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First, sorry for the mega wall of text.


Hey guys, i need some help here, and Dakka seem an intelligent bunch, so I have to ask. This is abit of a desperation thing because i don't know how to handle it.

Basically, its getting really unpleasant for me at my FGS. Heres the story.

I started playing Magic the Gathering about 5 years ago, and i found this FGS doing tournaments and have been going ever since. I'm very good friends with the Sunday store clerck (who is actually a member here on Dak Dak) and they recently started Warhammer 40k games there (not official or anything like that) And theres the first problem. I'm a new player (still getting an army together) and for me, the joy of the hobby is modelling. Now, I decided when I first decided to play 40k, i decided for myself, i would never field an unpainted model. I find the attitude of the players there (and the guy running the 40k) particularly off-putting.

Theres the guy (Who was my first ever opponent when i borrowed an army) who Blatantly bends the rules or outright breaks them. He's a WAAC player. And some of them put the most minimal effort in their models, like theres a SW player (hes 14) who has TWC on chaos knights horses, with the iconography on, unpainted, and using Ork biker legs as the legs to the space marine. I understand that TWC isnt the easiset model to make, i dont mind they are on horses, but whenever i look at the models, my first though was "He doesnt care about the models" and my second thought is about how i would not want to play against him with those models. theres a guy with models so thickly basecoated (with no coloured paint) that they don't have any detail

The other problem i have, is im being pressured into rushing my models (which i don't want to do at all, i want to put as much care into them as possible) so i can start playing. The guy running the 40k tells me "they don't have to be painted, they don't have to be WYSIWYG, they dont even have to be fully assembled." This attitude is really bugging me. I'm taking effort to make my guys WYSIWYG. He's pressuring me to rush so that i can start playing. Every week he tells me "Bring an army, it doesnt have to be painted." etc, you get the idea.

Then theres the guy who is just... urgh. He's supposedly my friend, too. Today he blatantly insulted my MTG skills (I'm sure you don't want me to get into that) and then, later, me, the store clerks and him got into a debate about politics, about fascism vs democracy and various other things, and I enjoy this kind of thing. I love politics. He turns to me and said "You don't understand this so you should just shut up." His general attitude is "I'm better than you, and my opinion is the only one that matters" and it seems he tries to put my down every opportunity. This guy who i supposedly my friend (sometimes, he can be really cool. he taught me the basics of 40k, like painting and basic GS skills and such)

Ive been going to this store for about 5 years now, and i buy 90% of my 40K supplies there. So i kind of don't want to suddenly leave, because i have friends there that i like to hang out with.

Now, Is the problem with me? Am i overreacting about this? Should i try finding a new FGS? (theres a Warhammer centric one about the same distance in the other direction from my house.) or should i just tough it out and hope it gets better?

I honestly feel like I'm at the end of my rope with this.

Again, sorry for wall of text, but I feel i need some advice here.

Well, I'd at least check out the other shop, but perhaps that's just me. It doesn't sound like you terribly appreciate the environment at the store you're going to.

If he's pressuring you, tell him to get lost and that it's your hobby, and you'll do it how you please. Ask him if he wants other people telling him what to do with his models.

This guy sounds like he is a pretty big dick and has no respect for you in any regard, so be a dick back to him. Doesn't mean you can't be friends, just have to stand up for yourself.

Ultimately, it's your hobby, and you should do whatever the hell you get the most enjoyment out of. If that means you don't play until you can field an army of lovingly converted, Golden Daemon winning models, so be it. It can't hurt to try another FLGS, especially if you're not enjoying yourself at your current one.

Sounds like you have a bunch of douchebags in an otherwise solid-sounding store.

If your 'friend' keeps undermining you and knocking you down, then he can't be that good a friend whether or not he is your 40K Yoda. You either have a choice to reconcile your differences or accept that his personality flaws, but I'm afraid that's something you have to decide for yourself.

As for the WYSIWIG thing, I suppose I can appreciate why they don't enforce it so much, if people are playing and coming to the store, they are buying more stuff not sat at home painting.

I know it's annoying, but unfortunately the painting and modelling aspect of the hobby is just as optional as the gaming aspect, and some people just don't want to/cannot put the effort in, but don't let it deter you from your own hard work and effort, just remember that even if they have unpainted mish-mashes of units, you have a shiny force of immaculate soldiers that pleases you no end. Don't be pushed into using models if you don't feel comfortable using them unpainted. Personally I do it all the time, mainly because I don't have much time to paint, but I'm afraid despite your annoyance you may have to accept it if you want to continue playing there.

Perhaps you could check out the other place, see what it's like before you decide to move to new stomping grounds, go once or twice and try it out before making a major change?

I would definitely check out the environment for 40k at the other store at the very least. For all you know, the 40k players at the store you frequent could be the rejects from the other location. The worst that can happen is you waste a bit of gas and learn that the other store is just as bad or worse than your current store. So with a very minor thing to potentially lose (a couple bucks worth of gas) and a bunch to possibly gain, give it a shot, see how active the store is for players, see how dedicated to the hobby the players are there, and see if you can get a game or two, or at least find out when they are playing so you can watch some games and see how the players there are.

It sounds like you are being slightly overly sensitive

the guy rushing you probably just wants you to get your own army and get involved
As for the kid with the chaos thunderwolves, it is annoying but afterall it is a kid so you need to make allowances. If it was a 17+ year old with that Id be wtf a bit.

the last bit just sounds like someone being a bellend though I totally agree there!!
you should definately stand your ground to this person because basically hes just a psuedo-intellectual trying to score cheap ego-points!

I would talk to the store owner and see what his opinion is on people showcasing 40k in his store in such a way is and what the owner would prefer. I suspect you would find he would prefer painted models because it increases sales and grows customers... but he may be being bullied by entitled local gamers who probably monopolize more space than their money output justifies.

Just because they are being selfish and inconsiderate of the store that plays host to the gaming circle doesn't mean you have to which is why it is perfectly acceptable to take your time especially if it is what the owner would prefer. And possibly mention that you would support times which required higher standards and maybe if he noticed a majority of his paying customer base had similar feelings he might move the unpainted stuff to a club night instead. You are a paying customer and your wants and needs are no more or less valid.

I would check out other stores as well. It is not 'traitorous' to frequent multiple locations or stores. It is your money and time, best for you to game with like-minded people in a location that you enjoy with standards you are happy with. Often many stores will have multiple gaming times where one day is for WYSIWYG events and another is for so-called 'friendly' games where people can use half an ork model as a space marine. If you know the times at the stores, you can attend when it meets your needs.

hanks for reading and the suggestions guys.

I honestly dont think the people are being selfish, its just they are pressuring me into starting, and im really not prepared to start. I go to the store now and sit and paint or assemble minis. Its fun to do it there, with the two way more experienced players who can help me (one of them built the daemon weapon for my lord, and told me how to work on small scale). but the fact im told Every week to "hurry up so you can play" or something similar is getting too much.


Ill definately check out the other store. its an actual Warhammer store, so i may have better luck

"nods" can be pretty annoying. Ultimately you should do what YOU want to do. They can all get stuffed, its not your job its your hobby!!

Also, bear in mind, this is my view on the situation, so it IS one-sided.

Long and short:

-Call people on rules if they break them, but make sure you know what you're talking about.
-Take your time with your army, ignore people want you to hurry up. Not their models.
-Just stay out of political discussions. If you enter into one, it's your own fault, and not part of why you go to a gaming store.)
-Ditto on religion.
-Probably should skip discussing MTG while focussing on 40k, it'll just rot your brain and suddenly you'll be talking about the polital and regious significance of a netdecking vs. EDH and you'll never roll dice again.
-Putting up with crappy TWC is just something that you have to endure in some stores.

I think you should just ask the guy who is pressuring you to stop in a polite manner. I have found that when I use a bit of hostility, then the person bugging me will just do it more, so its best to just take it calmly and ask politely. If he still doesn't stop, then try out the other store and see if its better there.

I also enjoy bellying up to the painting table. I find it is just as social as gaming. So if you enjoy painting at the store, don't let people give you crap.

Obsidian Raven wrote:hanks for reading and the suggestions guys.

I honestly dont think the people are being selfish, its just they are pressuring me into starting, and im really not prepared to start. I go to the store now and sit and paint or assemble minis. Its fun to do it there, with the two way more experienced players who can help me (one of them built the daemon weapon for my lord, and told me how to work on small scale). but the fact im told Every week to "hurry up so you can play" or something similar is getting too much.


Ill definately check out the other store. its an actual Warhammer store, so i may have better luck

As to getting your own army on the field, and not wanting to do so unless they are painted. Yes, grey hordes of death do stink. One thing you can do however is assemble your army, get it primed, and then do a very basic paint job on them, that way they are 'officially' painted, at least to tournament standards. Once that is done, you can start playing, then, as time permits when you are not playing, work on the models to bring them up to a painting level that you are happy with for your army. Unless someone is picking up your models and inspecting them, they will look at least decent from 3-5 feet away.

Mikhaila pretty much summed it up.

As for the Models/Unpainted Gak - I have the same opinion - I hate 'proxy' stuff, unpainted and/or 'counts as' (Unless it's well done). It's your cash, your Hobby, and when you have finished realising that, any pressure to do what others want you to do pretty much dissapaites.

And, the look of derision on your face when the WAAC player fronts up with his poorly painted/crap cheating army is one you will have to practice in the mirror until you get it right....

Play MTG at the first store, and play 40k at the GW store? It seems to me that you have been a loyal customer to the first store, and that you have lots of fond memories there, and want to continue to frequent this store. However, the local 40k scene there is completely at ends with your playstyle and mantra. Therefore, find somewhere else to play 40k, but you can still go back to the first store.

You don't have to be exclusive with one store, you can frequent both.

As for the guy suggesting you bring down your army in whatever condition, well, he sounds like a good chap who's encouraging you to join in and play, without worrying about the state of your army.

Far better that than telling you to rush it or that you can't play until it's finished. He's just trying to let you be involved.

Keep in mind that it's okay to play a casual game or two with unfinished models. I think your friend is just trying to get you involved in the local scene.

Within the broad field of wargaming there are different types of people, and some err towards a certain aspect of their hobby because it's what they cashed in for! Many people genuinely don't care to paint their models, but they can still be great gamers.

If the local gaming group consists of more dedicated gamers than all-round hobbyists (at least in your perspective) then you'll probably just have to suck it up. They want to play games, and they might not play the same way as you do!

I'm quite a big fan of fielding a personalised and characterful army, but fortunately I also love playing against very competitive players. I find some individual gamers distasteful not because they may not know the rules as well as I do, but rather because they lack sportsmanship either way - that's my little gripe. I'm foremost a hobbyist and I play because the games are fun, but I judge an opponent on how they play rather than how they paint when I'm on the tabletop. I'm lucky enough to be able to almost always get casual games. I usually won't grind an army out for a campaign/tournament because I like to put more time and effort in.

'Bad players' who break rules or are sloppy/complacent with rubber-rulers and the like are easily dealt with - don't play against them. In a tournament you civilly ask them to play by the rules or get the organiser involved. I actually genuinely enjoy losing games - sometimes even more than winning - if I have a good opponent, and I do my best to make sure they're having a good experience too.

It may be that you need to look a little further to find the best hobby group for you, but good luck either way!

Find the guys in your group on the same wavelength as you in regards to painting/modelling and pal around with them. Play a few low point games against them with your painted troops. Gradually, it'll build up to a ridiculous amount of stuff over time. I'm sitting on about 30,000 points of Chaos for WFB, which started out as a Chaos Warband in 1990. Maybe put up a flyer for a painting night or a call out to other hobbyists. Make it crystal clear that it is a painting centric/modelling centric/craft centric exercise.

There are people in every group who just slap whatever down. They're enjoying the hobby too, but just on a different level. They don't paint anything, or very rarely. They always claim they can't paint. They have no time. Basically, they're impatient. You'll notice they switch armies a lot too. These guys are great to talk to as you can usually buy a lot of second hand stuff off of them on the cheap. They go through models like underpants. Maybe that isn't a good simile for gamers...they go through models like snack food.

There is always TFG the cheater. In my time I've seen loaded dice (always 5s), a custom tape measure where 24 inches was actually 25 and 1/2 inches along with the other shenanigans typical of TFG. Regardless of consequences they cheat to win. Playing the game isn't important, winning is. And if you have to cheat at a game of Warhammer you are fething sad. I know a lot of people outside of the hobby mockingly say 'Get a life', but TFG seriously needs to take a step back and think about how petty and lame they are. Eventually, no one will play them and he'll get drummed out of the club or if the club is 'his', people will leave and form their own club.

Noone here has told you the obvious...

Most of the guys you say are your "Friends" from that shop there as described are TFG's in disguise.

For one, half of the cases here described- Describe an exact clone in others that all local stores all have. We call them TFG's, and these are quite frankly the last people that others want to even associate with, and play as a last result, or if paired up randomly in a torny. Even in a tourny, you're going to end up calling them on half of thier BS, and probibly going to end up with a judge standing over them, the rest.

For another, YOU sound like your young, and I'm gathering that you weren't warned about these kinds of cats when you started in on Hobbying/ Gaming.
YOU are going to have to grow a thicker skin, in playing in hobby shops, especially if you are going to determine that your going to stay in one particular one. One way is to play only a small crew of players that you want to play with. Generally these are going to be the guys that are pleasent to play, give you a good game, you click with, have a good ethic, and are intolerant of TFGisms that generally make gaming more of a chore then it has to be. Can be buddies, someone totally out of the spectrum, or just general serious players in general.

You are going to have to throw the BS flag on TFG#1's play, when he blatently breaks, bends, or skewers rules. He's a douche of the first degree. You play him, expect him to be the WAAC, even when he starts in on his generic TFG system of crying about rules, fudging rolls, inching moves, chipmunking, etc.etc.etc. ( remember what I said, EVERY store has one or two of these.) How to deal with him is to give him !@#$ when they break rules, or don't know what they are talking about. Excommunicate him, or even just generally cut them off from gaming, for the said reasons, and don't be afraid to step on his junk over it.

As for the shop philospher, tell him hes full of !@#$ and start spouting off your thesis on Western colonialism and its benifit on third world economic systems, or spout off the benefits of the french revolution to him, and its repercussions on todays economic.... Blah Blah Blah... Seriously?
You just don't talk about some things in public... It's just that simple. WHY? Because no one is right, and everyone is an expert. 1 Politics, 2. Religion, 3. Sex.
Especially with TFG #2, the shop philospher.

And the guy with the mixed bag of army, you can bust his balls, or you can take him aside and actually find out if he is actually KNOWING what he's doing, or if he's just kitbashing WTF ever and doesn't have an actual unit of what he's making for whatever army he's got there. Easiest way to start him out on his road to redemption is to outright ask him, "Hey, whats up with those guys there? Not trying to be a jerk, but, WTF?" ( The Grotster is a hard, cruel !@#$, so use your words, don't use mine.) Generally your going to find out that he doesn't have the guys he wants to play, so hes kitbashing some for the unit in question. ( Or else he's young and dumb and doesn't know what he's doing.) Then when you find out that he needs a extra set of legs, or a head or mount, you give him one or trade him, no questions asked, or with a minimal amount of ball busting.

And finally, in short, YOU are the yardstick in which your going to have to measure your companies. YOU can hang around with some jagoffs, tolerate them, just to say, "Yeah, I hang around a game store, these... friends... are quite a crowd, I've got enemies I like better."

Or go over to the "Other " store, find yourself a different situation, hopefully a better one.

Or go with three. Get a couple of real friends, or some other guys that you can get together with and play with. Either at the shops, or at another place, like a library, or someones place. You end up developing your own crew, and you all generally grow your group by general consensous to the point where TFG's arn't tolerated by all after one or tow infractions, and if they are tolerated, its because of a very good reason. Either they KNOW something like how to paint, model, or play a particular game, or they are not generally TFG, just act like it in certian curcumstances. Generally, though, theres a reason why your crowd gells, and it generally has to do with you all gaming a good game, or similar, and of similar likes and dislikes. YOU all then fit together, then can start in on said political discussions or wtf ever after you've all earned your chops after a few good scraps, some warstories, and collective playing.




These other guys here aslo have some great advice, and they know what they are talking about, but I'm a mean, nasty, and cruel curmudgion, so I'll tell you the dirty unvarnished truth of it.

I hope you don't put up with too many TFG's, and that these tools are the ones that have been excomunicated from a real store.

Stay thirsty, my friend.

Generally speaking I think you've pointed out several legit criticisms of your current game store. However, I'm generally of the belief that it's none of your business how the other guys in your meta choose to paint (or not paint) their armies as much as it's not their business how you choose to paint yours. Modelling and gaming do have a huge potential for overlap in wargaming, but they should never be confused as being synonymous.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent
.....Eleanor Roosevelt

Ugh, this sounds alot like my FLGS. People like that are everywhere, just avoid them, if somebody is being a TFG just dont play them.

Games stores are NOT like girlfriends.

You don't have to be exclusive to them.

You can keep your games discreet to a certain store, certainly playing one game at one, and another at a different store.

If the 40k crowd at a local store were acting like dicks then I certainly wouldn't want to play there (any game). This is probably why I don't game at a store, though. Too many incidences of "See dick play".

Tell the guy who is trying to get you play, that you would like to finish painting your army first
Tell the kid why is his Horse have chaos icons and xenos leg
Abandon the other guy

have a look see at the other store

I took a look at the other FGS today (sadly niether of them are really local. a 20 minute drive to the new one, a 45 minute drive to the old one) and its pretty cool. they are very focused on the gameplay of the hobby, but I'm OK with that. Its the environment i expected. the people are friendly and helpfull, and ill see what its like

Obsidian Raven wrote:First, sorry for the mega wall of text.


Hey guys, i need some help here, and Dakka seem an intelligent bunch, so I have to ask. This is abit of a desperation thing because i don't know how to handle it.

Basically, its getting really unpleasant for me at my FGS. Heres the story.

I started playing Magic the Gathering about 5 years ago, and i found this FGS doing tournaments and have been going ever since. I'm very good friends with the Sunday store clerck (who is actually a member here on Dak Dak) and they recently started Warhammer 40k games there (not official or anything like that) And theres the first problem. I'm a new player (still getting an army together) and for me, the joy of the hobby is modelling. Now, I decided when I first decided to play 40k, i decided for myself, i would never field an unpainted model. I find the attitude of the players there (and the guy running the 40k) particularly off-putting.

Theres the guy (Who was my first ever opponent when i borrowed an army) who Blatantly bends the rules or outright breaks them. He's a WAAC player. And some of them put the most minimal effort in their models, like theres a SW player (hes 14) who has TWC on chaos knights horses, with the iconography on, unpainted, and using Ork biker legs as the legs to the space marine. I understand that TWC isnt the easiset model to make, i dont mind they are on horses, but whenever i look at the models, my first though was "He doesnt care about the models" and my second thought is about how i would not want to play against him with those models. theres a guy with models so thickly basecoated (with no coloured paint) that they don't have any detail

The other problem i have, is im being pressured into rushing my models (which i don't want to do at all, i want to put as much care into them as possible) so i can start playing. The guy running the 40k tells me "they don't have to be painted, they don't have to be WYSIWYG, they dont even have to be fully assembled." This attitude is really bugging me. I'm taking effort to make my guys WYSIWYG. He's pressuring me to rush so that i can start playing. Every week he tells me "Bring an army, it doesnt have to be painted." etc, you get the idea.

Then theres the guy who is just... urgh. He's supposedly my friend, too. Today he blatantly insulted my MTG skills (I'm sure you don't want me to get into that) and then, later, me, the store clerks and him got into a debate about politics, about fascism vs democracy and various other things, and I enjoy this kind of thing. I love politics. He turns to me and said "You don't understand this so you should just shut up." His general attitude is "I'm better than you, and my opinion is the only one that matters" and it seems he tries to put my down every opportunity. This guy who i supposedly my friend (sometimes, he can be really cool. he taught me the basics of 40k, like painting and basic GS skills and such)

Ive been going to this store for about 5 years now, and i buy 90% of my 40K supplies there. So i kind of don't want to suddenly leave, because i have friends there that i like to hang out with.

Now, Is the problem with me? Am i overreacting about this? Should i try finding a new FGS? (theres a Warhammer centric one about the same distance in the other direction from my house.) or should i just tough it out and hope it gets better?

I honestly feel like I'm at the end of my rope with this.

Again, sorry for wall of text, but I feel i need some advice here.

Adult reaction: When people try to pressure you ON YOUR LEISURE ACTIVITY point at them and laugh, just laugh.
The Texas way: Geta shotgun, a rifle, and a four wheel drive. You'll know what to do.
Frazzled reaction: get yourself 100 - 200 weiner dogs, 10 lbs of beef, and a vehicle. Get out at said store. Throw the beef into the store and hold the door open as the 100 - 200 weiner dogs fly in after it. Quickly back the vehicle up to the doors so people cannot escape. Watch the antics as the weiner dogs go land piranha on all meat sources inside said store. Afterwards use the remains to write "Thats what you GET!" on the door.

It's your hobby you do it the way you want to. The models are expensive and if you want to put care into assembly and painting then do it. Be your own person. If you're being pressured to do something you have the choice to ignore it. It seems like you have a great prospect on the hobby by not wanting to field unpainted models, don't let peer pressure strip you of that less you'll be the one running gakky TWC.

It really sounds like you are trying to keep yourself in a situation where your fundamental approach to the game is different... If these guys won't ever respect the models and the spirit of the game like you do, it doesn't seem like there will be a solution to the problem.

If you can't get away from these people I would imagine it will always be contentious. If you can get away from those guys (i.e. going in on a different day) maybe you can just isolate the people you want to play with.

It sounds like you're handing it very well and being very respectful, which is very admirable. Don't change that for anything!