Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I keep reading reference to the Chosen Star. Can someone please give me an example? Thank you.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I keep reading reference to the Chosen Star. Can someone please give me an example? Thank you.

Big block of tzeench chosen, champ with favor of the gods, banner that causes terror, BSB with MR3. Then add in 2 shrines. The shrines let you re-roll things you've already got; the favor lets you add or subtract 1. It doesn't take very long to generate the stubborn 4+ ward bonus.
That gives the chosen a 3+ ward.
WS6 3+ Ward and 4+(or 3+ or 2+ armor).
Very tough to kill unit.

I've countered it successfully with lore of metal (wounds on 4+/3+/2+ with no armor; or the 5+ remove the model spell).
Using shadow magic to drop their movement and ignore them works pretty well too.

Chosen star is so many points, the army has to be designed around it.

-Matt

Matt, thanks for the example.

My follow up question is this, what about just casting Dwellers on the unit? I know you said they can re-roll things, but can they re-roll characteristic tests?

Couple that with the lore of shadow - to strength spell and it doesn't seem like they would be that big of a threat.

For instance, in the prelims for 'Ard Boyz, I cast - to strength on Archeons (sp?) Chaos Knight unit and then dwellers. I insta killed Archeon and half of his 6 knights on turn 1. I felt really bad for the kid and I told him so. But he was cool with it and understood it was 'Ard boyz.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Chosen star is so many points, the army has to be designed around it.

Which means point denial works perfectly, at the end of the day chosen are just mv4 so your expensive units can avoid them and go for more squishy bits of the army while you throw cheap stuff at them.

As O&G, a warboss with the trickster's shard in a wyvern can at least make his points just going at the shrines.

Since he's Stubborn, he can reform to 1 gigantic rank. Good luck avoiding that.

@DarkAngel: is anything"that big of a threat" when you drop it's stat down wit a Hex and then cast a spell that makes them save with that stat or die? I don't think so.

Also, the re-roll is on the Eye of the Gods table, not for other random stuff. Read carefully; it's there.

There are ways to deal with them, but none of them are reliable and none of them are all that great.
You mentioned Teclis and another lvl4 in the other thread. That's one way, and it still isn't all that great.

Show me a unit that is as tough as these guys. Anywhere. And, if you like, show me a second way to deal with them. Double-lvl4's isn't exactly a common choice, since it's really not that useful in most lists (one lvl4 can devour your power pool easily enough, so why spend another 200+pts? It's a decent idea, but it's a one-trick pony).

It's not a 1 trick pony. I mentioned in the other thread that there are many more spell combos that come out of having a life and a shadow mage in the same army.

Also, it's not about being able to cast all of your spells in one magic phase, it's having the right spells at the right time for the right situation.

I rarely cast close to all of the spells I can cast with those two mages, but I make sure I can cast the 1, 2, or 3 that I need each magic phase.

And you're right, there isn't any unit that is that big of a threat when you hex them and then dwellers them. Thus, it's a pretty viable solution given the information I already told you.

I don't mean it can only do one thing; it's a versatile (and expensive) tool, but with that many points in your magic, it seems like you'll win by the phase or die by it.

And I was detailing the main explanation for why most people don't field two Lord-level casters. Several hundred points for what usually amounts to four extra spells isn't usually worth it. It is, of course, when you're running High Elves.

So, I suppose I'll ask the following: is this it? Is this the super-combo that will break this game until new rules either destroy it or provide us with something better?

Like I said, it's a strong set up. But I doubt it's the set up.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I keep reading reference to the Chosen Star. Can someone please give me an example? Thank you.

Big block of tzeench chosen, champ with favor of the gods, banner that causes terror, BSB with MR3. Then add in 2 shrines. The shrines let you re-roll things you've already got; the favor lets you add or subtract 1. It doesn't take very long to generate the stubborn 4+ ward bonus.
That gives the chosen a 3+ ward.
WS6 3+ Ward and 4+(or 3+ or 2+ armor).

Is the MR(3) on the exalted in there so they have a lot of magic res? Or to help skew the chart? Because if it's the former, it seems excessive given how quickly you can reach 3+ ward (in which case MR(1) would max out your ward vs magic); if it's the latter, I don't think I agree that it works, as the unit doesn't have MR(3) itself, but simply benefits from it. As the BRB says, you can have MR from multiple sources, but only use the highest one. So I call a little shenanigans there.

For those chosenstar players out there (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE), note that you don't want to take #12 on your chosen to start, as it won't benefit the characters in there. Instead, you want to take +1A or S (I think those are the two), in which case you should likely hit 3+ ward with the first warshrine to target them, but definitely the second.

@ DAH - You're talking about an enormous investment in points in lords, and I'm guessing you're thinking that 3k is a tournament size. In my experience, the vast amount of tournaments are 2000-2500, making double level 4's (especially if one of them is Teclis!) a tighter fit. Not impossible, but a significant investment in a phase that can fall on its face. Though of course HE have the banner of cheese that makes your magic phase quite a bit more effective ...

- Salvage

My local meta plays the local tournaments at 3000 pts because the TO is preparing and focusing our local gaming groups to be better prepared for 'Ard Boys every year and any GTs that the gamers go to. So, as I've said before, it's a very 'ard tourney scene where I play. Which is why I don't feel bad taking Teclis or the other things I take.

On the other hand, we have done a 2200 or 2250 pt tourney (I don't remember) and yes, I totally agree with you at that level that one lord level caster is plenty. And during that tournament, I only took one.

I don't want to disclose my AB list online at the moment (not that it's the end all be all, but I'd like it to be a surprise for the semis), but after I'm done with AB at what ever level I stop at I'll post my list and explain why I'm saying what I'm saying and how it works.

The two mage combo plus my units did well for me at the prelims.

But also, I don't think the banner of sorcery is cheese. How come dwarf engineers and what not aren't called cheese lol? They make their shooting all that much more effective.

Every army has it's strengths and weaknesses and it's incumbent upon the player to capitalize on the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses. Hence, I am magic heavy and I take stuff to mitigate my low armor and toughness.

I'd love to meet all of you in real life and play some games though. I have a feeling we'd all get along and that sometimes the internet can hamper good communication.

Banner of Sorcery isnt cheesy at all, just like Focused Rumination on slanns isnt cheesy imo.

They spend LOTS of points to cast like that, and its very difficult for a slann to make his points back. (most slanns run over 500 points).

Cant you also just use teclis with lore of shadow and miasma/pit the unit. I know its not perfect but it should remove a nice chunk and doesnt need double lords. (Yes again its using cheese to beat cheese, but thats how the cookie crumbles)

My issue with the banner of sorcery is that it's very very useful for making the magic phase work, yet items like it are very very unevenly distributed across the armybooks. I feel the same about extra dispel dice in armies that aren't dwarfs - with the spirit totem gone (Thanks GW ) that mostly means warrior priest spam in Empire. But then I dislike the magic phase and would be happy to have us all be screwed by the winds of magic all the time - a plague of low winds rolls for everyone, I say!

Also, the BoS rubs me the wrong way because all things that are auto-includes make me a little nauseous, and I'm not sure that I've seen a Helf list without one.

- Salvage

Warpsolution wrote:Since he's Stubborn, he can reform to 1 gigantic rank. Good luck avoiding that.

All chosenstars I've played against are in the 15-20 mini range (never played WoC over 2500)

Plus, all you have to do is flank-charge that thin line and chances are you'll win combat every turn (flank+rank bonus) and he can only throw you a single mini to counter that.

jouso wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:Since he's Stubborn, he can reform to 1 gigantic rank. Good luck avoiding that.

All chosenstars I've played against are in the 15-20 mini range (never played WoC over 2500)

Plus, all you have to do is flank-charge that thin line and chances are you'll win combat every turn (flank+rank bonus) and he can only throw you a single mini to counter that.

Until he combat reforms to face you and rips your face off.

Holding one or two turns is all you need. The key is throwing things a fraction of their cost, and have them chase minnow units while you hack at the rest of his army.

Boss Salvage wrote:Also, the BoS rubs me the wrong way because all things that are auto-includes make me a little nauseous, and I'm not sure that I've seen a Helf list without one.

I think that most High Elves lists auto-include the Banner of Sorcery because their only viable Lord option is the Archmage. If the Prince would be better, then maybe less High Elves lists would rely on their Archmage, making the Banner of Sorcery less of an auto-include.

Not to mention with the way power and dispell dice are generated an addition D3 power dice is obscenely good.

While the Warriors I play around here don't use all that in the unit, no MR3 BSB or Terror Banner, they do reliably get that 4+ Stubborn result. Those Tzeentchy Chosen are pretty scary, but I've never had a problem dealing with them. One power scrolled Dreaded Thirteenth and that unit has lost about half its total, usually only run about 30 strong. After that I just feed it slaves, which they still take a while to kill (read as a turn, 2 if I'm lucky). After that either throw in another atempt at Thirteenth if I need to or gently pass on wounds either from plague or warp-lightning cannons. They still fail saves and knocking off a couple of guys a turn whittles the unit in no time. All that said the unit is really good at what it does, and has forced me to change my playstyle to counter it.

Someone mentioned a tactic with the chosen star that puts them in a single rank, really wide and then just marching forward destroying everything because they can withstand the damage because they are stubborn.

Has anyone seen this? And how long is the rank? Also, do they start like that or reform to that? because if it's a reform they can only move up to twice their move and I don't see how it could be too long. Also, wouldn't running into buildings or impassible terrain be an issue?

If I've read it correctly its using swift reform to break the 25-30 man unit into one long line across the board. Depending on the army making them run could be easy, I've seen Warriors and Daemons do this to Chosen Stars, as stubborn only works for break tests. Neither here nor there. At 30 long, 25mm each, your looking at 750mm of front edge. Personally I don't see the point in such a tactic as your now more open to terrain and any single unit can hold you up, saving the intended target.

arinnoor wrote:If I've read it correctly its using swift reform to break the 25-30 man unit into one long line across the board. Depending on the army making them run could be easy, I've seen Warriors and Daemons do this to Chosen Stars, as stubborn only works for break tests. Neither here nor there. At 30 long, 25mm each, your looking at 750mm of front edge. Personally I don't see the point in such a tactic as your now more open to terrain and any single unit can hold you up, saving the intended target.

Thats an illegal reform iirc. Dont have my rulebook with my, but you cant reform in such a way that any model would move more then its base movement...

So if they want to spend 2-3 turns reforming into one line let them imo.

That is why I was unsure if that action is the intended. It was merely the impression I recieved from it.

That's what I meant, more or less. Obviously, you wouldn't reform so wide as to get stuck on buildings and what-have-you.
If you're facing a list that can't deal with your Chosenstar in any way other than how they deal with normal units, it's an option, much like the Troll Swing.
Just one more way that the unit can strip away a few tactics that you might employ in neutralizing it.

Like it's been said before, aside from the Curse, there's no one effective way to deal with these guys. I faced off against them in a 1000pt tourney, and it was not pretty. Granted, they had the bare minimum core and one lonely character with very little stuff on him, but that's really all it needed.

As for all this other awesome stuff (Banner of Socerery, Van Horstmen's Speculum, Power Scroll, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones), I'm with Boss Salvage on this one.
When I play against empire, I'm expecting to see a War Altar. And if I do, the dude on it has the Speculum.

And that's boring. Now, I'll also agree with DarkAngelHopeful that players should bring the good stuff, so my issue isn't with unoriginal players, it's with unbalanced game design. All the stuff should be good.

Once again, though: in the ideal world, the best competitive player of any game will be the player who follows the rules as they were intended to be, leaving the player who skews the purpose and tone of the game with loopholes and silly number tricks (...like the Chosenstar) in the dust. Because, in the idea game, the Rules as Intended and the Rules as Written are one and the same.

No other effective way to deal with these guys? I beg to differ. I once saw deamons run these guys off the table, using Icon of Despair + the Masque to lower their leadership to crap, and Karios to force panic via wounds or a spell that forces panic if it was an option. LD is one of the big things the deamon player around here uses to beat almost everyone, as its something no one can stop other then by killing the things that do it, which are well protected.

The I must say the WOC were silly for not giving them the Banner of Rage.

The most effective way I know to deal with them is the "Test or Die" spells and the 13th.

@Wargamejunkie: You'd need a BSB to give them the Wailing Standard, then, since it's essential to to the combo.
As for the "test or die" spells, they have to deal with S4(or 5) and I5. Not ideal stuff. It works. Just not that well.

@Arinnoor: I said "no one effective way", not "no effective combination of two or more special characters and two magic items".
Even then, though. The BSB and the Masque aren't that hard to kill. Tough, sure, but Exalted heroes are tougher yet.

By tough I meant he hides them well ensure their survivability until he wants them to be used. And as far as no one effective way, Empire has done a good job killing them just through shooting. The guy running it says its ust like shooting space marines. Force them to take enough saves and they will start failing them.

My main point is that around here that unit, while scary in one hand, has been dealt with time and again as players found way to beat it. Its good, I would include it in whatever WoC list I was running, but loading it with that many items is unnecessary.

You mean, loading it up with the Banner and the Favour and a Shrine is unnecessary? Then you run into the 7th edition problem: where you end up with MR3 or Terror, instead of something good.

Without all of this, I'd never field Chosen over regular Warriors.

Obviously if you force them to make "enough" saves, they'll fail them. Sure. But my point is: this is the toughest nut to crack in all of Warhammer. Period.

Let's say an Empire player has three mortars and two Rocket Batteries.With a dead-on hit:
Each mortar will approx. kill 1.5 guys (or .75, if they're T5 now).
Each Battery will approx. kill 4.6 (or 2.5).

So that's 9-13 bodies if your shooting phase was more or less perfect. If you halve that (still more than generous with the Artillery die), that's around 4-6. That's not good.

It could work. But the only reason I'd ever try it is if I had no better plan.

As I said: nothing is an effective counter to the Chosenstar. There are counters, but they are not effective. Operating at 30% is not effective.

@ Warpsolution
All the WOC Death Stars had the BSB in the unit.

The reason I said test or die spells was because it will get around the 2+ ward against all damage based magic because of the MR3.

Your other "decent" option is saturation of armor ignoring shooting/attacks.

I don't think the BSB is a requirement, but making them immune to panic is probably a good idea; it's not like they're going to charge into something they can't beat down.

And I'll side with Salvage on the MR; I'm not convinced that the table lets you re-roll that result until someone shows me a quote. And once again, MR1 should do the job.
The Big Spells certainly trim their numbers down, but my point is that the Chosen don't really have a weakness there.

Ignoring armour is nice, but I don't think there's a unit out there that can stand up to them.
And no one can say "a unit of whatever with Flesh to Stone, Okkam's Mind Razor, and three Wyssan's Wildforms could do it". I'm talking about less obvious situations, where the Chosen player's defensive magic is dragging down your magic phase somewhat.

So, in closing, I'll say once again: this unit is not invincible. If it was, Warhammer would be dead. But it is the single toughest thing out there, an exercise in extreme point-denial.