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xcasex wrote:Sorry Manchu.
Since we're under parental advisory, i'll rephrase:

"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the <WET LEOPARD GROWL>, even if you win, you're still <WET LEOPARD GROWL>.

Better?

No. Considering this is a free place to discuss the background of a fantasy game, one random guy putting in a 'witty' comment about how people should get on with their lives, is not welcome. Please, remove yourself from DakkaDakka, or indeed any open forum, for fear that you may repeat this needless and indeed, hypocritical act.

On topic, I'm not entirely sure why people insist in using the same arguments, only for Kanwulen to have to repeat the same explanation. What is it that people don't understand? And thank you to the people who actually took the time to read the codex in its entirety, or just get a copy, and not skimming the two note worthy passages and thus form an opinion on the whole thing and Matt Ward in general.

Alright, let's just continue on with alternatively attacking and defending Matt Ward rather than one another.

oh carry on, i'm not trolling, just trying to you know.. get it back on track. since there was what i interpret as ad hominem rhethorics being used by kanluwen.

banhammering someone for trying to get a thread back on track is not my interpretation of constructive argumentation.

xcasex wrote:oh carry on, i'm not trolling, just trying to you know.. get it back on track. since there was what i interpret as ad hominem rhethorics being used by kanluwen.

I do not think those words mean what you think those mean.

Kanluwen has consistently provided a balanced perspective based on actual canon rather than 'ward whining'.

Again, learn when you've lost and walk away.

Manchu wrote:Alright, let's just continue on with alternatively attacking and defending Matt Ward rather than one another.

Amen to that.

And tbh, what i've read by Ward is fine, but the whole fluff has gone over to be more grim and gothic than say rogue trader and 2ed. less hope, more salve mea ex infernis.

When i first read a piece about the GK back when I was playing 2ed, they came across as brutally effective and shadowy, back then, in that specific story, they offed a planetary governor and recruited his helper. everyone in the city were purged i believe.

Draigo as someone noted is the proverbial lizard scaling the wall of a well. two steps up, four down.

No banhammers being pulled on you here, my friend.

Back on track is: the Bloodtide story in the GK dex is

(a) reasonable and ties in with previous fluff, evidencing Matt Ward's excellent grasp of 40k,

-OR-

(b) over the top nonsense, evidencing Matt Ward's defficient grasp of 40k.

My opinion remains that Ward's story is a good one that makes great sense and reminds us why the Grey Knights are not called the White Knights.

It's also possible, of course, that Mat Ward could understand 40k perfectly and hence why some of his stuff is ridiculously over the top.

the bloodtide story accurately reflects their modus operandi.
they're supposed to be the last line of defence against daemonic incursions and the earlier pre-5th ed fluff point to them doing whatever it takes to bludgeon the enemy back to whence it came.

i'll try to find that story as soon as i dig it out from wherever i found it.

xcasex wrote:And tbh, what i've read by Ward is fine, but the whole fluff has gone over to be more grim and gothic than say rogue trader and 2ed. less hope, more salve mea ex infernis.

It's true that a lot has changed between 2nd and 5th but the emphasis on GrimDark is not a contribution of either Matt Ward or 5th. Ward's stuff fits in with what 40k has been about for a long time now. The DH dex was not less GrimDark by any means -- there was just a lot less in it. I've thought a lot about Draigo and can't come up with much of a defense. Needless to say, this is 40k: OTT is the order of the day. But Ward does take it too far with Draigo, IMO. I can't rationalize his defeat of Mortarion without more details. The Bloodtide story, however, is totally fine. The book is better with it in than without it.

iproxtaco wrote:
On topic, I'm not entirely sure why people insist in using the same arguments, only for Kanwulen to have to repeat the same explanation. What is it that people don't understand? And thank you to the people who actually took the time to read the codex in its entirety, or just get a copy, and not skimming the two note worthy passages and thus form an opinion on the whole thing and Matt Ward in general.

Maybe people are dissatisfied with Kanwulen explanation and they might be repeating the same arguments because they feel they weren't effectively explained.

I read a thread earlier that speculated that Draigo isnt.. well.. draigo but rather one of the founders (garro etc) which could help explain the might of such a feat.

But like you, the whole carving on mortarions heart is a bit unspecific without more details.

Manchu wrote:No banhammers being pulled on you here, my friend.

Back on track is: the Bloodtide story in the GK dex is

(a) reasonable and ties in with previous fluff, evidencing Matt Ward's excellent grasp of 40k,

-OR-

(b) over the top nonsense, evidencing Matt Ward's defficient grasp of 40k.

My opinion remains that Ward's story is a good one that makes great sense and reminds us why the Grey Knights are not called the White Knights.

It's also possible, of course, that Mat Ward could understand 40k perfectly and hence why some of his stuff is ridiculously over the top.

I don't really understand all the hate either. I thought the blood tide story was really good. I think it comes down to people thinking the sisters were butchered, but I'd imagine they're pious enough that they'd all kneel down and allow their own throats to be slit. Or maybe they'd do it themselves?

OTT is the only logical progression for the fluff. It's how the backstory in ANY universe is handled. Challenges have to become progressively harder to keep an audience entertained. If it hadn't gone that far, people would have complained that the fluff was unremarkable as in the IG codex.
Who would want to keep reading about the same characters accomplishing the same things? If every book at them staying at Super Saiyan level 2, people would lose interest.

Manchu wrote:
(b) over the top nonsense, evidencing Matt Ward's defficient grasp of 40k.

Lets stop and think about this: The Primarchs, designed to be the Emperor's personal squad of ultimate badasses, break up and go their separate ways after clubbing each other for a while. Then some get even more super charged by the Ruinous powers, to the point they were able to eliminate many of their former brothers, including everyone's favorite spiritual liege. Every space marine in the universe, themselves ultimate badasses, thinks that their personal primarch was, next to the Emperor, THE ultimate badass, and has some fairly good evidence to back that up.

Now Draigo comes along BADDERASSED then a PRIMARCH and secretly has the information to raise the Emperor from the dead.

Possibilities:
A) Matt Ward inserted a Mary Sue

B) The Inquisition's sercret attempt to recreate the primarch project had at least one success, in addition to spawning all sorts of mutant space marines such as the Lamentors

C) It's an elaborate ruse by the Alpha Legion, in cahoots with Mortarion.


Which of these is most likely?

I like option B.

I vote for D.
D) Draigo and others are the secret shame of the GKs, near immortal and amped up founding members of the GK.

I doubt any of the actual codex characters are "founders" of the GK.
The 4 represent all some aspects of the GK.
1 as the psyker ability, 1 as the endurance against all odds, 1 as the martial prowess to best the foes, 1 as the control through discipline.

Draigo is something that belongs into a comic book, as is.

- Mortarion, the Primarch we all had to belive sits on his demon world and does nothing, because he got no fluff to draw any other conclusion from. Maybe if Draigo was one of the First Grandmasters and a chance would be there he is Nathaniel Garro, yes I could see a way to make a story of revenge come out believable. But no, he is the heir to a fallen Grandmaster and thus not that old.

- Draigo, the bestest GK as even the mightiest demons fear him, he who cannot tread his own path since a curse binds him, would be a fine
tragic hero if there wasn't this trend of strangling avatars, marking demon primarchs and other questionable ideas to aggrandize a character.
Sooner or later a certain author will run out of "worthy opponents" to prove a characters superawesomesauceness.
The mystification of the achievements of a "hero" character may become a piece of fluff. But amongst other pieces presented as "historical facts" ? ( yes, yes, no facts in 40k. Still some background has to hold a few ml of water...). Keeping it conform to one way to interpret how it is meant at a few pages of fluff cannot be to much to ask for.

Draigo falls into the category of:
Mr Ward isn't responsible to be clear.
Does a name capitalized across the 1st page not include a bit of responsibility?

Somehow, better editors seem preferrable over a new interpretation to "save" a badly transported meaning.

Definitely not D. The grand masters represent the original 8 founders. You wouldn't need a representative if the actual thing was standing next to you. Draigo's first battle was in 799.M41.

What would it matter if Draigo was Garro? That changes nothing. Mortarion is a Daemon Prince Primarch.

But let's reconsider what that could mean. Are all daemon princes equal? If so, we have a statline for Mortarion -- two actually, one in C:CSM and the other in C:CD, so take your pick. In either case, it's totally reasonable that a model with Draigo's statline could single-handedly defeat a model with a Daemon Prince statline.

If we're honest, this has nothing to do with a GK special character beating on a Daemon Prince. That's totally reasonable. If Unamed GK BadAss #298 had carved his mentor's name onto the heart of Unamed Daemon Prince #459, I doubt anyone would have raised the alarm in the first place.

The real issue is that the character in question was made up by an author who has been the butt of a lame internet fad. And that author had the utter gall to say that his character, who he just made up for this new dex, beat up a more established character.

Now I fully acknowledge that there is a real nuance here, a real problem and not just whining. It's well-established, as the good Baron points out, that the highest level of BadAssery possible in the GrimDark is represented by the Emperor and that the Primarchs rank a close second (super close, in regard to Horus). So it's not unreasonable to conclude that a Primarch Daemon Prince should be a lot tougher than Unnamed Daemon Prince #459.

That's the part I can't defend or even really explain. It actually does take real gall to write a story where your own character takes down a better established character, especially a character that was formerly known as one of the absolute most terrifying opponents in the franchise. I guess the thing to keep in mind is that Matt Ward isn't just some dude on /tg/ writing awful fanfiction; rather, it's actually the canon. But I have to agree that it would make more sense to read some of that stuff on /tg/ than in an actual codex . . .

Manchu wrote:The real issue is that the character in question was made up by an author who has been the butt of a lame internet fad. And that author had the utter gall to say that his character, who he just made up for this new dex, beat up a more established character.

@Manchu: Nicely put. That pretty much covers it.

@The rest: Not like the GKs don't have a history of taking down Daemon Primarchs. Draigo just gave him a present on the way out. (And again, read the book, Draigo wasn't alone against Mort.)

it's actually the canon.

This is key (and indeed your whole post was nicely put).

What people have to swallow, somehow, is that actually Ward does know his stuff'. If he, in anyone's opinion, irreconcilably contradicts previous canon, then that canon must now be considered revised, no matter what the pain. Because Ward is the voice of GW. Rage against it or reconcile yourself to it, he isn't going to go away and what he writes is GW approved fact, unlike all our opinions, no matter how strongly held.

I guess one thing to keep in mind is that GW considers its own "canon" sources to be unreliable: i.e., the fluff text of any codex is supposed to be made up of myths, legends, rumors, propaganda, and some facts.

Good point. And that then allows the Draigo nonsense to be booted firmly into the realm of myth and for those who weep over the fate of the space nuns to say the facts in the case are merely distorted in the GK recoirds. Everyone is happy and we can all sleep easy in our beds...

I wonder if GW take the same approach to their rules-writing...

Yeah, this is pretty much how people view the Wolf of Fenris incident. I love SW and Red Corsairs, so sometimes I say the story is a pack of filthy lies and sometimes I say it's a glorious omen of imperial ruin.

It does make you wonder a little though..

The GK actively wipe all record of themselves off the official records, save for a few chapters they work with like the Silver Skulls. No legends of the grey knights are supposed to be out there in the first place, due to their policy of execution and enforced mindwipe.

So who are all these legends of great and not-so-late Draigo intended to be heard by, other than the Grey Knights themselves?

For a group of iron-willed, fluff-fearless (if not in game anymore) paladin-wannabes they seem to require some serious emotional support from these overblown 'legends'

I get your point . . . as a joke. Otherwise, the delivery of the fluff text is meant to draw in the reader -- to make you feel privy to the deep, dark secrets of the Imperium of Man. Of course, in the setting, the GK would have their own legends and, like every other faction in 40k, they're a bit foggy about their own past. That's the thing about a dark age: even the best-equipped are still backwards.

I'm going ot point to the 'No Such Chapter' thing as another very good reason that the SoB were not williang sacrifices.

You're in the middle of a daemonic holocaust, and some unknown guys in power armor show up. What is your assumption:

A) Grey Knights that no one knows exist?

B) CSMs, that it's fairly well known exist among the forces of the Imperium.

The important thing that seemingly always gets glossed over is that Draigo wasn't by himself when he 'beat up' Mortarion. Mortarion had already fought(and slain) the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Draigo was elevated on the battlefield, and Mortarion fled after this instance happened.

Page 15, upper right corner: 901.M41 'The Battle of Kornovin'

I believe it was myself who speculated that Draigo could be Garro, but it was very loose, and I don't stand by it as a theory. Essentially, Garro, could or could not have changed his name to Janus as is tradition with all Grey Knights. I believe they're different people, Janus likely being a psyker of some power. Garro then was the first Brotherhood Champion, due to his efficiency with his sword Libertas. Chances of surviving any great span of years is highly unlikely, and at some point Garro was listed as dead. However, I started to specualte that he and some of the other founders, may have had themselves secretly listed as dead, changed their identities and then been covertly put back into circulation. Since then, Garro, and possibly several other founders have survived due to their immense skill built up over 10,000 years of battling the Daemonic. Long term exposure to the Warp under the protection of their various wards and a potential gift from Malcador or The Emperor, either in geneseed or psychic form, and this latent ability has been amplified by training and long term exposure to the Warp. The founder have stayed long past their time to watch over their sons, making sure nothing, or no one goes astray, and to make sure The Emperor's holy duty is carried out for as long as necessary.Just speculation, would be a nice conversion opportunity to make Garro with Libertas.

It's not important, just thought I'd put it in this thread for anyone interested after there was chatter about it earlier on. That's two very good point people have put out. Grey Knights are likely even secretive amongst each other, Draigo's attack on Mortarion is in the realm of myth. Whether you agree or not, it's there and is now officially cannon, like it or not. I'm not denying people the rite to debate the story, but Matt Ward is the voice of GW, and has crafted, IMHO, a better image for the Grey Knights.

BaronIveagh wrote:B) CSMs, that it's fairly well known exist among the forces of the Imperium.

I've already contemplated this situation and, while it's true that the Sisters would not recognize the GK, they would not think they were CSM, either. CSM don't go around dressed in graven lauds to the God Emperor or emblazoned with symbols of Inquisitorial authority.

Manchu wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:B) CSMs, that it's fairly well known exist among the forces of the Imperium.

I've already contemplated this situation and, while it's true that the Sisters would not recognize the GK, they would not think they were CSM, either. CSM don't go around dressed in graven lauds to the God Emperor or emblazoned with symbols of Inquisitorial authority.

Yeah, but, consider: it's a deamonic holocaust. Are you going to believe what your eyes see, particularly after most of your sisters have already been consumed, or are you going to assume it's an (Alpha Legion style) trick?

Possibly, but then there would be a whole lot more betrayal and distrust in the Imperium if everyone thought any Inquisitor or Space Marine they had never seen before was a traitor in disguise.