters have this purity claim to fame based on 'what is known'. There may have been thousands of corrupted individuals who were never known or recovered. For example, if the bloodtide had not been stopped by the GK there then all of the GK could have been corrupted when the world was consumed.

@Kanluwen and others:

Please do not post images with cursing. Thanks! ~ Manchu

It's. A. Game. save the energy for betterments of your life. Cheers.

Thanks for your sage advice, xcasex!

Sorry Manchu.
Since we're under parental advisory, i'll rephrase:

"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the <WET LEOPARD GROWL>, even if you win, you're still <WET LEOPARD GROWL>.

Better?

You would think that you would learn after the first time... How about you find another thread to troll?

xcasex wrote:Sorry Manchu.
Since we're under parental advisory, i'll rephrase:

"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the <WET LEOPARD GROWL>, even if you win, you're still <WET LEOPARD GROWL>.

Better?

I have to wonder what you're doing in a thread where people are arguing about fluff if you think arguing about fluff is pointless. Just as a reminder since you're pretty new, trolling is against the rules here, too. (You might want to take another look through those rules via the link in my signature.)