Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, so I came up with a rule to incorporate assault grenades into the game more. I think it's stupid that they only help you if you're assaulting a unit in cover. How's this?
"Units armed with assault grenades always strike first when assaulting an enemy unit (or enemy units) that are not in cover."
This would give the assaulting unit one hell of an advantage, making assaults absolutely devastating, especially to weak eldar and the like. But then, throwing grenades at an enemy is pretty devastating, imho. Especially if they're NOT in cover!

I agree that grenades seem a bit naff at the moment, but this proposed rule would lead to Orks massacring everyone. Orks are Initiative 2 for a reason, and the grenade upgrade is only one point per model.

Maybe allow assault grenades to increase Ini by +2? or grenades grant furious charge? that might be a little much though. I do definitely think grenades should do _something_ more than what they do.
what about -1 attack to the enemy to a minimum of 1 attack?

sorry, haven't been on here in a bit. hmm, I like the idea of furious charge if you have grenades. would increase your initiative and also your strength, so you attack would be more damaging (duh, you're throwing grenades!!!)

I think grenades are fine the way they are. You have the choice to use them as a weapon from time to time. It's simply an attempt to add a bit more strategy to the game. If every unit that had assault grenades went first regardless of their original initiative, then you have screwed a lot of armies out of the unique characteristics that make them good. What comes to mind immediately is Dark Eldar. The idea behind them is that, even when getting charged, their unnatural speed and skill allow them to strike first. If I could give my boyz a one point upgrade to make them go before these unnaturally fast individuals....well I think that would break the game just a bit.

And on Furious charge. Only certain units have, and can get furious charge. The game makers had it that way for a reason. The reason an ork boy is good is because he is strength 4 on the charge, not strength 4 all the time.

Granades are best they can be (now) to keep this game in some lines but if we really want to give granades something special, it would grant +1 iniative to assaulting unit.

They already do get increased initiative if the opponent is in cover.

How about assault grenades are an extra s4/5 attack per model at initiative 10? represents them throwing them into combat before the first blows are struck. Im leaning more towards strength 4 because it stops them being overpowered, but strength 5 seems more realistic as they are small explosives.

Do you really want to get ten S4 attacks that always hit first every time a guard squad charges? Remember, I can easily get six of these cheaply and combine them into one unit which has several power weapons. That would do something along the lines of more than double the assault power of Guard, whom get their grenades for free.

The Acolyte wrote:How about assault grenades are an extra s4/5 attack per model at initiative 10? represents them throwing them into combat before the first blows are struck. Im leaning more towards strength 4 because it stops them being overpowered, but strength 5 seems more realistic as they are small explosives.

Yeah, because 30 more attacks that appanently autohit are exactly what every squad of boys and gaurdsmen need.

Grenades are one of things in game that does not need changed. They are a small miniscule part that sometimes performs a very specific role. Thats all they should ever be.

Melissia wrote:Do you really want to get ten S4 attacks that always hit first every time a guard squad charges? Remember, I can easily get six of these cheaply and combine them into one unit which has several power weapons. That would do something along the lines of more than double the assault power of Guard, whom get their grenades for free.

I wasn't saying that grenades would still be free or 1pt. I meant if they were to be changed. Would be taken as like an extra weaponm upgrade per model.

Frag Grenades:

S: 3 AP: 6 Range: 12" Type: Assault 1, Small Blast, Barrage, Grenade*

Grenade: Grenades are Pinning weapons. In addition, for every third hit from Grenades a unit has taken, it has a -1 modifier to its Ld. Make this test at the end of the Shooting Phase, counting all units with grenades separately, and made separately from regular Pinning weapons. In addition, units with Frag Grenades do not get the -1 Initiative penalty when assaulting into cover.

The Acolyte wrote:How about assault grenades are an extra s4/5 attack per model at initiative 10? represents them throwing them into combat before the first blows are struck. Im leaning more towards strength 4 because it stops them being overpowered, but strength 5 seems more realistic as they are small explosives.

They are small explosives, but they are very very innacturate. Imagine trying to run across a football field at someone with a gun in one hand and a grenade in the other(probably your non dominant hand.) across the field from you is another man, who is running around as well. Now you try to throw your very heavy grenade at him. Assuming you were dead on with your aim, your grenade is not going to travel any faster than a baseball, football, cricketball, whatever. The guy you are throwing it at will probably see it and change the way he is running and avoid it.

Further grenades are fragmentation devices that work with shockwaves. A shockwave in the open does very little damage as it expands in 3 dimentions and loses its power cubically. Now in closed confines, like inside a room, vehicle, or trench it cant expand so doesnt lose its power. In the open though they are rather useless.

Now if the guy you are charging is not running around but is instead hiding in a trench(likely waiting for you to get close to get the jump on you), well then you can more easily lob it into the trench. The enemy will probably see them, if they dont after the first one they will know and they will abandon their trench. Thats why they ignore cover.

Today in modern warfare soliders all carry grenades yet they do not use them in the open field. They dont use them because they are virtually useless in space. While charging up you have to get the grenade out, throw it to almost no effect and while you are doing that you probably get yourself shot.




Further think of what you are saying. Grenade launchers are strenght 3. The strength of a human, trying as hard as they can to smack you. Also the strenght of a rather large caliber rifle or pistol and the same as a shotgun.
Str4 is the strenght of a genestealer a creature bred for combat. It is also the strenght of a genetically engineered SM, stronger than any mortal man today can hope for.
I see no reason why grenades should be strenght 5?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Frag Grenades:

S: 3 AP: 6 Range: 12" Type: Assault 1, Small Blast, Barrage, Grenade*

Grenade: Grenades are Pinning weapons. In addition, for every third hit from Grenades a unit has taken, it has a -1 modifier to its Ld. Make this test at the end of the Shooting Phase, counting all units with grenades separately, and made separately from regular Pinning weapons. In addition, units with Frag Grenades do not get the -1 Initiative penalty when assaulting into cover.

12" is about 100-150 yards the range of a pistol. I would like to see you throw a grenade 100 yards with any accuracy. I would also like to see a soldier dumb enough to sit in one place while you throw grenades at them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Frag Grenades:

S: 3 AP: 6 Range: 12" Type: Assault 1, Small Blast, Barrage, Grenade*

Grenade: Grenades are Pinning weapons. In addition, for every third hit from Grenades a unit has taken, it has a -1 modifier to its Ld. Make this test at the end of the Shooting Phase, counting all units with grenades separately, and made separately from regular Pinning weapons. In addition, units with Frag Grenades do not get the -1 Initiative penalty when assaulting into cover.

12" is about 100-150 yards the range of a pistol. I would like to see you throw a grenade 100 yards with any accuracy. I would also like to see a soldier dumb enough to sit in one place while you throw grenades at them.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:
.

They're not dumb enough, that's why they dive into cover, causing the Pinning test.

Also: Um, I'm not sure about 12' being 150 yards. If that's true, then a Rhino is 75 yards long.

there are a number of pistols in the game that only have a 6" range. You think a guardsman can throw a grenade farther than a pistol can shoot?

Didn't the original Rogue Trader rule (and Necromunda now) was that you could throw a grenade at Str x 2. Meaning for a Guardsmen 6", and a Marine 8".

grayspark wrote:

there are a number of pistols in the game that only have a 6" range. You think a guardsman can throw a grenade farther than a pistol can shoot?

Didn't the original Rogue Trader rule (and Necromunda now) was that you could throw a grenade at Str x 2. Meaning for a Guardsmen 6", and a Marine 8".

Sure let's go with that.

I figured they were Rifle Grenades for Guardsmen. Marines prolly can throw that far.

grenades could play a bigger part in the game , although having nads as a small blast would be the wrong way to go about it ,having anywhere from 5-50 blasts coming from a unit is not balanced ,nor would having free attacks or extra attacks in the assault. Nads should have negative effects for the guys getting hit by them not a bonus to the attacker. Something along the lines of -1WS or -1I (representing being stunned by the incoming explosions).Although dropping someones stats should be a bit more then 0-1 points , I think 15-20 pts for this would be fair moving it from a model upgrade to a squad upgrade. Grenades could also be used for interesting effects like smoke Grenades (works like Smoke for Units)or Incendiary Grenades ( Puts difficult and Dangerous terrain somewhere).I dont know just some ideas on how to improve them.

How about an extra attack thats (after more considereration) strength 3. Initiative 8 and always hits on a 6+.

How about instead of an attack that does damage you could use grenades in the shooting phase to make units flee.

A unit could throw grenades at something within 6" the unit that was targeted would then have to roll over the number of grenades thrown or be force to flee 2d6"

Thus 1 guy with a grenade would be useless, but if you had 10 you could push a unit back pretty far. If you throw at maximum range with a little luck you could push a unit out of assault range.

I can see guardsmen using this to good effect against orcs. Nids on the other hand are fleet mostly, wouldnt effect them much.

The Acolyte wrote:

Melissia wrote:Do you really want to get ten S4 attacks that always hit first every time a guard squad charges? Remember, I can easily get six of these cheaply and combine them into one unit which has several power weapons. That would do something along the lines of more than double the assault power of Guard, whom get their grenades for free.

I wasn't saying that grenades would still be free or 1pt. I meant if they were to be changed. Would be taken as like an extra weaponm upgrade per model.

So you would remove a lot of equipment from a lot of armies without giving them points back? Points that were, I should remind you, part of the cost of the unit when it was balanced out?

Assault grenades - negates the effects of cover. Grants +2 initiative when assaulting otherwise

Defensive grenades - fine

The grenade don't have the best rules atm. But i would say it would be to OP with giving assault grenade bearers furious charge

Cabbeen wrote:How about instead of an attack that does damage you could use grenades in the shooting phase to make units flee.

A unit could throw grenades at something within 6" the unit that was targeted would then have to roll over the number of grenades thrown or be force to flee 2d6"

Thus 1 guy with a grenade would be useless, but if you had 10 you could push a unit back pretty far. If you throw at maximum range with a little luck you could push a unit out of assault range.

I can see guardsmen using this to good effect against orcs. Nids on the other hand are fleet mostly, wouldnt effect them much.

better yet, how about you can throw grenades at an enemy within 6" For the rest of the turn the unit may not claim the benefits of a cover save, nor do they gain the benefits of cover in assault.

I think Phototoxin is right.

I really hate these threads (not grenades specifically). These "[insert weapon here] needs to be better!" threads. I don't think the OPs of these threads really understand how these types of weapons work.

The real world, which is (sort of) what 40K is modeled against does not reflect video games. Shotguns aren't the end-all-beat-all of firearms, sniper rifles can't kill everything that comes in a 5 mile radius, and grenades don't explode with a 500 megaton blast. Get over it.

Assault grenades, or fragmentation grenades, are generally ONLY used in confined spaces (houses, trenches, bunkers) because of their concussion wave. They really don't do much out in the open.

Shrike325 wrote:I really hate these threads (not grenades specifically). These "[insert weapon here] needs to be better!" threads. I don't think the OPs of these threads really understand how these types of weapons work.

The real world, which is (sort of) what 40K is modeled against does not reflect video games. Shotguns aren't the end-all-beat-all of firearms, sniper rifles can't kill everything that comes in a 5 mile radius, and grenades don't explode with a 500 megaton blast. Get over it.

Assault grenades, or fragmentation grenades, are generally ONLY used in confined spaces (houses, trenches, bunkers) because of their concussion wave. They really don't do much out in the open.

I agree more or less, there are definitely things that could be worked out (I believe someone said these assault grenades come in at 1 point a model which I find to be a tad bit low) but otherwise your reasoning definitely makes sense. Especially to a guy who has been hit by one of those stupid concussion grenades thanks to an idiotic Sergeant who tried to lob one over me from 20 yards back knowing full well that I was there and nearly took off my head in the process.

I agree that grenades should play a bigger role in the game, maybe something like during the combat phase you can choose to either use your normal attacks or try to "Stick Em".

"Stick Em" During either yours or your enemies assault phase you can chose to forgo all your normal attacks and try to stick the enemy with a grenade.

The number of "Stick Em" attempts in every assault phase is equal to the number of how many units in your squad that have grenades and divide that by three, rounding down.

Ex. A normal 10 man Tactical Squad have 10 marines all that have frag and krak grenades, so the squad would get 3 attempts. To stick a person you go off of the initiative value as the stickie is trying to stick a grenade on an enemy before they have time to react.

The stats for assault grenades are as follows

Frag Grenades - S3, AP6 Small Blast
*Frag Grenades hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, The model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S4, AP5 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Krak Grenades - S5, AP6 Small Blast
*Krak Grenades hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, The model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S6, AP4 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Melta Bombs - S7, AP4 Small Blast
*Melta Bombs hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, the model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S8, AP1 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Don't know any other assault grenades so dont know bout them.

If you miss the stick there is a chance the grenade is kicked or smacked away and such will deviate by scatter die and 1 D6

Riddick40k wrote:I agree that grenades should play a bigger role in the game, maybe something like during the combat phase you can choose to either use your normal attacks or try to "Stick Em".

"Stick Em" During either yours or your enemies assault phase you can chose to forgo all your normal attacks and try to stick the enemy with a grenade.

The number of "Stick Em" attempts in every assault phase is equal to the number of how many units in your squad that have grenades and divide that by three, rounding down.

Ex. A normal 10 man Tactical Squad have 10 marines all that have frag and krak grenades, so the squad would get 3 attempts. To stick a person you go off of the initiative value as the stickie is trying to stick a grenade on an enemy before they have time to react.

The stats for assault grenades are as follows

Frag Grenades - S3, AP6 Small Blast
*Frag Grenades hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, The model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S4, AP5 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Krak Grenades - S5, AP6 Small Blast
*Krak Grenades hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, The model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S6, AP4 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Melta Bombs - S7, AP4 Small Blast
*Melta Bombs hurt both enemy and friendly models under the blast, the model underneath the center blast instead suffers a S8, AP1 wound, allocations and saves are as normal.

Don't know any other assault grenades so dont know bout them.

If you miss the stick there is a chance the grenade is kicked or smacked away and such will deviate by scatter die and 1 D6

Question is: Knowing the fact that almost every unit who has grenades has both frag, as well as krak grenades, why would there be any reason to use frag over krak, as the latter is better in every aspect than the former?

Well first off not everyone gets Krak and Frags, And even so some models have to pay for it, secondly Frag grenades have a smaller chance of hurting your own guys then Krak grenades