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There have been rules out there for Combat Patrol and I've seen Killteam rules, but I don't think either of these are current. I think the 500-pt game is alive and well, but at roughly 5 pts per Ork, we are talking dozens and dozens of models for even a 500-pt game.

While it might be possible to game with, say, just the models you get out of a troop box (and opponent does the same) my question is: would the game be any good? Or does 40K simply need a certain minimum of models to really work at all?

Asked on behalf of very new players, players with limited time to play, and players who might like to just try out a new army without having to go in both feet first.

Small point games are really fun IMO. They tend to be a lot more tactical. There are certainly points ranges in which armies will function better, but overall the game is meant to be expandable from a few hundred points on up to 3000 points. After 3K the FOC becomes too restrictive and you're getting into Apocalypse territory.

I often hear that 1500 points is considered the "balance" point for 40k, that it was designed and tested chiefly at that level in the last two editions. 500 points does leave you with limited options, especially since HQ choices can eat up over a 5th of the available points !On the other hand, units that are otherwise underpowered can shine at this level.

There is a current set of kill-team rules, btw. It is in the Battle Missions book. 200 pt limit, restricted to 0-1elites choice, 0-2 troops choices, and/or 0-1 fast attack. Every model acts as an independent unit.

I feel that 40K works best at 1,000 to 1,500 which give most armies a reasonable chance to include some good units while still making list design a challenge.

Games below 1,000 points can be fun and playable, though some armies will have serious advantages and disadvantages. For example, under the Combat Patrol rules a Tyranid army can't be legal at 500 points. However if the rules are relaxed slightly, the Tervigon suddenly becomes a mighty powerhouse of destruction, thanks to its ability to spawn more troops in action.

Games smaller than 500 points need the unit structure to be adapted, as with the Kill Team rules.

Part of the fun of a wargame is the number of separate manoeuvre units at your disposal. I mean, a 300 point army consisting of a single unit is a bit boring.

(The game OGRE is an exception.)

As was said, 40k was balanced at 1500 or so. Beyond that you start seeing some armies pulling ahead (IG tank line of doom!), and below that you see some things fail. However, it is possible to adapt...I don't think there's a minimum number of models to field, hell I've seen Hero Clash games that tend to work out pretty well, and that's probably less than 10 models a player.

500 points works good with learning how to play the game, but I seriously think the game only truly works in the 1000-2000 point range.

Many armies can't compete at low levels (SM and eldar), and others will crush them quickly, simply by being cheaper (I'm looking at you orks).

Kilkrazy wrote:I feel that 40K works best at 1,000 to 1,500 which give most armies a reasonable chance to include some good units while still making list design a challenge.

Games below 1,000 points can be fun and playable, though some armies will have serious advantages and disadvantages. For example, under the Combat Patrol rules a Tyranid army can't be legal at 500 points. However if the rules are relaxed slightly, the Tervigon suddenly becomes a mighty powerhouse of destruction, thanks to its ability to spawn more troops in action.

Depends how you go about relaxing the rules. If you say 'sure, ignore the wound limit rule', that Tervigon is ridiculous in combat patrol. The better way is to allow them a Tyranid Prime, which is still a good HQ, but not nearly as broken at that point level.

Well, When you get at that level, orks can really dominate. You can pull up a 5 man squad of nob bikers and biker boss, or even 6 kans with a mek.

Games below 1500 (hell, higher IMO, but let's say 1500) are only good for learning the rules. The game simply is not balanced at that level, and it's very easy to reach saturation of armor or infantry with certain armies that can be nigh-impossible to deal with unless you build specifically for that.

Smaller games are not at all "more tactical", since the vagaries of luck are that much more significant when you don't have the points for redundancy.

withershadow wrote:Games below 1500 (hell, higher IMO, but let's say 1500) are only good for learning the rules. The game simply is not balanced at that level, and it's very easy to reach saturation of armor or infantry with certain armies that can be nigh-impossible to deal with unless you build specifically for that.

Smaller games are not at all "more tactical", since the vagaries of luck are that much more significant when you don't have the points for redundancy.

This mostly comes down to wether you're deliberately trying to be an donkey-cave at those points levels. Small point games aren't just for learning the rules, they're good for quick games when you don't have as much time as you'd like. If you need to try to cheese a sub-1000 point game by bringing a Land Raider or a pair of Leman Russes, I really feel sorry for you.

I've played a few games at about 750 pts as SM vs IG and they were extremely entertaining. havent seen other armies in such actions but i think these games are great for fun games that have been stripped down to the basics

Kill Team.

That is all.

quite a few of the armies just don't function well under 1000 points.

namely most MEQ armies. they just can't fit in the mandatory HQ and 2 troops and still have a decent force.


Horde armies like Nids, Guard, and orks perform really well at those low points(orks are practically overpowered) because they have such cheap troops and can afford upgrades.

Grey Templar wrote:quite a few of the armies just don't function well under 1000 points.

namely most MEQ armies. they just can't fit in the mandatory HQ and 2 troops and still have a decent force.


Horde armies like Nids, Guard, and orks perform really well at those low points(orks are practically overpowered) because they have such cheap troops and can afford upgrades.

Barebones Captain, 2 Barebones Scout Squads, Land Raider = 500
"UMAD EVERYBODY?"

I think that 40k ceases to function well under 1000 points and above 2000 due to table size and range issues.

Small games are playable, but you need to modify the rules. Allow models to all operate as ICs, stuff like that.

Taking a LR at anything under about 750 pts is a bit ugly, but not that horrific, as it is a huge point sink that can be taken out by one lucky hit, for most armies (there are some glaring exceptions).

I refuse to play Necrons at 500 pts, as it's next to impossible to win, barring a mission that allows changes to the FOC.

10 warriors
10 warriors
Lord with 40 pts of gear

aaand you're done... :(

-Loki- wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I feel that 40K works best at 1,000 to 1,500 which give most armies a reasonable chance to include some good units while still making list design a challenge.

Games below 1,000 points can be fun and playable, though some armies will have serious advantages and disadvantages. For example, under the Combat Patrol rules a Tyranid army can't be legal at 500 points. However if the rules are relaxed slightly, the Tervigon suddenly becomes a mighty powerhouse of destruction, thanks to its ability to spawn more troops in action.

Depends how you go about relaxing the rules. If you say 'sure, ignore the wound limit rule', that Tervigon is ridiculous in combat patrol. The better way is to allow them a Tyranid Prime, which is still a good HQ, but not nearly as broken at that point level.

Yes, very true. I was thinking about escalation format, in which your first 500 points are carried forward to the next size army which could be 1,000.

Some armies just become ridiculously overpowered or underpowered once you get below certain points levels. Space Wolves for instance, can field a thunderwolf mounted lord with a 3+ inv and immune to instant death in a 500 point game. Not much can beat that at that level.

It also makes some units much better, a vindicator in a 500 point list will wreck space marine or other high point's per model armies, because they likely won't be able to close fast enough to neutralize it.

A small game of 40k Still means more models then a War Machine game with 2 robots punching each other.

I do think though that a small games like 500 points should not have to use Force Organization Chart other then a HQ to make them fun. Basically thats how it is in War Machine and thats how they get away with those small games not being horribly borring. I personally rather play a small 40k Game 500 pts with only a mandatory HQ and rest up to you.

Kilkrazy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I feel that 40K works best at 1,000 to 1,500 which give most armies a reasonable chance to include some good units while still making list design a challenge.

Games below 1,000 points can be fun and playable, though some armies will have serious advantages and disadvantages. For example, under the Combat Patrol rules a Tyranid army can't be legal at 500 points. However if the rules are relaxed slightly, the Tervigon suddenly becomes a mighty powerhouse of destruction, thanks to its ability to spawn more troops in action.

Depends how you go about relaxing the rules. If you say 'sure, ignore the wound limit rule', that Tervigon is ridiculous in combat patrol. The better way is to allow them a Tyranid Prime, which is still a good HQ, but not nearly as broken at that point level.

Yes, very true. I was thinking about escalation format, in which your first 500 points are carried forward to the next size army which could be 1,000.

Would still work. I've seen plenty of people have success with dual Prime builds, so escalating to 1,000, just add another Prime. Going to 1500, gives you more points to use on other things without an expensive Tyrant sucking up points.

Cranberry Muffinman wrote:A small game of 40k Still means more models then a War Machine game with 2 robots punching each other.

I do think though that a small games like 500 points should not have to use Force Organization Chart other then a HQ to make them fun. Basically thats how it is in War Machine and thats how they get away with those small games not being horribly borring. I personally rather play a small 40k Game 500 pts with only a mandatory HQ and rest up to you.

I do hope you're not dissing Warmachine. When it comes to the basic ruleset, they leave GW in the dust.

I like to use these restrictions at 500pts. Keeps things reasonably well under control.

http://www.patrolclash.org.uk/pcrules.htm

Is there something analogous to the 'Warbands' rules found in fantasy?

it's called Combat patrol.

CP's Restrictions on equipment and stats, as well as the more lenient Prerequisit choices somewhat balances it out, but things like PMs in Rhino spam are still broken.

I often wind up playing 500 pt games at either my FLGS with newer players trying to get used to the game or at home with my family members, who're interested in the game, but not so much so that they're willing to sink the money into buying 1500 pts worth of units.

I rather enjoy playing the smaller, "2 troop, 1 hq" games, simply becomes more of a match of wits and personal combat between the armies. It's easier to imagine what's happening on the board, and fill in all the blood, guts, and explosions in with your mind's eye, if any of that makes sense.