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See lists below.... Initial post is now irrelevant.

Ok, I would say Fatecrusher is better at higher points. 2000, 1750P and the like.

I would say Chariot's of Tzeentch works best at 1000P
Also If determined to do fatecrusher I would say scrounge 5P and cough up the changeling. He will put a bottleneck on most oppenents shooting.

As before if determined with Fatecrusher list I would keep the Crusher's together that way less KP and more killling power. Not a fan of taking Soul Grinders to many melta weapons. I would drop for a DP of Nurgle, soaking up the firepower.

Expanding this to 1500, I would play something like:

[HQ]
Fateweaver

[Elites]
4x Bloodcrusher
Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instruments of Chaos

4x Bloodcrusher
Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instruments of Chaos

[Troops]
7x Pink Horrors
Bolt of Tzeench

10x Bloodletters of Khorne
Fury of Khorne

7x Daemonettes of Slaanesh

[Heavy Support]
Soulgrinder of Chaos
Mawcannon: Phlegm

Daemon Prince
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch


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InquisitorVaron wrote:Ok, I would say Fatecrusher is better at higher points. 2000, 1750P and the like.

I would say Chariot's of Tzeentch works best at 1000P
Also If determined to do fatecrusher I would say scrounge 5P and cough up the changeling. He will put a bottleneck on most oppenents shooting.

As before if determined with Fatecrusher list I would keep the Crusher's together that way less KP and more killling power. Not a fan of taking Soul Grinders to many melta weapons. I would drop for a DP of Nurgle, soaking up the firepower.

Well. I already own Fateweaver... and this isn't going to stay 1000 points for very long. I suppose I was more looking for... "Where to grow". I know I want to go to two squads of 4 Crushers, with all three upgrades (for wound allocation).

A daemon prince that I will convert/paint up Nurgle style is in the works, and is included in my prospective 1500 point list.

Get the changeling.
If your keeping the Soulgrinder for LR/MEQ duties you need to be sly. Personally I think another DP with MoN would soak up more firepower (And dish more out).

Blood letters/Crushers will kill MEQ's easy. DP with MoN can kill LR's so IMO you don't need the Soul Grinder.

Not seeing why the Daemonettes are there. 5 Plaguebearers would be better. You need to capture some OBJ.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it's not staying 1k Points for very long don't post as 1k. This list isn't viable at 1k points.

So it's 1500P list post it as that. Anyway my post before that explained what I thought of the 1500P list.

Okay so a revised 1500 point list, taking into account what you mentioned... this is what I've got.

Do I have too many points in my Daemon Princes? Should I ditch the wings and just deepstrike them?

If so.... that would free up 120 points. Suggestions on how to spend? Beef the Bloodletters back up? More pink horrors?

[HQ]
Fateweaver

[Elites]
4x Bloodcrusher
Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instruments of Chaos

4x Bloodcrusher
Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instruments of Chaos

[Troops]
7x Pink Horrors
Bolt of Tzeench
1x The Changeling

6x Bloodletters of Khorne
Fury of Khorne

5x Plaguebearers

[Heavy Support]
Daemon Prince
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch

Daemon Prince
MoN, Wings, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch

Drop the wings and beef up the Bloodletters. If possible get more.

Whelp. If I drop the wings on one MoN Demon Prince, I can bump the Blood Letters to 9 from 6.

I can then change the second Demon Prince to MoK, Iron Hide, Wings, Unholy Might, Blessings of the Blood God.

That way, the MoK Wing Prince + Fate Weaver + 1 unit of Blood Crushers can be my "deployed on the table" units... the MoN wing-less Prince + 2nd set of Blood Crushers Deepstrike in to support tough objectives/castling. The rest of the troops just deepstrike in and take objectives, or support the Fateweaver + MoK Prince + Bloodcrushers deathstar.

Hows that sound?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, I have a very Khorny Prince on his way (aqquired through swap shop) that would fit this bill perfectly. Thoughts?

TBH I don't think you need the bloodletters at all,

You could drop them and make the horror squad only 5 man and then do something good with the left over points like another squad of plague bearers so that you can capture objectives efficient.

Also if you run 6 bloodletters think about how fast they will die. if I would have the choice between shooting 6 bloodletters or 4 crushers I would go for the letters.

I don't know why you guys pick the DP over the soulgrinder... here's why:

Soul Grinder: This guy costs out at the price of an Ironclad and is pretty comparable stats-wise, only you could say he comes with his own built-in drop pod. AV 13 is pretty much out of reach for missile launchers and the like, so his biggest fear is the meltagun and the occasional lascannon. The way meltaguns work vs Grinder is usually a win win for you. A grinder at worst costs 160pts, a tactical squad being about the same (and I've eaten entire termie squads with my 1 soulgrnder model), more with transport and upgrades. There is only a 2/3 chance they will pop you with that gun. Being within 6" of a Grinder means that unit will die, Grinders can easily pop transports and eat through them with ease. Even if the Grinder dies, they will probably be within assault range of some other unit which will mop them up with equal ease in the assault phase. The other biggest boon is that this guy is crazy quick for something that strong with fleet, and doesn't ever get bogged down with Shaken or Stunned results.

Run naked he's got what basically amounts to heavy flamer Maw Cannon profile and an assault 6 bolter, not great but able to mow through light infantry with ease. He has access to two additional Maw Cannon shots, Tongue and Phlegm. Tongue being an S10 AP1 gun could easily handle armor, but it's shots at BS 3 meaning that in a 6 turn game you'll only average 3 shots. While you might think that something like Tongue might be necessary in an army that struggle against tanks consider this: Phlegm still boasts a decent S8 that can still pop most armor and its a blast weapon so with the higher numbers of models on the table these days and all the bunching that occurs you're still likely to hit something even if you "miss". On the plus side it helps demons deal with hordes, which even for being the elite assault in 40k still poses a problem for most demons players. Really the only armor values that should make a demon player sweat are AV14 and then your first priority become locking your Grinder into assault with that Land Raider rather than trying to shoot at it.


Demon Prince: Starting out with a base cost of 80pts he comes with nothing but his less than awesome profile. In order to come close to the mobility that the Grinder has he can buy wings, for 60pts??? Without some kind of additional protection he can easily die to light arms fire and this comes in three forms: Iron Hide which is just power armor, MoN giving him T6 or Mark of Tzeentch giving 4++. Ideally he needs a combination of the two already making his cost on par with a Soul Grinder.

Without a MoT he can't do a thing to a tank except beating it with his sword in assault . With a MoT you can buy bolt, but the price is so steep and its still only S8 even if it is BS 5 and AP1. Sure you can buy Gaze and Breath but those come in pretty pricey too. Assault wise you can beef him up, Unholy Might can get you up to S6, Cloud of Flies gives you grenades, and Noxious Touch will let you wound anything on a 2+ which can be scary. He edges out the Grinder vs infantry but against vehicles S6+2D6 isn't as reliable as S10 attacks. To even come close to the versatility of the Grinder, the DP costs lots more points.

Forgive me for pissing on what you guys have said, I just get much better results with the grinder than DP's, and this is an advice forum.

I like the MoK DP idea, go for it.

Bloodletters equal essential MEQ killers, they usually get so scared they forget everything else.

I wouldn't agree at all, the DP soaks up more firepower In my experience. Soul grinder get's ignored by bolter fire which will then rip into your troops he then could be popped fast with a Rhino suicide squad with MM, that's him gone without doing anything.

In my experience a DP can soak up more firepower he usually can get to squads fast enough and with enough wounds to reak utter vengance. Against MEQ's a DP win's everytime. DP would win in a fight against a Soul Grinder also.

DP in my experience edges it. MM suicide squads and all the anti-tank just aims at the Soul Grinder and you can kiss it goodbye. DP with MoN soaks it up and usually survives with a Inv save and his amount of Wounds.

Small arms fire may be directed his way but at least it's not at Fateweaver/Crushers. There is a time and a place for Soul Grinders put I don't think it would go with this list.

This list needs more troops.

The eternal debate between Deamon Princes and Soul Grinders. Ahhhhhh. Anyways, if you're spending all the points on something that can reroll saves, why not get something with a save(AKA deamon Princes)

Soulx wrote:This list needs more troops.

The eternal debate between Deamon Princes and Soul Grinders. Ahhhhhh. Anyways, if you're spending all the points on something that can reroll saves, why not get something with a save(AKA deamon Princes)

Exactly what I was thinking.

I think the MoK Prince + Fateweaver + Bloodcrushers + Bloodcrushers as my "Things I want turn 1" is going to be such a tremendous deathstar, that my other troops are just going to be able to Deepstrike in as they please, and nab objectives easy peasy. The Nurgle Prince provides hitting power to guarded objectives, or an extra mid-game push to the deathstar (whatever I need). Plague Bearer's Deepstrike into the home objective, or something unguarded. The Bloodletters are still troops, and can easily deepstrike in and tear an objective campy unit to shreds, and then hold it. If they ignore the deathstar and go after the troops... they're going to get tabled. Actually, the part I'm most unsure about is the Pink Horrors. The changeling is indeed nice, but I don't think I really need Tzeench Bolt that badly. I have tons of low AP, high str stuff coming from my deathstar. Anyone have any suggestions? More plaguebearers? More Bloodletters? Here's what it might look like with no horrors and extra plagues.

HQ
Fateweaver

Elites
Bloodcrushers x4 /w everything

Bloodcrushers x4 /w everything

Troops
Plaguebearers x5

Plaguebearers x5

Plaguebearers x5

Bloodletters x10

Heavy Support
Demon Prince
MoK, Wings, Unholy Might, Iron Hide, Blessings of the Blood God

Demon Prince
MoN, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies

I would say need's the horrors. Disrupting a turn or two of shooting is something you can't put a price on. I've watched a game of Daemons vs BA. Vindicator rolls up has a go fails it's LD. Daemons chose to fire at their terminators. Game over almost. All that for a 5P model.

I would put the changeling in the Death star if you could scrounge the space under that protection.

That and go for the blast markers first, fatecrusher lists, die eay to triple vindicators. Bolt them and just get rid of them.

An updated list with the changeling in would then make the perfect bloodcrusher list.

Change your DP's for 3 Tzeentch bolt princes w/o wings.
For 140 points:
You get a MC w rerollable 4++ that can pop transports / tanks - plus you get 3.

Drop the letters. For a fatecrusher list you only need 2 squads of 5 PB's for holding objectives. Thats all.

BBJ

Depends on what type of list. If your going pure Bloodcrusher then if they take out Fateweaver you lose. I prefer to have other tricks up my sleeve.

What I find with DP's with MoT is they get shot at by Small Arm's fire and die, MoN ones don't get shot by Small Arm's fire and only Anti-Tank goes for them. And with a re-rollable save and FNP (At least i think they have) they survive longer. MoK ones kill all in CC, you can't put all your eggs in fateweavers basket, you never know they might just pop him.

So I did this off the top of my head/Alice40k... and it looks rediculously good... so.. if I screwed up the points.. lemme know.

1493 [1500]
HQ
Fateweaver

Elites
Bloodcrusher x4 /w Everything

Bloodcrusher x4 /w Everything

Troops
5 Horrors of Tzeench
Bolt of Tzeench
1 Changeling

5 Plague Bearers

5 Plague Bearers

8 Bloodletters of Khorne

Heavy Support
Demon Prince
MoK, Wings, Might, Iron Hide, Blessings

Demon Prince
MoN, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Iron Hide

I don't own anything to replace the Bloodletters with. I'm thinking about getting 4x Fiends of Slaanesh to replace the Bloodletters with, and add to the Deathstar. Where the bloodcrushers are more survivable, they are waaay more killy. Plus I could stick them in the back of the deathstar to give them re-rollable 4+ cover saves, at least. Plus.. then it would be Fatecrusher Undivided and that makes me feel fluffylicious.

Although honestly I don't think the 'letters are that bad of an idea. They are a deadly troop choice, and they can take care of a lightly guarded objective on their own. Not the worst thing, strategically. I'll see what I can come up with next paycheck.

If you were dropping the Blood Letters for anything it should be more Crushers. PB's will hold out on OBJ and the Changeling should go in the Deathstar IMO since they will think twice about shooting.

MoK will hit hard so I'm guessing he will be shot loads. The MoN DP won't get shot at as much but will kill loads and tie things up well.

Liking the list a lot though. Got anti MEQ and mech and you can just wade through horde's for minamal losses. I'm loving it.

My 2 cents here:

I know you said you have nothing to replace the letters with so take this with a grain of salt. I love bletters but in this list you dont need the extra MEQ killing power. I would sub them as pink horrors or possibly a flamer suicide units. I like to drop a unit of them and just hose someone standing in the open. I find having them around will often enough inhibit my enemies movements since he is afraid of the shooting just appearing on top of him. i like the idea of feinds in the futurem, but for now maybe sub the mdeamottes to get a fleet unit with assault grenades?

Also i would suggest taking one unit of crushers in each wave for three reasons. 1) They both have icons. Might as well make sure you can utilize them. 2) two crusher units and fateweaver have a *huge* footprint. I have a real hard time deep striking them close enough to each other without mishapping them. 3) I find that by the time fateweaver and a crusher squad gets close enough to assault the enemy line, the second crusher unit will usually come in. And with the first crusher icon, then just appear almost right inside their lines.

Still a pretty good list. I would hate to come up against that on the table

I own 5 more Horrors... if I get another Changeling I could possibly field two of those disruptive squads /w a Bolt of Tzeench for transport poppy as well. I think this next paycheck I'm going to buy a second changeling, some fiends of Slaanesh, some Daemonettes and some Flamers.

This way, I have options on what to take in the Bloodletter's slot.

Expanding this to 1850... I'm thinking Bloodthirster + filling the Crusher squads out to 5 each or perhaps just 5/5/5 crushers. It's like Nidzilla... but with DEMONS!

Cottonjaw wrote:...I'm going to buy a second changeling....

Sadly the changeling is a unique named character. So you only get one.

However a support the Thirster. He is pretty much filling the roll of your DP MoK with wings, but better. Flamers are elites, so if you run those fiends or 3 packs of crushers, they are out. However if you aren't running all the elites, or are doing Apoc, they are gold. Fiends are stupidly expensive as i am sure you are aware. They work best in the max pack of 6, but that will cost a lot. So unless you know you are sure you going to use them, or you convert some from cheaper plastic models, be prepared.

More crushers is always a win imo. Daemonzilla ftw!

Dah. That's too bad. Two of them would be really nasty. I suppose I'll either stick with the bletters or daemonettes.

I don't think I would replace my MoK Prince @ 1850. I think I would just add the big guy. Just another big ugly target for them to have to choose between.