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Sitting here day dreaming while I wait for my wife's family to finish cooking an Easter feast and I was wondering why the current lizardmen book does not offer a gw upgrade for saurus warriors!

Not sure if this was ever an option for them as I never played with lizards with a different book other than the current one, but does anyone else think that in light of the options for core units in many other books (dwarfs and woc just to name a few) and the stat line of sw's... That gws would be amazing on these guys?

Pervertdhermit wrote:Sitting here day dreaming while I wait for my wife's family to finish cooking an Easter feast and I was wondering why the current lizardmen book does not offer a gw upgrade for saurus warriors!

Not sure if this was ever an option for them as I never played with lizards with a different book other than the current one, but does anyone else think that in light of the options for core units in many other books (dwarfs and woc just to name a few) and the stat line of sw's... That gws would be amazing on these guys?

I'd love to have extra hand weapons, or even spears, as an option for dwarves; but I get 1 option; great weapon, or nothing.
In theme and balance, saurus are supposed to be tough, and win grinding match; if they lose the shield, they'd lose some of what makes them tough.

-Matt

I was just looking through Liz not long ago and Saurus Warriors are about one of the best core units in the game as it is. They can hold their own against just about anything.

That said, I like to see as many options as possible on units, because it means more armies are different. They just have to be priced correctly.

They're already init 1 so all they would lose by a GW is shield/spear and the cost of the GW.

It's more of a theme thing, I assume; Aztec warriors used spears and clubs, mostly.

Saurus would certainly benefit from great weapons, and I see that as both a reason to avoid them (sacrificing flavor for power in army design is bad), but also as a reason that they would elect to use them.

I mean, why wouldn't they, as a race, take advantage of their own strengths?

I've always wondered why Temple Guard use halberds over great weapons. Or why Pheonix Guard use halberds over great weapons.

...why do "Guards" of one kind or another use halberds? Aside from Grave-, Glade-, and Eternal Guard, they pretty much all do. Wouldn't guys whose job it is to protect stuff want...ya' know, a shield?
And High Elves have no excuse.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Pervertdhermit wrote:Sitting here day dreaming while I wait for my wife's family to finish cooking an Easter feast and I was wondering why the current lizardmen book does not offer a gw upgrade for saurus warriors!

Not sure if this was ever an option for them as I never played with lizards with a different book other than the current one, but does anyone else think that in light of the options for core units in many other books (dwarfs and woc just to name a few) and the stat line of sw's... That gws would be amazing on these guys?

I'd love to have extra hand weapons, or even spears, as an option for dwarves; but I get 1 option; great weapon, or nothing.
In theme and balance, saurus are supposed to be tough, and win grinding match; if they lose the shield, they'd lose some of what makes them tough.

-Matt

Dwarfs with spears just dont sound right to me.... I just cant imagine a dwarf unit all holding spears....

Well I can but it doesnt look right.

Well, Dwarfs are primarily Nordic in their tone, with a touch of Germanic to make them more than shorter chaos warriors. Spears would work.

I don't think spears would be a particularly good option for them, though, especially at 9pts a model.

That said, I've always thought Dwarf Warriors should just come with shields for 8pts. I mean, what kind of a Dwarf leaves home without his trusty shield? "Battle line" and "shield wall" are synonymous in Dwarfen lore.

Warpsolution wrote:I mean, what kind of a Dwarf leaves home without his trusty shield?

Slayers?

Sane Dwarf*

@Steamdragon: that is exactly right. And he only does it that one time--the time he takes the Oath and leaves his hold.

I doubt there are Slayers who slay 9-5, come home, let their Mohawks down and have a beer.

It would make them too good. They are one of the best core troops (Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs are up there too)

Warpsolution wrote:
...why do "Guards" of one kind or another use halberds? Aside from Grave-, Glade-, and Eternal Guard, they pretty much all do. Wouldn't guys whose job it is to protect stuff want...ya' know, a shield?
And High Elves have no excuse.

I have a feeling it's a historical thing. Many guard used halberds/polearms. The Swiss Guard still carry them and use them on parade and when on guard in the Vatican because of tradition.

Yeah, but that's got to be a European thing. I doubt the Aztecs, the (historical inspiration for Dark Elves), the (historical inspiration for High Elves), and the Egyptians all used them.

...unless they did. Has Games Workshop stumbled upon a Universal Truth? Is this yet another way in which all the world's peoples are united? That we all guard that which we hold dear with long-handled, heavy-bladed axes and spears?

Maybe some of the game designers are philosophers and anthropologists in their spare time.

All in all, though, Saurus would be pretty damn sick with great weapons; +2pts/model doesn't seem like it'd be enough. Would anyone take spears after this? I don't think so.

It's sort of the same thing with Sword Masters and White Lions; they benefit so much from great weapons.
But as I said before, it makes sense that a race would take the gear that most benefits them.

Maybe Core with A2 S6 for 13pts/model is just too much. I could get behind the Temple Guard having some, though. It's not like you see a ton of them running around anyway.

Does anyone take spears on saurus anyway?

Parry save>>>>>>>>>>>>>an extra rank of attacks...

Are you kidding? A 25% to cause a wound (against WS3-6, T4) is way better than a 16% chance to negate a wound.

Warpsolution wrote:Yeah, but that's got to be a European thing. I doubt the Aztecs, the (historical inspiration for Dark Elves), the (historical inspiration for High Elves), and the Egyptians all used them.

...unless they did. Has Games Workshop stumbled upon a Universal Truth? Is this yet another way in which all the world's peoples are united? That we all guard that which we hold dear with long-handled, heavy-bladed axes and spears?

The Aztecs had no Halberd equivalent as far as I could tell. That said, the Lizardmen don't even use the most famous of Aztec weapons: the Atlatl

As for Elves, Phoenix Guard are used to Guard the Flame, but White Lions are the bodyguard of the Phoenix King and use Great Weapons to do so. That said, GW elves still take from European influences since they're Tolkein inspired elves.

As far as I can tell, Egyptians also lack Halberds/polearms due to the fact that the majority of Egyptian military for the longest time was Charioteers and Runners. The Sea Peoples were able to defeat the Egyptians due to this fact by using massed infantry formations.

Many of the decisions that gw makes when designing an army book are not based on the historical inspiration for that army.

That said, I think that 13pt saurus with gw's is perfectly fine. Look at warriors of chaos who, for 17pts, get better armor, ws, init, and have options for marks to make them even more Killy.

As far as history is concerned, I feel that the Aztecs certainly had potent specialty weapons that could be represented by +2 str or possibly +1 and then armor piercing.

Basically I want to run MSU saurus with gw's and beat face :p

Well, sure, but then we come back to my original argument: guys who guard stuff should probably fight defensively.

Warriors versus Saurus:

+2 WS: a big deal. If Saurus were WS4, I think it'd be a little more fair; they don't need it, but they are supposed to be, ya' know, bred for fighting. And WS4 isn't that big of a deal anyway.

+4 Init: not a big deal. Until you're unit's small enough that your opponent's attacks may actually reduce yours, Initiative is meaningless.
That said, Saurus and Warriors are expensive enough that they don't pile on in huge droves.

+1 Armour: relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but still sort of significant.

More equipment/Mark options: it'd be cool if Saurus could have more equipment options, but I don't think this sort of thing lends much to Warriors being better. It gives them a little edge, sure, but in the end it's still just widening the point difference.

So...all in all, I'd say that the 4pt difference is pretty accurate.

I'm sure the Aztecs did have what amounted to extra-large war clubs. And as for the atlatl...I dunno. I mean, it saw a lot of use in hunting. Not sure how practical it would be in a fight. Maybe GW felt it would be harder to reconcile high stone-age tech with space-age tech than regular stone-age to space-age?

Once again, though...I'm torn between saying "Saurus should get big clubs, 'cause it makes sense", and saying "Saurus shouldn't get big clubs, 'cause it's too convenient".

Cold blood is a big bonus in the saurus to warrior match up. It's about the same as 1-2 points of leadership.

Isn't the Atlatl from the naltwatl (sp?) people, and not the aztecs?

-Matt

That's true; forgot about Cold-Blooded. That tips the scales back closer to what they are as of now.

I do believe that atlatl was used by even older cultures, though.
And that it is from the atlatl that all modern are derivatives of.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Isn't the Atlatl from the naltwatl (sp?) people, and not the aztecs?

-Matt

http://www.aztec-history.net/aztec_weapons

Please note the section named MAIN AZTEC WEAPONS:

"The Aztecs had weapons like dart and spear throwers which were called Atlatl. The Atlatl is a very effective weapon that can often be seen with a warrior. Lots of murals or paintings depict warriors carrying this weapon in their hands. "

@Warpsolution: Halberds are actually an incredible defensive weapon. Most halberds were actually reinforced with metal rims along the shaft, which were specifically added to block weapons. As well, the hooks(designed to grapple and drag down cavalry) and points(designed to combat spears and lances) on top made the weapon exceedingly versatile, regardless of how well trained you were. The +1 St from GW doesn't nearly cover how well designed the halberd is or how effective it is in combat or in defending someone. We're talking about a weapon that, literally in a single stroke, in the hands of a peasant ended the Burgundian Wars.

Sorry if I seem to be pontificating, weapon design history is one of my passions.

Platuan4th wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Isn't the Atlatl from the naltwatl (sp?) people, and not the aztecs?

-Matt

http://www.aztec-history.net/aztec_weapons

Please note the section named MAIN AZTEC WEAPONS:

"The Aztecs had weapons like dart and spear throwers which were called Atlatl. The Atlatl is a very effective weapon that can often be seen with a warrior. Lots of murals or paintings depict warriors carrying this weapon in their hands. "

Effective weapons are often adopted by nearby peoples. I pulled out one of my old archeology books, and found the proper spelling; Nahuatl. Which was the language the Aztecs spoke; effectively, Aztec = Nahuatl.

-Matt

@Platuan: I suppose I'm thinking about more day-to-day defensive techniques (literally "guarding") than battlefield applications.
Games Workshop's halberd does disappoint me; at the very least, you should be able to choose between +1 S and Fight in Extra Rank.
Any kind of tip o' the hat to weapons with superior reach would be cool too.

And while the halberd and its kin were great, the more manageable sword still wins the day.

Though the bodyguard-fighting style with a flamberge is a pretty neat idea.

I figure the atlatl is the blowpipe of the skinks. About that equivalent.

Saurus with great weapons would make Kroxigors kind of redundant, since they're basically 3W/3A Saurus already, the Great Weapons are all that set them apart (aside from the Skink affinity and M6 anyway).

Warpsolution wrote:Are you kidding? A 25% to cause a wound (against WS3-6, T4) is way better than a 16% chance to negate a wound.

If you can actually keep enough ranks to benefit from spears, in my experience against any decent combat units enough Saurus would die that you wont keep the bonus for more than one combat round.

That is true, I suppose.

But saving one sixth more guys isn't going to keep you in the fight for much longer.

In most cases, I'll spend the 20-30pts to down some more guys. Especially considering that the Saurus will probably be getting back up again (or not dying in the first place, depending on which Life spells go off).

And besides, Saurus aren't just pitted against Khornate Warriors and White Lions all day. Sometimes, you gotta' fight some Skavenslaves. Or Night Goblins. Or Halberdiers.

Couple points:

If any race is "stuck" with what they got, it's the Lizardmen. They spawn from their pools knowing everything they're ever going to know. If the proper use of a nunchuck wasn't in that, tough luck.

Our own planet had widely dispersed melee weapon choices even long after we had co-mingled. Traditions are hard to break. A new weapon developed in one spot could take centuries to be adopted by an adjacent empire of the same species, same forefathers, same everything except language and ruler.

Most weapon choices are for balance first, with a side of fluff. You can always find a fluff reason if you want, but it's really balance. Liz can't use GW cuz it doesn't balance with their tails and/or they weren't spawned knowing how to use them and they're piss poor learners.

DukeRustfield wrote:Couple points:

If any race is "stuck" with what they got, it's the Lizardmen. They spawn from their pools knowing everything they're ever going to know. If the proper use of a nunchuck wasn't in that, tough luck.

Our own planet had widely dispersed melee weapon choices even long after we had co-mingled. Traditions are hard to break. A new weapon developed in one spot could take centuries to be adopted by an adjacent empire of the same species, same forefathers, same everything except language and ruler.

Most weapon choices are for balance first, with a side of fluff. You can always find a fluff reason if you want, but it's really balance. Liz can't use GW cuz it doesn't balance with their tails and/or they weren't spawned knowing how to use them and they're piss poor learners.

Liz do use GW... Saurus characters have them, as do Chakax.
Dont see why Saurus with GW would be broken either, it sure isnt the case with WoC or Dwarves.
I am fine with the things the way it is though, I like my Kroxigors.

Well, Core Dwarf Warriors are S5, so that's one difference.
And Warriors use halberds to take advantage of their I.
So, they'd be the only commonly seen S6 Core.

Really, great weapons "take advantage" of the Saurus' I1, since the weakness gained is redundant, and the bonus isn't.

It'd be brutal, to be sure.
@DukeRustField: the Lizardmen don't change, that's true. But I'm saying that, what with the space-age technology used in their creation, that the Old Ones should have probably just stuck great weapons on them.

Warpsolution wrote:Well, Core Dwarf Warriors are S5, so that's one difference.
And Warriors use halberds to take advantage of their I.
So, they'd be the only commonly seen S6 Core.

Really, great weapons "take advantage" of the Saurus' I1, since the weakness gained is redundant, and the bonus isn't.

It'd be brutal, to be sure.
@DukeRustField: the Lizardmen don't change, that's true. But I'm saying that, what with the space-age technology used in their creation, that the Old Ones should have probably just stuck great weapons on them.

That's the point, it's not about fluff. It's about balance. "Reducing" an I1 unit to...I1 doesn't hurt much. So either GW would have to be a very pricey addition per unit, or they don't get em.

Old Ones are just fluff. And fluff is absolutely muteable. They could have a pathological fear of really big sticks, in fact, it was their trying to give Saurus Warriors GW en masse that caused the collapse of their portal and introduced Chaos to the world!!! The chars who have GW were the only few who got them before the failed GW experiment. Poof. There. Fluff done

Besides, units aren't balanced against other units. Races are balanced against other races in totality. So saying "X unit from another race has it" is irrelevant. They might need it to balance their race as a whole. I don't think anyone can argue Lizardmen are a weak race.