Twin-Linked Pistols as an Upgrade To Veteran Squad Sergeants.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Sven_Ironstorm**

I recently converted a Sergeant from an Imperial Guard Veteran Squad with a pair of Bolt Pistols I took off of the SM Scout Biker arms from a seperate conversion. I know that Creed carries a pair of Hot-Shot laspistols, so why not do it as an upgrade, under the same special rules implemented on that weapon?

**AlexHolker**

I voted neither. Sisters of Battle Heroines should, though.

**loota boy**

It would just be an upgrade like bolt pistols. It isn't worth 5 points, so you have to make it something weird, like 2 or 3 points, which steers players away from it. And it doesn't really increase damage output, at least not a noticable amount. All it does is make rolls more tedious and annoying. But to each their own, I suppose. I'm fairly sure that a sporting player would let you house rule it.

**Sven_Ironstorm**

loota boy wrote:It would just be an upgrade like bolt pistols. It isn't worth 5 points, so you have to make it something weird, like 2 or 3 points, which steers players away from it. And it doesn't really increase damage output, at least not a noticable amount. All it does is make rolls more tedious and annoying. But to each their own, I suppose. I'm fairly sure that a sporting player would let you house rule it.

I'll do some play testing through the idea next time I'm at my GW. If it's not very good, too good, ect., I'll just say the other one counts as a chainsword as it's jammed permanently or something

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

I'm all for it.

**Jone96**

Yes it would be cool but is it effective? No!

**Exergy**

the way things go it would be 5 points as it seems everything is a minimum of 5 points in the new DE book

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

Actually, at least in the case of Space Marine Sergeants, this would be free. Why? Simple. Codex: Space Marines has several units which can change their default Bolter or Chainsword for a Bolt Pistol for free. Since the Bolter And Chainsword seem to be valued equally with the bolt pistol, you should be able to swap them both out to grant a Twin Linked Bolt Pistol.

Now, my take on this is that each of my sergeants have a Bolt Pistol in one hand and a Plasma Pistol in the other, getting the +1 Attack bonus and letting me choose between something dangerous but powerful and something safe but average.

**Melissia**

None. Twin-linked pistols is a special thing, and should be reserved to those who specifically practice that fighting style.

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

I think it ought to be a common thing, actually. Plenty of people would think of it over the centuries, and it'd likely spread all over the 40k universe due to its effectiveness. It makes particular sense with Laspistols, where the very high magcap(30 shots per charge pack) makes it more practical than most modern pistols. Bolt and Stub weapons make less sense, but it's reasonable a Space Marine Sergeant could pick up the skills to use a pair of pistols easily.

**Melissia**

No it wouldn't, because he doesn't train with them very often. He trains with bolter, bolt pistol, and chainsword.

The ones who use two pistols as twin-linked specifically train with it as their sole method of fighting their entire careers.

Accurately handling two pistols at the same time is not an easy thing to master, it's DRAMATICALLY easier to handle just one.

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

There's not a single thing that specifies a Sergeant can't train with two pistols. Roughly half my sergeants use the plasma pistol/bolt pistol combo above. That sergeant may very well have trained all their lives, or spent, say, ten years training like that. I'm willing to bet a Space Marine is a lot better at picking up skills than a normal, unaugmented human. Plus, they have lots and lots of time, since all their time not at war is spent in training or in prayer. I bet if you put four solid hours a day into training with a pair of pistols, you'd get pretty darned handy with them.

**Melissia**

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:There's not a single thing that specifies a Sergeant can't train with two pistols.

So? There's not a single thing that says an Ork can't train to become BS4. There's not a single thing that says an Eldar can't be I2 because s/he got an injury somewhere. There's not a single thing that says a human can't have MEQ if plot demands it. There's not a single thing saying that someone in the Inquisition hasn't secretly been trying to develop female space marines. There's not a single thing saying that Marneus Calgar isn't gay and secretly having a mancrush on Leman Russ, either.

If you want to justify your own little mary-sue chapter having special abilities above and beyond that of normal, that's your prerogative, doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with it. Again, this is a special ability given only to those who train their entire careers in it, not something some dinky little spehss muhreen sarge specializes in.

**Almarine**

It's not going to take anyone a lifetime to figure out how to pull two triggers simultaneously, especially when you're firing both pistols at the same target. In fact, it will probably be easier than firing a single pistol with your off hand, since you'll be following your right (or left, whatever) hand aim. You could argue that it's hard to fire a handgun one-handed in the first place, but it's certainly not outside the ability of a space marine.

That said, using two pistols just makes you look like a complete douche. Especially a space marine who is his own perfect weapon, bolt pistols and such merely tools. If you give one two bolt pistols, it will detract from that image and make him appear somehow reliant on them. There's no way a squad would listen to a wimp like him. At least that's how I see it. It says in the codex, only one pistol per marine, probably.

It's not like it really matters though, it's just one re-rolled bolt pistol shot. If you want to pay 5pts for that, be my guest. If your dude wants to roll out (of the closet) like that I'd let you do it for free but honestly it's probably more useful to just count the two pistols as one bolter, or separate ccws.

**Thaylen**

Glue a tau multi-tracker to your sarge. Then he can use both pistols.

On a more serious note. It is an interesting rule and have been tempted to do something similar myself. Personally though, I think a plama pistol (or infernus pistol for you BA players) should count as a power weapon. And maybe increase the cost to 20pts for the pistol.

**Exergy**

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Actually, at least in the case of Space Marine Sergeants, this would be free. Why? Simple. Codex: Space Marines has several units which can change their default Bolter or Chainsword for a Bolt Pistol for free. Since the Bolter And Chainsword seem to be valued equally with the bolt pistol, you should be able to swap them both out to grant a Twin Linked Bolt Pistol.

Now, my take on this is that each of my sergeants have a Bolt Pistol in one hand and a Plasma Pistol in the other, getting the +1 Attack bonus and letting me choose between something dangerous but powerful and something safe but average.

most space marines always have a bolt pistol and either a close combat weapon OR a bolter. By your logic a bolter is equal to a close combat weapon....

it a trade. +1 attack vs a better shooting weapon. I would be happy to let you have the twin linked pistol if it didnt grant +1 attack in close combat.

**Praxiss**

@ Exergy - that's what i was going to say. By all means have a TL pistol, but i woudl say either sacrifice 1A or no bonus attack when charging.

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

Mathhammer Time: All stats are Marines vs. MEQs

Bolter/Bolt Pistol

Shooting: 2/3 Chance To hit, 1/2 Chance To wound, 2 shots, equals 2/3 of a wound, on average.

Assault: One Bolt Pistol Shot(2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound) then 2 CC attacks(on the charge) both hitting and wounding 1/2 the time. 1/6+1/4+1/4=2/3 Chance to wound(same as above)

Bolt Pistol/Chainsword

Shooting: 1/6 Chance to wound(Worse than Bolter and Pistol)

Assault: 1/6(pistol shot)+3 CC, a hit and a half means three quarters of a wound. Total, around 5/6 chance to wound(much better than bolter/bolt pistol)

Twin Pistols:

Shooting: 4/3 Chance to hit(due to re-roll), 1/2 chance to wound. Averages a little over half a wound, rounding to half later on

Assaulting With +1 Attack: 1/2(shooting), 3 attacks makes 3/4 of a would. Total averages 5/4 of a wound(best yet)

Assaulting with only charge bonus: 1/2 Shooting, 2 attacks means 1 hit, half a wound, one wound on average.

Well, anyone who can understand my horridly unclear mathammer gets that Twin Pistols with +1 attack is slightly better than all other choices, whereas Twin Pistols on its own is about balanced with the rest.

**Praxiss**

So Twin pistols with no addl CC attack is roughly equal to all the other free options?

Works for me. Adds a different modelling aspect for people to play with.

**Almarine**

If you want to call them that.

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

Yeah, Twin Pistols with no bonus CC is roughly equal to the other two options, so it ought to be free.

**Kingsley**

Not necessary. If you really care about that John Woo stuff, model your Sergeant with two laspistols and have it count as a shotgun. Two bolt pistols doesn't make much sense for a mere Sergeant, as bolt pistols are rare and prized weapons in the Imperial Guard. Honestly, wielding two pistols at once doesn't really make much sense at all, unless the weapons are so unreliable that you need to have a backup in case one doesn't work-- that's why you used to see this kind of thing with flintlocks and the like.

**Almarine**

Fetterkey wrote:Not necessary. If you really care about that John Woo stuff, model your Sergeant with two laspistols and have it count as a shotgun.

For some reason I originally thought this was about space marine sergeants, which was obviously stupid since it's right there in the title, but now that that's cleared up, this is clearly a flawless solution. I would do this myself if I didn't think a shotgun was cooler.

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

@: Fetterkey: Some people just like the doubled rate of fire.

In any case, I'll be doing this for some of my Space Marine Sergeants, and asking the other guy if it's okay. If not, well, it's just a bolt pistol and a chainsword, then.

**Praxiss**

I have a coulpe of marines already modelled with 2 pistols (just count the other as a normal cc weapons). I think they look great and, used every now and again, add a little bit of a different look to a squad.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Well it depends. Personally when I saw TL pistol, I thought of a single pistol with two barrels or something of the sort.

Having an additional pistol should grant an extra shot, not make the pistol TL.