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I've recently got into the Orcs and Goblins codex and I am currently debating what weapons to give them.

First number being normal orcs/second being the strength big uns.


Additional Hand Weapons grant a extra attack to my horde so my front line can hit much harder at strength 4/5, then strength 3/4. I understand more attacks is always great.

Lances meanwhile allow attacks from two ranks at strength 5(or 6 for big uns), then strength 4/5. Considering they already get a extra attack from being frenzied, these guys seem the most obivous choice since they allow them to overwhem lower then normal toughness, and also allows more reliable damage vs tougher infantry.

Bows are amusing, since it allows them to shoot while traveling across the board, but does not provide any strength. It's a passable idea, but possibly makes them too multifunctional and less effective in melee.

Any experiences?

Only reason I would use Spears is for using shields. There are a lot of +S4 attacks out there so I wouldnt bother with that especially with frenzy. No idea where you got lances from, orcs cant take lances (technically they can but its in the form of mounted spears, lances dont even work on foot) Take additional hand weapons for full attacks every time you charge

Although I just wrote a list on orcs, not too keen on their inner workings yet

kenshin620 wrote:Only reason I would use Spears is for using shields. There are a lot of +S4 attacks out there so I wouldnt bother with that especially with frenzy. No idea where you got lances from, orcs cant take lances (technically they can but its in the form of mounted spears, lances dont even work on foot) Take additional hand weapons for full attacks every time you charge

Although I just wrote a list on orcs, not too keen on their inner workings yet

Ahh, I meant spears. I don't see a lot of difference, both are pointy and stabby, so Savage orcs use them for both. lolz

And agreed with the sheilds, though again, savage Orcs have inval, I doubt a sheild be much good for them.

A Savage orc sea guard list might just work.
A block of 18 with the big stabba thing and bows would dump out 15 shots at range, and then do 18 S4 attacks with D3 impact hits.
Take a few of those blocks, supported by warmachines, and you've got some tactical options.

-Matt

I think it depends a lot on the size of the boar boyz unit. Assuming AHW are the same price as spears:

1) Small units with wider ranks do better with AHW as you are getting full advantage of the AHW. You only get the extra attack in the front rank, so if you have fewer ranks you are not paying as much for extra attacks you are not using. Plus with fewer guys the multiplier for 1 more Str is less than the multiplier for 1 more attack. 1 more Str increases your bonus by 16% (for one rank) while 1 more attack on models with 2 attacks increases by 50%. (I think my math is a bit faulty there, but the general idea is the same.)

2) Spears for larger units. Every attacking model (first and second rank) will get the bonus +1 Str on the charge. With 2 ranks more of your attackers get the bonus (compared with +1 A.)

Say hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, 4+ save. 1/2*1/2*1/2= 1/8 => 8 attacks per unsaved wounds base.

6 man wide boar boyz (I am assuming they have 2 attacks base with Frezy included, ignoring boars and Str bonus for charging from choppas.) 12 attacks, 1.5 wounds base.

Add AHW (change number of attacks)= 18 attacks, 2.5 wounds, every round. 2 round average: 2.5
Add Spear (change requirements to wound)= 1/2*2/3*2/3 = 4/18 => 4.5 attacks to wound. 12 attacks=> 2.66 wounds first round.
1/2*1/2*1/2 second round, 1.5 wounds
2 round average: 2.08

12 boar boyz in 2 6 man ranks. 18 attacks base (12 front rank + 1 supporting.)

Add AHW: 24 attacks => 3 wounds every round. 2 round average 3.
Add spear: 18 attacks at +1 on charge => 4 wounds. Second round 2.25 wounds. 2 round average: 3.125

So here's the considerations:
1) How long do you expect the combats to last? Are you expecting one turn kills as against warmachines?
2) How many are you taking (related to number 1)? 6 or less probably should lean towards AHW.
3) Will you get the charge? (You should.)
4) What are you charging, i.e. do you expect to get hurt enough that you lose part of that second rank?

Probably more to think about, but that's the basic mathhammer version.

Nice analysis.
I think in most situations, you're going to want the AHW. The units that you need to punch through with the extra strength are rare, and I'm not sure boar boyz are your best option for dealing with them.

Da Boss wrote:Nice analysis.
I think in most situations, you're going to want the AHW. The units that you need to punch through with the extra strength are rare, and I'm not sure boar boyz are your best option for dealing with them.

What's harder to work into theory hammer is the survivability of the orcs.
Spears gives you the option of a shield; 4+ armor is a lot better than 5+.
Striking at init 2 means most opponents will be swinging before you; so each save you make is 1 more orc fighting; unless you field a big unit where you can absorb losses in a 3rd rank.
I'm a fan of spears and shield; I like more survivability, and better chances against monster, and most of all, I like the look.

If you break down numbers enough, you'll see the differences between one or the other is pretty small, and either option can work.

-Matt

I am confused as to where the Boar Boyz terminogy came from, I mainly saught information on Savage Orcs with spears, which I inaccurately called lances. That being said, the information is useful to me never the less, so it all works out. I was thinking of running a 8 man unit of boars somewhere. ^^

Seaguard style Savage Orcs is interesting, just thoughts:

Pros:

Good alround flexablity, shooting arrows gives those boys something to do at range, 15 arrows can irriate but they are also still pretty handy in a scrap for a bunch of sillia arrer boyz.
duriable: With Sharman giving inval 5+ and toughness 4, these guys can become quite hard to shift for an archer unit, a potencial good sharman bunker which can add fire and resist armour pericing. They can even resist their own shermans failings with their invals
Don't cower near Goblins: These guys can sit near night goblin units and will remain even if they flee.

Cons:
Wastes Orcs Talents, namely toughness in melee and chopper rule
Makes them weaker then a purest savage orc melee unit, they don't gian the +1 attack or the extra lance strength.
Frenzy may make them surge off when not desired (read, not ever), often taking their sharman into combat with them.(unfortuante)
Not as cost effective in melee: at 9 points a pop, 20 savage orcs become 60 night gobs, and thats not including the price of Sharman support. They could get inefficent very quickly as arrows does not make them any more likely to win a streight up scrap. If your looking to grind another block into oblivion, plain old orcs and gobs do that better since the savages only really get their good stuff when facing armour ignoring stuff.

I am also unsure about the benfits of the big stabber in such a unit, or giving the unit big stabbers at all. 20 points is a steep price for 1D3 Attacks. Rather try and invest it in other stuff around it to bulk my army out.

Oh, I figured you got lances and spears confused because you were using them mounted. Also you referred to your lances giving bonus strength, which ONLY happens mounted. On foot spears give you an extra rank of supporting attacks, but only if you didn't charge.

Based on that, I believe you are actually incorrect, and wanted to know all about Savage Boar Boyz from the start, not Savage orcs on foot.

Actually, come to think of it the main difference between AHW and Spears is really survivability with shields, and whether or not you want to be charging. If you get charged and have 3 ranks the difference is 0 attacks +1 pip of armor survivability, and whatever extra shields cost. How well do Savage lads pass frenzy checks?

Wehrkind wrote:Oh, I figured you got lances and spears confused because you were using them mounted. Also you referred to your lances giving bonus strength, which ONLY happens mounted. On foot spears give you an extra rank of supporting attacks, but only if you didn't charge.

Based on that, I believe you are actually incorrect, and wanted to know all about Savage Boar Boyz from the start, not Savage orcs on foot.

Actually, come to think of it the main difference between AHW and Spears is really survivability with shields, and whether or not you want to be charging. If you get charged and have 3 ranks the difference is 0 attacks +1 pip of armor survivability, and whatever extra shields cost. How well do Savage lads pass frenzy checks?

Yeah, but I also mentioned bows, which meant they could be Boar Riders, good old mork. XD

On that note, not a whole not a point then, since Savage Orcs have inval save rather then armour save and giving them a sheild would make it redundent. So that counts spears out entirely unless I wish to run Goblins or Standard Orcs.

So essencally it's an arms race between bows and additional weapons. Additional weapons give them more pressence in melee, while bows can allow them to act like a bunker and rain strength 3 shots down. Guess it depends on the list.

Yeah, extra hand weapons are better than spears. Including shields, I'd still consider it a toss-up, even without the higher cost.

Bows offers you a way to reach those units you can't get otherwise. I wouldn't give my Big Un's bows, and I'd probably use gobbos for archery anyway, but it's a useful concept.

As for Boar Boyz, I'll agree with Wehrkind, and add this: with reg'lar Boar Boyz, I'd tend to go with spears, since S5 seems to be the magical number. With Big Un's, I'd do extra hand weapons, for the same reason.

Wysten wrote:
On that note, not a whole not a point then, since Savage Orcs have inval save rather then armour save and giving them a sheild would make it redundent. So that counts spears out entirely unless I wish to run Goblins or Standard Orcs.

Not sure if you know this (I know it tripped me up a bit when I switched from 40k to Fantasy) but in Fantasy you get to take BOTH your armor and your ward/regen save. So a shield gives you +1 to your armor which you take before you take the 6+ ward. So it isn't entirely redundant like it is in 40k, but rather consistently better. I say that because you don't get the 6+ ward from parrying if you are using a spear, so the 6+ ward isn't redundant with parry.

Frenzied units cant claim parry saves wehrkind

Ahhhh... To be honest, I assumed the inval save nagated the use of Armor altogether, which makes it seem more valid. Still not sure whether I would take it, since 10 points per orc seems rather high for for an extra attack and additional +6 save. Still could be something worth thinking about instead of, say, a block of Black Orcs.

Meh imo additional save from shield isnt worth the points, too many +S4 attacks out there

Gar'Ang wrote:Frenzied units cant claim parry saves wehrkind

I know; you also don't get it with any weapon other than "hand weapon". My point was the 6+ Ward is good in addition to armor, and I wasn't sure what he meant by redundant. Turns out I was correct, that he was thinking in 40k terms instead of Fantasy.


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Wow, are savage orcs 10 more points per boy than regular? I didn't realize there was that much of a differential... I figured it was more like 5 points per boy at most.

No way 10 points.

SOrcs are 2 pts more expensive than regular orcs and trade LA for the 6+ ward save.

Shield is pretty meaningless as they can't wear armor and frenzied units don't get a parry save which anyway is redundant with the warpaint, so I'd rather have an additional attack than a 6+ armor save (which you won't be getting most of the time because of S modifiers).

Wehrkind wrote:

Gar'Ang wrote:Frenzied units cant claim parry saves wehrkind

I know; you also don't get it with any weapon other than "hand weapon". My point was the 6+ Ward is good in addition to armor, and I wasn't sure what he meant by redundant. Turns out I was correct, that he was thinking in 40k terms instead of Fantasy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, are savage orcs 10 more points per boy than regular? I didn't realize there was that much of a differential... I figured it was more like 5 points per boy at most.

Nah, it's two additional points, but assuming I take spears and sheilds, 4 points more is a lot, easpically factoring a decent sherman into account with Shruken Head.

That being said, the strength modifieris new to me too, since armour in 40K is stubornly fixed. While I am going to be fighting elves (easpically of the Dark and Wood varient) and Vampire Lords all the time, perhaps the static extra attack instead of the ranks is more reliable and cheaper. Just got to do some play testing of it's endurance.

Shields on Sorcs is pointless.

A 6+ AS takes you nowhere these days, and the 6+ ward (5+ if you take the head) more than makes up for it. Save the shields and put more boyz.

Dual choppa is the way to go for savages, you generally want to charge your enemy, and on that situation spears are just a wasted point.

Spears and extra hand weapons are the same except:

- the prior doesn't give a bonus when you charge.
- the prior's bonus will be lost to casualties faster than the latter.
- the prior can be used with a shield.

So, extra hand weapons are better weapons than spears. If you want to invest more points to reduce casualties by 16% against S3 or less...I suppose spears offer that. I don't think it's worth the points, though.

I do like the bow-idea, though. A unit that won't roll over dead in combat, and that can peg those obnoxious fliers or fast cavalry.
Not my choice on a unit of 30. But 15? I think so.

Hmm it was mentioned once I think in this topic and I bet as the book came it it was talked about but speaking of Sorcs are the Stabbas any good?

Aye, after that, I think it's obivous spears can be discounted. They are just more expensive for less save. I honestly think in that example, combat weapon + shield is more reliable, and I just don't think the sheild will be reliable enough to offer me a consistant bonus.

Yeah, I agree with the numbers with the archers, savage orcs should attempt to get into combat when possilbe and unlike arrer boys are capable of having a good scrap. Only concern is they cost 3 times a night gobbo each. So may be unfesable compared to the 20 man 60 point Night Goblin bunker.

Not tried stabbas yet, can't really comment.

I've churned this one over during many, many hours at work. Here is the deal-

Shields are, as stated earlier, almost completely worthless. They only to anything (literally anything at all) against things up to s3. Now the question "What low strength units actually threaten my T4 with a 6+ ward?" is a fun trivia question, it happens vanishingly rarely. Even when it does happen (Skavenslaves, speary night gobbos, speary high elves who haven't been enhanced) it barely justifies the point increase in even those games. The one bit of value I see is painting score for a marginal painter like myself at tournaments. Shields are easy to make look impressive. Do you really want to pay game points for a cosmetic improvement though?

Spears on the other hand do have a good use. It's rare, but... If you are running enough orcs to ensure you won't lose attacks due to casualties (4-7 ranks for non-horde, 5-8 horde) and have several characters in the front rank displacing the meaningful EHW attacks, AND you have sufficient flank coverage to ensure those side-orcs won't come into play, then you gain 1 attack per character at the cost of 1 attack on your champion in chump challenges.

If you have fallen down the Shrunken Headstar list design hole (Shrunken head means I should take Wurzaag, now my unit is 5+ ward and 2+ against magic so I guess my BSB and General should be savage and go there... My BSB is survivable enough naked now so I guess he can have an even more expensive standard. Now I need a Black Orc to keep them all free from animosity. Now I have 5 characters including 2 lords in a 10x5 or larger unit... Guess it's a deathstar now so why not go whole hog and use the rest of my heroes there?) you should use spears to gain that situational <10 extra attacks.

Those are really good points. I hadn't previously considered how spears are better than AHW in the presence of characters.

That leads me to another consideration: there are a few items/spells that reduce attacks of a unit or models by one to a minimum of 1. Spears are largely unaffected as the extra rank can only be reduced to the one attack it is getting anyway. Probably a minor concern, but interesting to remember.