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*Disclaimer 1: I refer to space marines and their variants meaning to include codex marines, BA, BT, DA, GK, SW and Chaos Marines.

**Disclaimer 2: This is not a flame or invitation for others on the forum to attack marine players, it's a question for consideration.

The questions I ask are:

Is it easier to learn to use space marines? They appear far easier to master, you have far less on the table and what you have is far more likely to do precisely as you like and survive far more that's thrown at it.

Space Marine armies usually contain a high range of choices for each aspect of the force organisational slots, does this higher number of choices grant additional safety nets?

Are Space Marine choices for each aspect of the force organisational slot, with simple degree of drastic adaptability by simple things like heavy/special weapon changes, unfairly advantaged?

The viability of many choices in Space Marine codices, coupled with the smaller model count/increased abilities of said choices, means that whilst many non-Marine armies rely on spamming certain 'no brainer' options, the Marine army can include a versatile range of minis. Could this also see it's potence greatly increased in competitions that penalise repeated unit choices?

Does the elite nature and survivability of the basic units allows for greater degree of 'cushioning', eg: a long fang unit of SWs is still a unit of marines and thereby still relatively useful in H2H combat enabling and cushioning against mistakes on the player's part or sneaky manoeuvring of the opposing player to pull a shooting unit into H2H or a melee unit into open ground firefights?

If we therefore look at the marines and variants, are we therefore looking at a 2-tier game of 40k, with those doing well with other codices playing a 'harder' game of army list composition and actually tactical gaming?

Are Marines just more forgiving to play?







**I reiterate, I am not flaming marine players of any denomination and would appreciate their feedback as well as those who play other armies and especially those who play both marine and non marine.

I'd say that Space Marines/Imperial Guard are the most forgiving, but any noob can get their butt handed to them if they don't play well no matter what their army is.

I'd say that Guard is probably more forgiving...
Though i suspect it depends on what list you play.

For newbies the humble Tactical Squad is probably the most forgiving unit. Using it alone it can literally do anything you want, giving them flex room in case they suddenly realise what's a priority target and need an adequet weapon for it. Marines also dont have much in the way of whacky rules in their basic units, at least not Vanilla (Space Wolves and BAs though are different, and let's not get started about Grey Knights and Chaos) and do have some exotic choices for branching out.

Orks are also remarkably easy to use. Mostly because their tactics are quite simple, and yet effective, against most armies.

I would say space marines are generally noob friendly (depending on the codex and list) but hard to master. Having less bodies and less tools means you are far more reliant on average dice rolls.

Guard and orks are probably the most noob friendly armies as they can afford to lose a few more guys and afford to miss with a few more weapons because they have a lot more on the table.

space marines (obviously) benefit from a very comforting stat line.

ws4, bs4, s4, bs4, i4 and an s4 rapid fire gun. They also have a solid 3+ armor save, and other tricks up their sleeves such as special and heavy weapons, etc.

On a model per model basis, space marines are very forgiving.

The basic squad is fairly durable, and has fairly good shooting, and is fairly capable in close combat. This is what makes them a very friendly army for newer players. In many cases they can hide behind the statline. The 3+ save makes cover less crucial for marine players, and their stats + armor saves make them somewhat able to hold their own if they get charged- especially if there is a power fist in there.

Their points cost are cheap enough that you dont mind loosing one or two marines in a squad, but their stats makes sure that it wont happen that often.

I think ATSKNF makes Marines very friendly to the newer players as well.

Orks are easier. Some builds, anyway, especially the Kan Wall.

Herpderp...all ahead full durp.

I agree that marines are overall a very forgiving set of armies to play. Of particular note is the versatility each marine unit brings to the table compared to say, Eldar Aspect warriors. Where a unit of Dire Avengers is only good for shooting, a unit of Tactical Marines is still capable of holding its own in melee against other shooting units.

Granted, while some SM armies are less forgiving, they still have a strong ability to recover from tactical errors in a way that many other armies cannot. For example, while Grey Knights are much riskier (less models at higher cost for ~ equal survivability), they still have all the benefits of 3+ armor, power weapons, and good shooting. In essence, they have the survivability and teeth to be a threat even if you don't use them to their full potential. This is pretty common to all the SM lists.

Of course, that doesn't mean non-SM are always screwed. Good players will capitalize on your mistakes as much as possible, meaning that although your army isn't facing immediate loss due to a single error, you're probably still in trouble. This is different compared to an army like Daemons or Eldar, where the loss of key units and/or the loss of units at the wrong time can be easily game breaking.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. I also agree that Orks are possibly easier to use, but only because they have such huge unit redundancy. Orks forgive because you always have multiple units in each role. Marines forgive because each unit can fulfill multiple roles.

So, is the learning curve far lower and thereby mastering and winning with them is that much easier?

I would have to agree that SM/IG are the main armies for newer players. They are the most forgiving and have great backups. The fact that even if you do mess up and get an assault on you when you dont want it, generally means that you are going to survive do to armor saves and your WS. And with IG, similar to orks, there are so many models on the table that you have backup for them.

The easiest way to describe it is the following:

Spaz marines can make far more mistakes than eldar on the battlefield.

Spaz marines are versitile, eldar (for example) aren't

Spaz marines can do ranged and melee combat well, while say tau only do ranged and many army variants only do melee

I can only refer to the Vanilla codex but I'm sure others fit into this category too when I say that Marines are indeed easier to play than other armies. You need simply look at their stats and you will see that there is hardly any variation between other models. Only a handful have different stats such as the Space Marine bikes having toughness 4(5) instead of 4.

The only slightly complicated parts of the Marine codex is with the special rules for HQ characters or certain specific units like the thunderfire cannon or LOTD rules.

maybe, but damn are they complicated to paint.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, is the learning curve far lower and thereby mastering and winning with them is that much easier?

I don't think so. I'd say that it's harder to lose as Space Marines, given the same kinds of mistakes compared to another army. However, skilled players will cut apart space marines the same as anyone else, it just takes a bit longer before the space marine player no longer has a chance. In that way, Space Marines are easier to play because players get a "buffer zone" in terms of momentum; a space marine player can turn a game around later than most other armies, assuming some more or less standard conditions.

So rather than "easier to win with Space Marines" I'd go with "harder to lose with space marines." There's a subtle difference there.

Space Marines...are...and I'm not taking this out of consideration...A super army...WHY???....cause there superb at shooting...6/10 for close combat, and 8/10 for things in between shooting and close combat. the 2nd easiest to ues is guard, lots of men, and lots of shooting, how can you lose. that brings me on to the 3rd easiest, Orks, cause in a good 1500 pts list, you can 180 Men and Ghaz, rush, some orks die, you win

I don't think the C:SM has nearly as many easy-option powerarmy builds as many non-marine books, or the divergent chapter books. They used to be superior to Dark Angels but a FAQ brought the boys in green up to speed and made them superior too.

Unless it is a particularly dense new player who doesn't want to exploit an army's strong points as best as possible, most new players I have met look for the best easy-win powerbuilt spam-the-great-stuff army to play. In that, I don't think C:SM is very good at all. They are tough against anything but they are not really a power build waiting to happen and don't think its fair to put them in the same category as other marine Codex.

They are forgiving because of nice stats and a good save and ATSKNF, but they aren't particularly huge on the offense side of the game. This makes them average seeming to me, and a true new player would do a lot better with a wad of charging melta blasting grey hunters in razorbacks led by Njal for an every turn game breaker always-on power - than trying to figure the splitting of okay-at-everything-good-at-nothing tactical squads led by mediocre Tigurius.

In my opinion C:SM is outclassed for the hardass army build by most other chapters as well as Orks, IG, Dark Eldar. Their troops slots suck, and their special units are not really as special as some armies troop units. They can't do anything poorly, they can do a bit of everything, but they can't really do anything very well either - just like their tactical squads.

As a player with a Space Marine army (Chaos marines) who has played against every marine army on multiple occaisions, yes, SM's in general are easy to play. They are at least somewhat competent at everything, they have much higher failure mitigation as a whole than most other armies, and are generally designed (especially the newer SM books) such that they can overfocus in one area (be it CC or shooting) and still not be at a critical disadvantage in the other.

They can fight decently in assaults, they can shoot well, and even the armies that are presented as being highly preferential of CC (i.e. all SM armies but C:SM and C: DA) they still have extensive and significant ranged firepower components, often some of the most effective and cost efficient in the game (being able to field 6 Fast predators, Long Fangs, etc).

That doesn't mean they necessarily are *better* assuming two highly skilled and experienced generals relative to non-SM 5E armies (though yeah, it's hard to argue that they aren't clearly better than some armies), but with inexperienced-mediocre players, SM's are generally much easier to play.

Marines are not the MOST noob friendly army IMHO.

If a body hits the floor from the marines, it costs them quite dearly and tactically, you have to actually be able to seize initiative.

space orcs are quite easy to use, come in big mobs with the ability to reroll LD tests (bosspole), and are devastating in both close combat and shooting (i've lost a whole tactical squad from ork firepower). tactically.....what tactics lawl!

Imperial guard fall into this order as well, but it is quite complex at the top end gaming with orders, tank squadrons etc.

Most other armies are not really noob friendly, except one would argue the crons and simply because of their res.

So. The most noob friendly army. The orks. And my GW staffers agree with me, foisting orks onto the new gamers instead of marines.

I think that Space marines are pretty much the easiest to learn and easiest to play, but not necessarily the easiest to master. Orks are also easier to learn, and additionally, not that hard to master.

Space Marines are IMO incredibly forgiving, as its been said. But when used by someone with alot of experience, they can be devastating. With that being said, almost any army can be devastating, given the right circumstances. I believe someone can get to that point faster with SM. Similar builds work very well against multiple opponents. In non-SM armies, your build may work awesome vs. so-in-so, but lucky to get a draw vs. not so-in-so, and it will take you longer to figure which is which. With SM, because of their forgiving nature, can learn and win.

I believe that they are more forgiving than other armies, to an extent. Their units are designed with versatility in mind, and versatile units in multiple gives you redundancy.

But I don't think that the "3+/3++ saves carry space marine players!" has much merit to it. In a list where you don't have a way to deal with ANY heavy infantry/transports/MCs opposing you, yes, it can. And in this case it SHOULD. It -Should- carry the space marine player every bit as much as a player should get rolled if he is outnumbered 50 to one and has no real multi-hit weaponry. Or the guy with nothing over S5 in his list trying to fight a leman russ gunline.

With the amount of plasma, melta, long range AT, power weapons (particularly of the multi attack and higher than I4 variety) or attacks that manage to wound either on 2+ or 4+ and come with a lot of attempts that float around in well over 50% of the lists i am seeing for any given army...No. I'd say sticking your 200 point PF+Meltagun tactical squad on the board gets unforgiving real fast when your 10 bodies starts meeting walls of 3+ Melta or plasma shots from single squads that are cheaper. Or 20 shots that are 4+ poisoned (Hi cheap dark eldar poison shooting!). Or a single well placed battle cannon round (I know, I know "2 inch coherency!"...Because your AV11 rhino will NEVER die to that vendetta, nor will you ever be forced to disembark, or be lashed, or...)....

Biggest advantage with marines, as I said...is not so much durability as their versatility. I don't have to deal with "Well this squad can ONLY SHOOT and this one can ONLY ASSAULT and this one can ONLY KILL ARMOR..."... If there is a target I can out assault nearby I can charge it. If there is a squad I can shoot better than assault nearby I can shoot it. If there is armor, my meltagun can kill it, or if its at range I can sorta kill it. Stun certainly....but there are bigger dogs than mine in a given area, and if you mess up in determining which is which..You are going to pay in very pricey infantry going down very fast.

One of my favorite things about marines is that they go from easy to remember and easy to play with to challenging and outright difficult depending on your opponent so they give a lot of space to grow mentally in terms of thinking ahead, planning, and dealing with new situations. The Dark Angels, for instance, Greenwing is fairly easy with many of the same bonuses and drawbacks as standard marines. Once having a good grip of that and being ready to do something more challenging one can move on to the desperately low bodied Deathwing where every loss is a kick in the groin or the also low bodied and considerably more fragile but mobile Ravenwing. Add varying bits for other marines in similar manner. Lots of room to go from 'how far do these move?' to more complex strategems without having to shell out $300 for a new army or playing the dreaded counts as army.

As people have said, they have to be at least a bit forgiving, with 3+ armour, because their model count is a good deal lower than an equivalent.

I find that marines are easy to start out with but once you reach a high standard of play they become incredibly hard. Everyone who frequents tournaments knows how to kill marines. Marines also have few surprises, very little fancy wargear or complicated special rules. Everyone knows exactly what your army is going to do when they take one look at it.

Early on marines are great, they're forgiving, they're simple, they're hard but later, with some notable exceptions, you're pushing gak up hill.

Space Marines are genrally a noob army thats why GW uses them in the starter boxes. But no matter what list you use unless you have mastered them you can just as easily get owned.