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What do Imperial Commissars saying to Imperial citizens to get raw recruits for the war?

Think old school propaganda, like WWI and WWII, also through conscription if necessary. Planets like Catachan have to churn them out as their planetary tithes.

Some high class, blue blood families send their children strait to military academies to become high ranking officers.

Commissars don't talk to the average citizenry.

Kanluwen wrote:Commissars don't talk to the average citizenry.

Than who is recruiting the Guardsman?
Officers?

Nobody within the Guard, in all likelihood.

The Munitorum is responsible for the recruitment, transportation, and training of Guardsmen.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Commissars don't talk to the average citizenry.

Than who is recruiting the Guardsman?
Officers?

Non-combatant propaganda arms of the Departmento Munitorum I should think. This is just speculation though, I'd need to do a little digging to confirm that.

Probably recruitment officers...
At any rate half of the IG are tithed PDF and the other half are probably conscripted randomers.
Very few people volunteer, it's essentially a slow unpredictable death sentence...

Thanks Kanulwen.

But I was more interesting in what they are saying to them due to the reward of their service?
Like: "25 years in the Guard you earn Retirement, land on home world, some sum of thrones and your Lasgun ."
I really doubt that they are telling them about the wars that their brothers in arms are waging across the stars. I mean the real truth, the casualties list, worlds lost, new alien threats...

"Join the Guard and i won't shoot you just yet..."
Most people don't do it voluntarily, they get told to join the guard and if they don't they get killed to death... in the face.

Damn you, ninja Kanluwen.

Brother Coa wrote:Thanks Kanulwen.

But I was more interesting in what they are saying to them due to the reward of their service?
Like: "25 years in the Guard you earn Retirement, land on home world, some sum of thrones and your Lasgun ."

Nothing in most cases. People join the Guard either because it's considered an honor to serve(PDF recruitment leading to the Guard=a goldmine for families) or they're conscripted into a levy.

In most cases Guardsmen realize that there's no real "retirement" from the Guard. You're either invalided from serving on the frontlines(in which case you might as well be dead anyways) or you get too old to be an effective soldier and get relegated to a support role.

I really doubt that they are telling them about the wars that their brothers in arms are waging across the stars. I mean the real truth, the casualties list, worlds lost, new alien threats...

The Imperium itself doesn't know "the real truth". Reports get lost, things get misfiled, regiments vanish en route to warzones, etc.

We only know the "whole picture" because we're the omniscient reader, getting to see it all at once.

Even with recruitment, it's not the Munitorum doing it directly. THe Munitorum informs a planet that it needs to recruit x number of Guard regiments as part of their tithes, and the planet goes through their PDF forces looking for the most elite units and formations to be seconded to the Guard. Very rarely does the Guard just start grabbing random Imperial citizens, and only in times of most desperate need.

As for the PDFs that the Guard draw from, well people join that in various ways. SOme worlds it may be conscription, other it may be voluntary.

But yes, once you're in the Guard it's very unlikely you'll ever be seeing home again. If you're lucky, you'll be awarded a planet to settle on, and make into your new home, but I don't think that happens very often.

It's the Imperial Navy that grabs random citizens out of under-Hive bars and prison populations in order to fill its low-decks crews. The IG, through the Munitorum and its tithe-demands, enacts what are basically drafts on populated worlds. Of course, just as we see in real life, news-worthy events in local space, such as a xeno-attack on a nearby world or the raising of a new Crusade, can elicit a surge of patriotic feeling in the populace, leading to mass drives to voluntarily enlist in the PDF/IG.

ChrisWWII wrote:Even with recruitment, it's not the Munitorum doing it directly. THe Munitorum informs a planet that it needs to recruit x number of Guard regiments as part of their tithes, and the planet goes through their PDF forces looking for the most elite units and formations to be seconded to the Guard. Very rarely does the Guard just start grabbing random Imperial citizens, and only in times of most desperate need.

False.
The Munitorum does "do it directly". They are involved at all steps, from informing the planet they need to do it to actually overseeing the regiment.

The PDF thing is also a fallacy. Most planets have nothing done within their PDFs in terms of "being combed for the most elite units and formations" to become part of the Guard.

You don't get a choice as to what is put into the Guard. The Munitorum decides what is/isn't put in based on the requirements they need for the tithing.

Any additional Foundings beyond the tithing, yeah--you'll see that kind of idea done.

Guant's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, and the Guard Codex all support the idea of the Munitorum ordering a planet to recruit a certain number of regiments, the planet doing the recruiting, and the Munitorum maybe sending a few overseers to keep an eye on things.

As I recall, the PDF comes directly from the Guard Codex, saying that on some worlds, the competition to join the gUard can escalate into small wars.


From waht I can tell, the process is this.

1) Munitorum decideds it needs more Guard regiments for something.
2) The Munitorum chooses the planets it is going to recruit from, and the number of regiments per planet.
3) The Munitorum informs the planets, and may send a few overseers to make sure things are done right.
4) The planet chooses its Guardsmen from within the PDF forces it has.

ChrisWWII wrote:Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, and the Guard Codex all support the idea of the Munitorum ordering a planet to recruit a certain number of regiments, the planet doing the recruiting, and the Munitorum maybe sending a few overseers to keep an eye on things.

Please reread my posting. "They are involved at all steps" does not mean that it's the Munitorum guys on the streets doing everything.
What it means is that the Munitorum has the final say so.

Gaunt's Ghosts reinforces that as it's the governor of Tanith and the Munitorum officials in charge of training/recruitment who show off the Tanith to Gaunt.

As I recall, the PDF comes directly from the Guard Codex, saying that on some worlds, the competition to join the Guard can escalate into small wars.

Of course it does. Because most planets, when under a tithe, don't form just the 'bare number' of regiments. The more zealous planets(or in some cases those governed by nobility who want to move up and get in the Munitorum's good graces) will form more regiments than necessary.

From what I can tell, the process is this.
1) Munitorum decides it needs more Guard regiments for something.

Doing good so far.

2) The Munitorum chooses the planets it is going to recruit from, and the number of regiments per planet.

Yes/no. They choose a system they're going to recruit from. The number of Regiments they're founding will be based upon what that overall system can afford to send.

3) The Munitorum informs the planets, and may send a few overseers to make sure things are done right.

There's no "may" about it. The Munitorum sends overseers, end of story. The majority of these overseers and the trainers/logistical staff accompanying the overseers are ex-Guard. They prepare a 'basic' training regimen that all the recruits/volunteers have to pass in order to proceed.

4) The planet chooses its Guardsmen from within the PDF forces it has.

No. That's the worst possible way they could do it. You don't want the PDF to be combed for its "best and brightest".

You'll see some career soldiers pulled and the command cadre of a few PDF formations will usually be pulled as well. But immediately after that, the PDF is reshuffled to cover up those losses--promotions are given, things reorganized, etc.
Taking away the PDF's most experienced soldiery leaves that world vulnerable--despite what people think about the Imperium, they're not stupid. That kind of thing is only done in the most dire of circumstances. It's by no means done as "standard".

Look at the Gudrunites from the Eisenhorn books. The majority of them had never even held rifles before joining the Guard--they were citizens who signed on in a patriotic frenzy when a Crusade was announced.

I wasn't even aware the Imperial Guard/Navy bothered with recruitment considering all worlds have a conscription quota to meet.

Convincing most to join would be rather difficult in any regard, considering even if you don't die you'll never see your home and loved ones ever again. If you were living in some hellish Hive undercity I could understand it though.

Got to agree with Harriticus with the regards to "living in some hellish Hive undercity...". S'kinda the background I am going to go with on my custom IG regiment. Desert Rats!

Kanluwen wrote:
Please reread my posting. "They are involved at all steps" does not mean that it's the Munitorum guys on the streets doing everything.
What it means is that the Munitorum has the final say so

Ah ok, I agree with you there. SOrry about the misreading.

Of course it does. Because most planets, when under a tithe, don't form just the 'bare number' of regiments. The more zealous planets(or in some cases those governed by nobility who want to move up and get in the Munitorum's good graces) will form more regiments than necessary.

Makes sense for the Imperium, but do we have an example of this happening in canon? I'm not disputing that it's likely to happen, but I am curious.

Yes/no. They choose a system they're going to recruit from. The number of Regiments they're founding will be based upon what that overall system can afford to send.

Ah, system then. Close enough, they choose some Imperial territory, and then get Guardsmen from that territory depending on what they can provide.

There's no "may" about it. The Munitorum sends overseers, end of story. The majority of these overseers and the trainers/logistical staff accompanying the overseers are ex-Guard. They prepare a 'basic' training regimen that all the recruits/volunteers have to pass in order to proceed.

Fair enough, but I still hold that the vast majority of Guardsmen are already veterans.

No. That's the worst possible way they could do it. You don't want the PDF to be combed for its "best and brightest".

You'll see some career soldiers pulled and the command cadre of a few PDF formations will usually be pulled as well. But immediately after that, the PDF is reshuffled to cover up those losses--promotions are given, things reorganized, etc.
Taking away the PDF's most experienced soldiery leaves that world vulnerable--despite what people think about the Imperium, they're not stupid. That kind of thing is only done in the most dire of circumstances. It's by no means done as "standard".

The only problem is the Guard Codex diagrees with you. Yes, it may be stupid. It may not be the best idea, but it's what the Imperium does. On page 8 of the Codex, it says very clearly that it is common for the worlds elite military formation to compete to be found worth of the 'honor' of being inducted into the Imperial Guard. They don't gut the PDF unless they have to, true, but they do take some of the elite soldeirers to form a veteran core for the regiment. It's not the whole regiment comprised of elite troops, not is it just a sprinkling of command officers. The regiment will have a core of veterans from the PDF's elite, and some more common troops possibly drawn from the rest of the population.

Look at the Gudrunites from the Eisenhorn books. The majority of them had never even held rifles before joining the Guard--they were citizens who signed on in a patriotic frenzy when a Crusade was announced.

Ah, see, I hold the Gudrunites as an atypical founding for the reason that there's a Crusade starting, adn the Guard needs more troops. I hold that the Tanith are a more 'typical' Guard founding, as they were not needed for the build of a Crusade, but rather as part of the stream of reinforcements. I say that the patriotic frenzy of Gudrun was a bit off the norm, and the Guard recruited off by the same.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Please reread my posting. "They are involved at all steps" does not mean that it's the Munitorum guys on the streets doing everything.
What it means is that the Munitorum has the final say so

Ah ok, I agree with you there. Sorry about the misreading.

Of course it does. Because most planets, when under a tithe, don't form just the 'bare number' of regiments. The more zealous planets(or in some cases those governed by nobility who want to move up and get in the Munitorum's good graces) will form more regiments than necessary.

Makes sense for the Imperium, but do we have an example of this happening in canon? I'm not disputing that it's likely to happen, but I am curious.

Hell, the Gudrunite example works best. The Lord-Militant about to launch his Crusade came from a noble family on Gudrun, the governor of Gudrun upped the Foundings and got some political capital.

Yes/no. They choose a system they're going to recruit from. The number of Regiments they're founding will be based upon what that overall system can afford to send.

Ah, system then. Close enough, they choose some Imperial territory, and then get Guardsmen from that territory depending on what they can provide.

There's no "may" about it. The Munitorum sends overseers, end of story. The majority of these overseers and the trainers/logistical staff accompanying the overseers are ex-Guard. They prepare a 'basic' training regimen that all the recruits/volunteers have to pass in order to proceed.

Fair enough, but I still hold that the vast majority of Guardsmen are already veterans.

The vast majority of the Guard NCO structure are veterans, yeah.
You don't want rookies being led into combat by both untested NCOs and COs.

No. That's the worst possible way they could do it. You don't want the PDF to be combed for its "best and brightest".

You'll see some career soldiers pulled and the command cadre of a few PDF formations will usually be pulled as well. But immediately after that, the PDF is reshuffled to cover up those losses--promotions are given, things reorganized, etc.
Taking away the PDF's most experienced soldiery leaves that world vulnerable--despite what people think about the Imperium, they're not stupid. That kind of thing is only done in the most dire of circumstances. It's by no means done as "standard".

The only problem is the Guard Codex disagrees with you. Yes, it may be stupid. It may not be the best idea, but it's what the Imperium does. On page 8 of the Codex, it says very clearly that it is common for the worlds elite military formation to compete to be found worth of the 'honor' of being inducted into the Imperial Guard. They don't gut the PDF unless they have to, true, but they do take some of the elite soldiers to form a veteran core for the regiment. It's not the whole regiment comprised of elite troops, not is it just a sprinkling of command officers. The regiment will have a core of veterans from the PDF's elite, and some more common troops possibly drawn from the rest of the population.

You're again thinking that it's "they take all the elite soldiers and fold them into Veteran Squads".

That's not the case. We've seen it described before, and it simply goes like so:
-Commissioned Officers(either from nobility or not from the planet of the Founding).
-NCOs and Junior Officers, usually drawn up from the 'veteran' core coming from the PDF.
-Conscripts and Recruits.
The majority of troopers in a Founding will be raw recruits who barely rate the term 'Conscript'.
You see some differences based upon the world, but that's what your 'average' Imperial world would be giving. Cadia, Elysia and Krieg are not really the 'standard' as it comes for experience on the troopers.

Your average PDF 'veteran', for another thing, has probably been in all of 10-15 firefights during a 20 year career.

Look at the Gudrunites from the Eisenhorn books. The majority of them had never even held rifles before joining the Guard--they were citizens who signed on in a patriotic frenzy when a Crusade was announced.

Ah, see, I hold the Gudrunites as an atypical founding for the reason that there's a Crusade starting, and the Guard needs more troops. I hold that the Tanith are a more 'typical' Guard founding, as they were not needed for the build of a Crusade, but rather as part of the stream of reinforcements. I say that the patriotic frenzy of Gudrun was a bit off the norm, and the Guard recruited off by the same.

The Gudrunites are the 'typical' Founding actually. They were being founded as part of the structure of the Crusade, with that specific intention in mind.

The Tanith weren't done as "part of the stream of reinforcements", but rather as the same thing as the Gudrunites. They were a 'recently' liberated world that didn't have to provide a Founding, but did as they'd finally reached tithing numbers of population. In fact, they provided three.

The Munitorum must have one hell of a job trying to keep the Guard up to strength. The Imperium has the numbers sure, but the time and resources needed to train, equip and transport so many men throughout such massive realm as the IoM must be mind boggling.

Yay 101 posts.

I'm sure with all the horrible living conditions in the big hive cities,many people probably have better lives in the guard.

For my own fluff I presumed that service in the guard was considered a great honor and the culture of the system encouraged it, making recruitment a non issue and conscription something not needed. Not really based on anything though.

Oh, the more famous commissars can talk to entire populations at a time if they want. See Ciaphas Cain, the exception to every rule.

As far as fluff seems to indicate it generally falls to the Guardsmen to sign up, rather than being recruited. Only on occasion do members of the IG talk to the actual citizens.

Page 8 of the Guard codex has the tithe being filled from the top 10% of the PDF. Considering that the PDF wouldn't actually have any combat experience in most circumstances, that would probably amount to those troops in the best physical condition, who display the most skill, rather than merely selecting veterans. One could assume that when raising a regiment, the local forces generally train around ten soldiers for every one they end up sending, with the rest entering the PDF or local police forces. Since even in the worst of times only about a tenth of one percent of the population gets sent in the tithe (Armageddon, given an "unusually high" tithe due to the nearby wars, was tithed for one hundred million recruits, less than .1% of its hundreds of billions; page 8 Guard codex), it's not like they don't have enough people to be picky about who they recruit.

In most cases it would play upon the average citizens loyalty to the throne.
eg
You live in a scummy crappy part of a big hive city that doesn't care about you and some flashy off-worlder offers you a life doing something worthwhile in the guard. They won't tell you that after RIP you'll probaly be lying in some hell-hole getting shot at. They recruiting officers appear like a perosn that cannot lie and show half-truths.
Plus when you leave (if you do) you'll have a massive paycheck waiting for you.

So in the end Guardsman all die without retirement...
But, if "15 hours" book, the grandfather of the main character get hold on a lottery wining ticket and he was sent into retirement. He even got to chose witch world he would go ( but only worlds on witch he have fought while in the Guard ). He receives some money, he was liberated of taxes ( I think ) and he was given a house and a farmland.
It's a little cruel holding a lottery to send men home, but giving the circumstances ( long wars, no chance for recruiting new man... ) it's better than nothing.
And what an irony, he get all that and his grandson died 48 hours after landfall. On wrong planet fighting the wrong enemy - truly grim-dark...

My own IG are recruited through volunteers signing up.

And Commissars speak to the locals when they are required to by their duties (speaking to local police forces/priesthood/etc when soldiers in their charge break the rules), or during basic training when they may take charge of recruits discipline.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Considering that the PDF wouldn't actually have any combat experience in most circumstances

bs.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

Only the luckiest of the PDF wouldn't have any experience. Sure the Guard on average has MORE, but some PDF are better equipped than the Guard, and some are more experienced... a rare few are both.